Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

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Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Bowser on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:31 pm

http://pittsburghfancentral.blogspot.co ... rhaul.html

Breakdown includes pictures.... when you look at the video and positioning of the players at the start of the breakout and as the puck moves up the ice, into the zone... it is painfullhy obvious the coaches and players are not on the same page and the lack of creativity is concerning.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby jprolley on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:29 pm

if sid could actually win the offensive zone faceoff, they wouldn't have to worry so much about entries.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Bowser on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:40 pm

jprolley - Crosby has struggled there but every team has to worry about the entries into the zone.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby pens_CT on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:53 pm

Even when they get cleanly into the zone they are far too stationary and predictable, and therefore easy to defend.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:56 pm

I thought the wayward passes are their biggest problem.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Bowser on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:08 pm

pens_CT - on the sequence I posted, that was definitely a problem. The breakout had 1 option, Neal, and no options to move the puck but to wrap it around. That's not utilizing the man-advantage. The stationary positioning at the blue line drives me nuts, happens at ES and PP.

Gaucho - The passing hasn't been crisp, no doubt.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby wondermoose on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:58 pm

Passing hasn't been crisp because there are three players on the PP that can/want to make pretty passes. That's the biggest problem with Letang, in my opinion. He can't simply pass the puck; he needs to twirl and do a no-look pass on the backhand rather than just make the lunch-pail play down to the corners. And this has been said for years (and might be the undoing on DB someday), the PP simply works better when Sid and Geno aren't together. Granted, when it works, it looks beautiful, but too often they need to find the perfect play to make things happen.

With the Center Ice preview, I've been watching a lot of different teams and noticed something huge. When the Pens get the puck into the zone, defenders always chase them at the blue line. This happens to almost no one else, and certainly the Pens' PK'ers don't chase the puck up high. It got me thinking why: no one respects the Pens blue line. There is absolutely no fear that a goal will come from the blue line at this point in time. I think it goes without saying that they need a big blue-line shot. Letang doesn't like slapshots and Neal needs to be closer to maximize his shot. They just don't have the right guys at the pro level right now; Joe Morrow has a bomb, Gogo had a bomb (but rarely used it), and I don't know enough about the rest of the young defensemen to say whether they're adequate in that area. If for no reason other than the power play, I'd bring back Gonchar next year because they don't have a respectable point shot.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Kharlamov on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:17 pm

Man, I wish I had the time to create a web page dedicated to analyzing the penguins power play in detail.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Bowser on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:49 pm

wondermoose - Absolutely agree. Teams have zero fear that our men at the points will make the right play (pass or shoot) and bank on Letang, Malkin or Neal to get nervous and lose their concentration.

Kharlamov - spent 15 minutes on it.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby bh on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:31 pm

Good stuff Bowser. :thumb:
Agree totally.

Letang is a frustrating player to watch. He has so much strength, speed, and poise with the puck and yet when he takes a shot I never expect a goal. He can hit a seam and get a crisp pass in the slot with no one around him, and I don't expect him to bury it.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby mikey287 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:13 am

Always appreciate a post (or in this case, a link) like this, thanks for taking the time, Bowser.

I'm up past my bed time for right now, but sometimes with skill teams I tell my players to stop over-thinking it and just start moving it in triangles. Create lanes, create movement with triangles...this can also be used on the breakout as well, short, quick, precision passes to break out with numbers instead of long stretch passes that leave your men behind...

If we're going to be this offensive juggernaut, we shouldn't spend half the shift chasing the puck around...might as well power rush the puck and go for it if this is what we do...I'm not sure I ever see us rounding out the defensive game enough to make us even a team I'd consider "balanced"...
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby BigMcK on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:28 am

mikey287 wrote:If we're going to be this offensive juggernaut, we shouldn't spend half the shift chasing the puck around...might as well power rush the puck and go for it if this is what we do.


This! ^^^^^^^^^^

On the timer, there may be 2 minutes, but there isn't 2 minutes of timer time where you can score. If you miss the shot and the puck is cleared, that erases time. Press for the goal when you have the chance instead of laying back looking for the perfect opportunity.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:40 am

I said it in the GDT, but I think it got buried:

Lange mentioned that the Pens looked too impatient with the PP. They were/are trying to force things to happen instead of taking their time and letting things happen or making things happen (please note a key difference between forcing and making that is not noticeable in text form).
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby penmyst on Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:34 am

MRandall25 wrote:I said it in the GDT, but I think it got buried:

Lange mentioned that the Pens looked too impatient with the PP. They were/are trying to force things to happen instead of taking their time and letting things happen or making things happen (please note a key difference between forcing and making that is not noticeable in text form).


I think Bowser's link showed that point. The Pens aren't making anything happen.

A couple of notes to add to those pics.

1. Woeful breakout. Awful positioning. As Neal is carrying the puck in the NZ towards the blue line, there is only ONE option for him thanks to the Pens being in bad locations. That option is to beat the D 1v1. When you have the 1-man advantage, that is precisely what you DO NOT WANT to be creating. You ought to be trying to get 2v1 isolations with your movement/passing/setup.

2. After Neal DOES beat the defender (good on you, James), as Bowser points out he has nobody to pass to in the middle of the zone. NOBODY. What's even more shameful is that pic with Neal almost to the goal line... and STILL no other Pen is visible in the middle of the ice.

If Malkin was at the far boards blue line as Neal enters the zone, HE is the guy that should be racing down to the RW goal line area. Kunitz ought to be heading towards the slot. Crosby, particularly coming from the red line with speed should be going to the slot. Letang should be manning his post up at the blue line.

But where is Crosby? Well, look a couple of pics ahead and THERE he is again at teh RW halfboards/goal line area. With Malkin. In the SAME spot. Again. Like always.

Because that's where they both want to be. Where they both gravitate naturally and instinctively. And that's why it's a mess when those two are out there together. Not only are they less effective when you force one of them to go to another spot (such as moving Malkin up to the point, or pushing Sid to the crease), but it simply doesn't come naturally. So it's stuttering, fits and starts movements, not smooth, and appearing uncomfortable and forced.

What you end up with, like that Kunitz/Malkin standing next to each other at the blue line, is a whole lot of terrible spacing making it EASY to defend. Things get too static from it as well, furthering the ease to defend it.

Teams simply put all their pressure on that RW half boards. When they take away time and space there, the Pens have nothing else up their sleeve. Gonna keep happening too, until the Pens show any proclivity to punishing overaggressive PKs for it.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby profpolisci on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:44 am

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/114 ... z2JLPJDiFj

They call, but he's always out mowing the grass, washing the car, or something.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Luckybreak on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:57 am

penmyst wrote:But where is Crosby? Well, look a couple of pics ahead and THERE he is again at teh RW halfboards/goal line area. With Malkin. In the SAME spot. Again. Like always.

Because that's where they both want to be. Where they both gravitate naturally and instinctively. And that's why it's a mess when those two are out there together. Not only are they less effective when you force one of them to go to another spot (such as moving Malkin up to the point, or pushing Sid to the crease), but it simply doesn't come naturally. So it's stuttering, fits and starts movements, not smooth, and appearing uncomfortable and forced.


Bylsma continues to mismanage the wonderful assets available to him on the PP through insistance on overloading the #1 unit and failing to recognise how to utilize a player's best attributes;

Neal's shot is devastating from the low/mid slot, a weapon that lead the league in PP goals so HCDB moves him to a 'rover' position.
= waste of the teams best PP weapon, Letang forced to hold a defensive position, SH opportunities against.

Letang's fluid skating opens ice for other players and allows him to sneak back door so HCDB cements him at point (despite consistent proof he cannot run a PP or provide an effective point shot).
= waste of skating ability + no point shot threat.

Re Sid and Geno, I hate the claim its a waste to have X talented player sat on the bench during a PP when faced with clear cut evidence proving the absurdity of forcing players (your best players at that) into positions they are uncomfortable/ineffective in.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby bh on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:09 am

So most all agree here we need a big booming shot at the point.
so obvious question...
who?

Nisky? I think from what we have to work with, I think he's got the best shot back there. Maybe put Martin out for stability? Wasn't he on the PP in NJ? I know that sucks for Letang, but like I said above, he's a very frusrating player to watch.

Also without Staal around now, it's hard to make two seperate units that have the skill that you'd like to see on the PP.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby k0la on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:31 am

Luckybreak wrote:Re Sid and Geno, I hate the claim its a waste to have X talented player sat on the bench during a PP when faced with clear cut evidence proving the absurdity of forcing players (your best players at that) into positions they are uncomfortable/ineffective in.


It might be because they want to be out there, and Bylsma wants to keep his star players happy.
It would be great if Crosby decided he'd just do PK instead and score SH goals :p
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby bh on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:40 am

Here are the PP% stats for the last few years. Thought it might be helpful in discussion.

2011-12 19.7%
2010-11 15.8%
2009-10 17.2%
2008-9 17.2%
2007-8 20.4%
2006-7 20.3%
2005-6 19.0%
2003-4 18.0%
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Gaucho on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:56 am

bh wrote:Here are the PP% stats for the last few years. Thought it might be helpful in discussion.

2011-12 19.7%
2010-11 15.8%
2009-10 17.2%
2008-9 17.2%
2007-8 20.4%
2006-7 20.3%
2005-6 19.0%
2003-4 18.0%


Meh, not even close to 100%.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby penmyst on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:56 pm

bh wrote:Here are the PP% stats for the last few years. Thought it might be helpful in discussion.

2011-12 19.7%
2010-11 15.8%
2009-10 17.2%
2008-9 17.2%
2007-8 20.4%
2006-7 20.3%
2005-6 19.0%
2003-4 18.0%


Actually, it IS helfpful.

How many games did Crosby play last year in the regular season?

8.

That means the 19.7% clip, pens best WITHOUT Sergei Gonchar, was mostly without Sid.

Hmmm. Almost as if the Pens PP does really well when it's just Malkin out there instead of Malkin AND Crosby. I would surmise it would be the same if you had Crosby without Malkin.

Neal helped that PP last year no doubt. But the biggest advantage was not having 2 clones out there fighting over the same spot on the ice.

2010-2011 I think we can throw out the window, since you had both Malkin and Crosby hurt at different times of the year, and Geno never seemed quite himself when he did play. Again, this year is without Gonchar.

I keep bringing up Gonchar because he was a BIG part of why that PP was able to maintain a semblence of effectiveness. Great vision, one of the best I've ever seen at intelligent shot selection which translated into getting shots through to create problems for the PK. That ability alone at least drew some of the pressure away from those RW boards. Giving either Malkin or Crosby some time to do work over there.

This is why, while I don't personally believe adding a PP QB will fix all the problems with HCDB's impotent PP coaching... I can say it wouldn't hurt. And it might actually fix things enough to get the PP back on track. Letang is not that guy. He's got a lot of talent, but he is not a great shot selector and does not have the vision of Gonchar.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby pcm on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:24 pm

I always thought Crosby actually QB'd the powerplay from the side walls back in the day. Gonchar played the point exceptionally, but he didn't actually run the PP. Then Malkin started scoring tons of goals from the top of the right circle... things started to change. The PP started to run from the points, passing back and forth... Gonchar and Guerin left. Sid got injured. Neal came in and together with Malkin (and support from Sullivan) gave the powerplay an identity. Now it's back to being a bunch of all stars without a system.

If Sid's not running the powerplay he's not going to be half as effective as he can. But so long as he and Malkin are out there together, Sid can only improvise. Split them up. Split them up. Split them up.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby The Snapshot on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:56 pm

pcm wrote:I always thought Crosby actually QB'd the powerplay from the side walls back in the day. Gonchar played the point exceptionally, but he didn't actually run the PP. Then Malkin started scoring tons of goals from the top of the right circle... things started to change. The PP started to run from the points, passing back and forth... Gonchar and Guerin left. Sid got injured. Neal came in and together with Malkin (and support from Sullivan) gave the powerplay an identity. Now it's back to being a bunch of all stars without a system.

If Sid's not running the powerplay he's not going to be half as effective as he can. But so long as he and Malkin are out there together, Sid can only improvise. Split them up. Split them up. Split them up.


Agree with most of this - especially the split them up part. I said this even before we got Neal, because we have enough talent to play specific roles on 2 PP units, and to press the action on the 1st unit to get the 2nd after a minute or so as well. That is a matchup nightmare for the other team, because most teams will not have a Malkin or a Crosby on their 2nd unit - and teams don't have 2 or 3 solid PK units to roll out there.

The Pens PP though is hardly the unit that needs the most analysis after only 5 games and a pretty darn good start to the season as well.

Perhaps the biggest areas needing analysis would be Kunitz's game, Malkin's game, Sutter's game and Crosby's game at even strength. These are the pieces that are underperforming to varying degrees and that have us with a 3-2 record instead of undefeated. I don't have the energy to create a page to analyze them frame by frame - but they all need to play better.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby Steve on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:45 pm

I really don't know enough about x's and o's (i should spend some time on that) to comment on strategy, but I do wonder about the pace of the pens powerplay. They seem to want to slow it down, and wait for the perfect play to open up.

This slower pace probably worked fine with Gonchar, who somehow could gain entrance into the zone while skating at 2 mph lol. I'm not so sure this slower pace works as well for Letang though, and maybe Sid too - these guys seem more effective when they are flying around and using their speed and agressive play. I'm not saying they should just take a bunch of chances and have Letang drive to the net etc, but maybe a faster pace once they set up, would be a better fit for these two in particular.
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Re: Breaking Down the Pens Lame PP Scheme (Link w/ pics)

Postby shmenguin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:31 pm

I haven't really seen anything from the "split them up" crowd that addresses the true reason why that's not possible - the complete lack of blueline depth to support 2 units.
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