Fire DB

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Re: Fire DB

Postby Pavel Bure on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:19 am

joopen wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
JoseCuervo wrote:
SteelCityFan wrote:I've always been a Disco Dan fan BUT if he starts Engellend over Despres one more time, regardless of the team we're playing, I'm going to have to start taking this thread seriously


1. DB and Shero both discuss the personnel and conclude who gets to play, so it isn't just HCDB who is deciding to sit Despres.
2. While it may have been minor, Despres was injured in practice. Even minor injuries can impact a player's performance.

Yeah the injury while most likely minor would probably be the main reason to have him sit. Especially against a team like Philly that if it sensed he was injured at all would go all that more hard at him IMO.

Fingernail...

Never mind.

FIRE HIM!!!
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Re: Fire DB

Postby meecrofilm on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:25 am

Despres was already playing on the scratch-pair before his "injury" happened.

We'll see who plays tomorrow. If anything I bet Desprse is in for Eaton, even though he's been better than Engo.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby mpc71 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:21 am

I really don't like Dan Bylsma and his "system" are feel like he is leading this team to yet another early playoff exit.

Here's a breakdown on the number of goals that would have been needed to win every game so far this season:
2, 4, 6, 5, 2, 5, 1, 2, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 3, 2, 4, 7, 2, 4, 7, 5, 7, 4, 5

That's
-3 games we needed 7 goals
-1 game we needed 6 goals
-4 games we needed 5 goals
-7 games we needed 4 goals
-3 games we needed 3 goals
-5 games we needed 2 goals
-1 game we needed 1 goal (shutout)

That means, on average, this team needs to score 3.95 GPG just to win. I honestly don't believe the defense is the problem. It's Bylsma's system and forcing the team to score nearly 4 GPG just to win. It's "exciting" hockey, but sure as heck won't get us wins in the playoffs in a 7 games series. Scoring 4 goals a game on average vs the same team 7 games in a row will just lead to an early playoff exit.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby joopen on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:10 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
joopen wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
JoseCuervo wrote:
SteelCityFan wrote:I've always been a Disco Dan fan BUT if he starts Engellend over Despres one more time, regardless of the team we're playing, I'm going to have to start taking this thread seriously


1. DB and Shero both discuss the personnel and conclude who gets to play, so it isn't just HCDB who is deciding to sit Despres.
2. While it may have been minor, Despres was injured in practice. Even minor injuries can impact a player's performance.

Yeah the injury while most likely minor would probably be the main reason to have him sit. Especially against a team like Philly that if it sensed he was injured at all would go all that more hard at him IMO.

Fingernail...

Never mind.

FIRE HIM!!!


You can have an opinion that he needs to sit games without having to rely on this "injury". It was not the reason he sat last night. I am just wondering if we are going to get the same line of "he is too inexperienced to play in the playoffs" again this year when they had a chance to get him experience while he is playing well. He can't be trusted without experience but he can't play because he can't be trusted in big games? Sounds like a vicious cycle to me. How do you break it without letting the kid play in big games.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Great58 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:40 pm

Philly fans are having the same conversations in their newspaper comments sections. And they've been to the finals more recently then us, didn't have a first round playoffs meltdown last year, don't have a flawed PK.....
I guess hockey fans are alike everywhere.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Froggy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:19 pm

mpc71 wrote:I really don't like Dan Bylsma and his "system" are feel like he is leading this team to yet another early playoff exit.

Here's a breakdown on the number of goals that would have been needed to win every game so far this season:
2, 4, 6, 5, 2, 5, 1, 2, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 3, 2, 4, 7, 2, 4, 7, 5, 7, 4, 5

That's
-3 games we needed 7 goals
-1 game we needed 6 goals
-4 games we needed 5 goals
-7 games we needed 4 goals
-3 games we needed 3 goals
-5 games we needed 2 goals
-1 game we needed 1 goal (shutout)

That means, on average, this team needs to score 3.95 GPG just to win. I honestly don't believe the defense is the problem. It's Bylsma's system and forcing the team to score nearly 4 GPG just to win. It's "exciting" hockey, but sure as heck won't get us wins in the playoffs in a 7 games series. Scoring 4 goals a game on average vs the same team 7 games in a row will just lead to an early playoff exit.


this is a solid post
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:42 pm

I don't understand. Defense isn't the problem but forcing the team to score nearly 4 goals per game is the problem? Sounds like the same thing. I guess you're trying to say that the personnel isn't the problem, that the play style is?
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Re: Fire DB

Postby She'sTheFastest on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:49 pm

Bylsma STILL wears stupid glasses. He needs axed.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby mpc71 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:29 am

Idoit40fans wrote:I don't understand. Defense isn't the problem but forcing the team to score nearly 4 goals per game is the problem? Sounds like the same thing. I guess you're trying to say that the personnel isn't the problem, that the play style is?


In the regular season, it's much easier to score 4 goals per game on average. When you have a competent coach that can make adjustments and come up with a solid game plan, you just aren't going to score 4 goals + per game on average in the playoffs. It's also no longer a coincidence that Vokoun is having the worst season of his career while playing goalie for the Penguins and makes Fluery look even better IMO.

11/12 we needed 5, 9, 9, 4, 3, 6.0 goals each game to win. That's 6 goals per game on average, which is higher than the regular season, but on par with the style of play and "system" the coach had in place (outscore the opponent and play minimal defense).

10/11 we needed 1, 6, 3, 3, 9, 5, 2 goals to beat the TBL which is 4.14 Goals per game on average. Leading to an early playoff exit.

09/10 we needed 6, 2, 3, 5, 5, 4, 4, 2, 3, 2, 5, 6 goals per game to beat the Sens and Habs. That's 3.91 GPG on average and lead to an early playoff exit.

08/09 we needed 2, 2, 6, 3, 3, 4, 4, 2, 3, 5, 3, 3, 6, 4, 4, 4, 3, 5, 4, 4, 4, 2, 4, 3, 2, goals per game to win the cup. That's 3.71 goals per game on average to win the cup in the playoffs.

You really can't compare this season's regular season stats with the playoff stats, however there is a direct correlation that Bylsma has led this team further and further away from being a cup contender to just a stats and individual award winning team. minus the presidents trophy. This season, we have given up more goals per game than any of the previous seasons, which makes you realize that he hasn't changed the team to be better, just to "Play Penguins hockey" whatever the heck that is. There is no accountability and Bylsma would rather accept playing games where we win 7-6 and 6-5 over a few games where we lose 2-1 or 3-2. The fact is, this is why Fleury, Vokoun, and B.J have been "shaky" in the playoffs and even during the regular season. The personnel can't do anything but go all in with Bylsma's system because he doesn't like to change the way the team plays or make adjustments. Paul Martin is a great example of completely abandoning everything he knew about defense to play an offensive style of defense as he's never scored more than 5 goals in his career and is on pace to double that amount and break his career high point total in a shortened season. Now that Martin is all of a sudden playing Bylsma's system, he is flourishing, which doesn't help us defensively. Bylsma darn near ruined Michalek who is now playing amazing in Phoenix once again. He seems to hate rookies and never gave Tangradi a real change which kinda looks like might happen to Despres. At some point if you're Despres, you gotta wonder what you need to do to stay on the team and will start being fearful of making a mistake. It's more like, Awe shucks,we'll get-em next time or man I really wanted that game or just go out and play Penguins hockey. When you have Chris Kunitz, Crosby, Neal, Letang, and Paul Martin all leading the league in certain categories while giving up 4 GPG on average, you are doing so at the cost of ruining the teams post season success. It would be different if the Penguins started off 17-0 as they did in 92-93 or even had the Blackhawks current streak, but the team has shown it can only win games if we can score 4+ goals per game which won't happen in the playoffs. Bylsma doesn't put this team in the best position to win games. I don't think many other coaches would do a worse job that Bylsma unless you are too much of a disciplinarian.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby penmyst on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:51 am

Great58 wrote:Philly fans are having the same conversations in their newspaper comments sections. And they've been to the finals more recently then us, didn't have a first round playoffs meltdown last year, don't have a flawed PK.....
I guess hockey fans are alike everywhere.


How so? They like to see their team win? They like to see their team get in the ballpark of reasonable expectations?

That's a Philly team that, as you say, has been to the finals more recently, while having dismantled and embarrassed the Anointed Pittsburgh Penguins with the NHL's favorite Sid just last playoffs.

They are below .500 this season, have been horribly uneven, and have they really solved that goalie problem? They are riding Bryzgalov so hard, that even if they manage to get things together and stumble into the playoffs... they might not have a goalie capable of putting together a solid stretch.

A team that is not playing to expectations of their fan base.

Here in Pittsburgh, no knowledgeable fan gives two squirts of piss about the regular season records. They know that this team will not be judged by that, but WILL and SHOULD be judged by playoff performance. Of which, the Pens have disappointed 3 straight years, and seem to be exhibiting nearly the identical problems of systemic play that plagued them last year and made them a laughingstock in Philadelphia.

A team that is looking more like they'll underperform again come playoff time, rather than play up to form.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby count2infinity on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:37 am

I'm certainly excited to see what this team does in the playoffs as a healthy team. We haven't had a healthy team in a while.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:18 pm

mpc71 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I don't understand. Defense isn't the problem but forcing the team to score nearly 4 goals per game is the problem? Sounds like the same thing. I guess you're trying to say that the personnel isn't the problem, that the play style is?

things


I stopped reading when I got to the wall of text, but it seems like the summary of your post was "yes".
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:20 pm

penmyst wrote:
Great58 wrote:Philly fans are having the same conversations in their newspaper comments sections. And they've been to the finals more recently then us, didn't have a first round playoffs meltdown last year, don't have a flawed PK.....
I guess hockey fans are alike everywhere.


How so? They like to see their team win? They like to see their team get in the ballpark of reasonable expectations?

That's a Philly team that, as you say, has been to the finals more recently, while having dismantled and embarrassed the Anointed Pittsburgh Penguins with the NHL's favorite Sid just last playoffs.

They are below .500 this season, have been horribly uneven, and have they really solved that goalie problem? They are riding Bryzgalov so hard, that even if they manage to get things together and stumble into the playoffs... they might not have a goalie capable of putting together a solid stretch.

A team that is not playing to expectations of their fan base.

Here in Pittsburgh, no knowledgeable fan gives two squirts of piss about the regular season records. They know that this team will not be judged by that, but WILL and SHOULD be judged by playoff performance. Of which, the Pens have disappointed 3 straight years, and seem to be exhibiting nearly the identical problems of systemic play that plagued them last year and made them a laughingstock in Philadelphia.

A team that is looking more like they'll underperform again come playoff time, rather than play up to form.


So yeah, the same thing as Philly. They hold their team to a higher standard than Pittsburgh. They don't settle for rebuilds at all. They expect to compete for the cup every season.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Pitt87 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:05 pm

mpc71 wrote:I really don't like Dan Bylsma and his "system" are feel like he is leading this team to yet another early playoff exit.

Here's a breakdown on the number of goals that would have been needed to win every game so far this season:
2, 4, 6, 5, 2, 5, 1, 2, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 3, 2, 4, 7, 2, 4, 7, 5, 7, 4, 5

That's
-3 games we needed 7 goals
-1 game we needed 6 goals
-4 games we needed 5 goals
-7 games we needed 4 goals
-3 games we needed 3 goals
-5 games we needed 2 goals
-1 game we needed 1 goal (shutout)

That means, on average, this team needs to score 3.95 GPG just to win. I honestly don't believe the defense is the problem. It's Bylsma's system and forcing the team to score nearly 4 GPG just to win. It's "exciting" hockey, but sure as heck won't get us wins in the playoffs in a 7 games series. Scoring 4 goals a game on average vs the same team 7 games in a row will just lead to an early playoff exit.


We'd only need to score more goals the the other team 4 times in a series, not 7... :thumb:

I understand what you're getting at, but winning every game is definitely not the goal or any team. Except Chicago.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby penmyst on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:33 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:So yeah, the same thing as Philly. They hold their team to a higher standard than Pittsburgh. They don't settle for rebuilds at all. They expect to compete for the cup every season.


Which I honestly prefer.

Much better than being a Columbus fan, where the only expectations are how much can they increase their chance of getting the #1 lottery pick.

So excuse me if I don't look down on hockey fans in some towns that expect a Cup contender every year.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:36 pm

penmyst wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:So yeah, the same thing as Philly. They hold their team to a higher standard than Pittsburgh. They don't settle for rebuilds at all. They expect to compete for the cup every season.


Which I honestly prefer.

Much better than being a Columbus fan, where the only expectations are how much can they increase their chance of getting the #1 lottery pick.

So excuse me if I don't look down on hockey fans in some towns that expect a Cup contender every year.


...What? So what were you arguing then? I thought you were saying that Philly fans sucked.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby SteelCityFan on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:46 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:
SteelCityFan wrote:I've always been a Disco Dan fan BUT if he starts Engellend over Despres one more time, regardless of the team we're playing, I'm going to have to start taking this thread seriously


1. DB and Shero both discuss the personnel and conclude who gets to play, so it isn't just HCDB who is deciding to sit Despres.
2. While it may have been minor, Despres was injured in practice. Even minor injuries can impact a player's performance.


I can see Ray Shero having some input into who he thinks should sit and who should start, but I seriously doubt he has more of a say than Disco Dan. Unless of course he's trying to be the Jerry Jones of hockey.

With or without the injury, DB has had a history this season of starting a "tough guy" defenseman over Despres against certain teams. Despres needs to play in every situation simply because he needs the experience and is a better defenseman than the tough guys
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Re: Fire DB

Postby jprolley on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:18 pm

lets put the 4th line out against toronto's top line while trying to hold a one goal lead in the third period.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby meow on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:26 pm

Let's just dust this old thread off why don't we.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Desiato on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:36 am

meow wrote:Let's just dust this old thread off why don't we.


Why? The Pens won! There's no problem. They just need to obtain Iginla, Jagr, Alfredsson, and then flip the switch to turn on the D. If they played D now, everyone would know what they have planned for the playoffs.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:57 am

Desiato wrote:
meow wrote:Let's just dust this old thread off why don't we.


Why? The Pens won! There's no problem. They just need to obtain Iginla, Jagr, Alfredsson, and then flip the switch to turn on the D. If they played D now, everyone would know what they have planned for the playoffs.


I can only pray that Shero doesn't give away a top prospect for a rental like Iginla or Perry, or Alfy. None of those guys will help what's ailing this team.

We need bottom 6 grit, we need Vitale in the lineup, we need Glass in the press box, we need Despres playing all the time, we need Engo in the press box (at least ONCE, just to see how we do), we need new PK'rs, (hello Sid?)

....and most of all, we need a system that isn't reminiscent of pond hockey. We need a PK that actually clears a man from the front of the net. We need a breakout that doesn't involve a stretch pass. We need a PP that actually has a clue and purpose, and a coach that knows what players to dress and play in certain situations.

The acquisition of WHOEVER, won't help this team until Bylsma gets his head out of his sphincter.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby LAChrisPaul on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:18 am

Froggy wrote:
mpc71 wrote:I really don't like Dan Bylsma and his "system" are feel like he is leading this team to yet another early playoff exit.

Here's a breakdown on the number of goals that would have been needed to win every game so far this season:
2, 4, 6, 5, 2, 5, 1, 2, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 3, 2, 4, 7, 2, 4, 7, 5, 7, 4, 5

That's
-3 games we needed 7 goals
-1 game we needed 6 goals
-4 games we needed 5 goals
-7 games we needed 4 goals
-3 games we needed 3 goals
-5 games we needed 2 goals
-1 game we needed 1 goal (shutout)

That means, on average, this team needs to score 3.95 GPG just to win. I honestly don't believe the defense is the problem. It's Bylsma's system and forcing the team to score nearly 4 GPG just to win. It's "exciting" hockey, but sure as heck won't get us wins in the playoffs in a 7 games series. Scoring 4 goals a game on average vs the same team 7 games in a row will just lead to an early playoff exit.


this is a solid post


Sorry, but this isn't a solid post. That's how many goals are required to win EVERY game, which no one does. We don't score that much on average, yet we're still 17-8, so that stat is clearly invalid in this argument, and winning better than 2/3 games IS enough to win in a 7 game series, or anything, ALL THE TIME.

The team clearly has defensive problems right now, but this isn't the argument in favor of that, or the answer.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Pens4Life on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:04 am

The biggest problem with the coach and maybe even the ownership is - they see just old and young players,not so much as good and bad,or good and not soo good! Thats why Im afraid we still might lose Despres - who is D of the future!

also I agree,we should primary search for an upgrade on bottom lines and 3rd pairing physical veteran D,who is not slow..
Bennett should stick on 2nd line this season.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Beveridge on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:22 pm

I love how people on this board think Pens coaches and upper management are clueless.

They aren't stupid people, they know what they are doing.
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Re: Fire DB

Postby Froggy on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:39 pm

Beveridge wrote:I love how people on this board think Pens coaches and upper management are clueless.

They aren't stupid people, they know what they are doing.

nope. people that probably started watching hockey 4 or 5 years ago are definitely waaaay smarter than people who have spent their entire lives around elite level hockey
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