Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controversey?

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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Guinness on Sun May 12, 2013 7:14 am

DropEmJayBird wrote:Fleury is mentally stronger than some of us based on what I read in this GDT nightly.


:lol: Astute observation, sir.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby malkinshair on Sun May 12, 2013 8:23 am

Headshot77 wrote:Jesus people, so is Fleury the new whipping-boy? I'm sure Fleury will get his act together, there is a lot of playoff hockey to be played and you know he will get some chances. You people clamoring for Vokun to become our new #1 are ridiculous.

That being said, I am one for "riding the hot hand". If Vokun plays a bad game (which could be a win or a loss), Fleury goes in. Simple as that. Vokun isn't going to get insulted because he won't get every single start, he is more mature than that.

The mania on this board is disgusting at times.


:thumb:

Vokoun was solid in his 2 games. He pitched a shutout when the team in front of him dominated, and let in 3 goals when they didn't. He's much calmer in net than MAF, but not nearly as dynamic. He also wasn't victimized by horrible puck luck like MAF has been (i.e. weird bounces, pucks dropping right on Isles' sticks, etc). Some just love to hate MAF.

The worst part of the 'mania' is that had MAF been in net tonight, some would still be criticizing him for the Tavares goal (a franchise goalie makes that save!!1!!), and absolutely crushing him for the 3rd goal (cover the puck you idiot!!!1!11!!). He had a very bad game 4, and the last goal in that game looked to 'break' him, but we've seen him broken before, then come back better.

We'll see moving forward, but I'm not sure that you can realistically rely on a 36 year old GT playing at least every other night for the next month and a half without breaking down. Having said that, if the team plays the way it can, it won't matter which of them are in net.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby murphydump55 on Sun May 12, 2013 8:42 am

eddiefromirwin wrote:I dont even like the logic of riding Vokoun until he has one bad game, and then replacing him. How many bad games has Fleury had these past few years? I think Vokoun deserves a serious shot at taking them as deep as possible.


Bingo.

TV was a starter until this year. It's not like he's a career backup. Ride him.

Benching him would be a slap in the face.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby DropEmJayBird on Sun May 12, 2013 9:06 am

Fleury gets blamed for all those goals tonight... I mean hell - we blame him for pucks bouncing off his own players on the side of the net.

Vokoun did his job - but if he faces traffic/crashing - he crumbles. The more he plays - the more tired he is, and it shows. He absolutely requires the penguins to clear the puck on rebounds because once he goes down, he aint getting up.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby pressure=9Pa on Sun May 12, 2013 9:06 am

I expect to see MAF starting game one. In my mind, round two was always going to be Fleury (if we got there) unless TV gave up 2 or fewer in each game. Of course, 3 in OT isn't that different than the arbitrary number that I came up with, but I don't see TV carrying us to a Cup. FLeury is the high risk - high reward option, and eventually we have to take that risk.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby penmyst on Sun May 12, 2013 9:08 am

I never think long-term in the playoffs. The only future you are guaranteed is 4 games minimum in the series you are currently participating in. Therefore, I make decisions based on game-by-game bases.

Vokoun should play until he has a bad game. Notice I did not say "until he loses". If the Pens lose, but Vokoun has played well he should not be yanked. You assess his performance by the game. I think a WIN always weights the decision in favor of the goalie, even if he was shaky. But a LOSS should not be the only determining factor in whether you hook a guy.

That's how I felt about MAF as well. Up until Game 4, he had played well enough even through some iffy bits. But he had posted 2 out of 3 wins. His shaky performance in Game 4 though led to a loss, and so there was plenty of reason to give TV the reins.

Now I DO believe we will see MAF in this series. I don't expect the Pens to sweep Ottawa. And at Vokoun's age, it's entirely believable that he might show some slowdown from playing every other night and have a bad game in there.

Here is a good time to point out again; this is why they signed Vokoun. They could have spent less on a backup goalie, or went with an unproven youngster at a much cheaper salary. This move was intended to give them a more reliable Plan B if MAF got the playoff yips again.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun May 12, 2013 10:13 am

Peter Delmas right?
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby midd on Sun May 12, 2013 10:29 am

Agreed. Fleury should start game 1. Had Vokoun pitched another shutout then of course u go with him. No doubt TV stood strong in game 6. But you have to see if Fleury can rebound and game 1 is the best time to do it.

pressure=9Pa wrote:I expect to see MAF starting game one. In my mind, round two was always going to be Fleury (if we got there) unless TV gave up 2 or fewer in each game. Of course, 3 in OT isn't that different than the arbitrary number that I came up with, but I don't see TV carrying us to a Cup. FLeury is the high risk - high reward option, and eventually we have to take that risk.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby burghsportsguys on Sun May 12, 2013 10:36 am

I live in Chicagoland. I'll tell you what, the fans here would be happy if the Hawks trotted Ray effing Emery out there as the starting goalie for the rest of the playoffs. In fact, many prefer him over Corey Crawford.

They don't care that he's old. That's he's a "career backup." They don't care about Corey Crawford's ego, and they don't care who is the better athlete. They simply care about winning hockey games.

Pens fans are a weird bunch.

I remember watching the Pens/Caps 24/7 series. One thing struck me - Ray Shero and Dan Bylsma meeting to discuss the nightly lineup. I can't see Shero going back to Fleury here, so I'm putting my faith in him. That said, I do think they WILL need MAF again in these playoffs and he may even be the Stanley Cup winning goalie. But, right now, it has to be Vokoun.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 11:14 am

Some of yinz guys really need to get over this baffling pathological obsession with saying that Fleury is this team's only shot at winning a Cup. I just will never understand that logic. I also love people that are saying that Tommy is just alright/serviceable. If your Fleury lovechild would have had the exact same game tonight, you'd see 30 "Fleury gets redemption" threads. Fleury sucks, Tommy's better. It's not about the GD hot-hand. Vokoun has always and will always just be a much better netminder than the human sieve. End of story, **** Ottawa.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 11:21 am

If Bill Ranford can win a Cup for the Oilers, Vokoun can win one for the Pens. But oh no, get out career .800 playoff save percentage goalie in there quick!!!
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby pugilist13 on Sun May 12, 2013 11:29 am

I would go with TV until he loses. DB will go with Fleury in game 1 i'm sure. The Pens should be at Vokouns house this morning washing his car and mowing his lawn, as well as any other household duties.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 11:44 am

penmyst wrote:I never think long-term in the playoffs. The only future you are guaranteed is 4 games minimum in the series you are currently participating in. Therefore, I make decisions based on game-by-game bases.

Vokoun should play until he has a bad game. Notice I did not say "until he loses". If the Pens lose, but Vokoun has played well he should not be yanked. You assess his performance by the game. I think a WIN always weights the decision in favor of the goalie, even if he was shaky. But a LOSS should not be the only determining factor in whether you hook a guy.

That's how I felt about MAF as well. Up until Game 4, he had played well enough even through some iffy bits. But he had posted 2 out of 3 wins. His shaky performance in Game 4 though led to a loss, and so there was plenty of reason to give TV the reins.

Now I DO believe we will see MAF in this series. I don't expect the Pens to sweep Ottawa. And at Vokoun's age, it's entirely believable that he might show some slowdown from playing every other night and have a bad game in there.

Here is a good time to point out again; this is why they signed Vokoun. They could have spent less on a backup goalie, or went with an unproven youngster at a much cheaper salary. This move was intended to give them a more reliable Plan B if MAF got the playoff yips again.


:thumb:

If you look back at games 1 through 4, game 4 was the first time you could definitively say Fleury was a liability and he got benched after it. He was a complete non-factor in the first 3 games - not so much was good or bad, or that he won or lost games, but he was just kind of... there. You could have put pretty well anyone in goal those 3 games and ended up with an identical 2-1 record. That's ok when the team is playing dominant hockey like they did throughout the regular season or in game 1, but they needed more and Vokoun gave them just that.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 11:53 am

Fleury could give up 7 goals from Center Ice in Game 1 and people will still say that we need him for the East Finals.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Steve on Sun May 12, 2013 11:59 am

DropEmJayBird wrote:Vokoun is not young. He's older, slower, heavier. He's got a few games in him, but for goodness sakes he uses his stick as a cane to help him get up from his knees.


And Fluery has been using his stick like a craps stick, to retrieve pucks from the back of the net.

sorry - couldn't resist piling on MAF. I don't think we should give up on him, and I do believe he will bounce back - but right now i don't think there should be any debate that Vokoun starts game one.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby The Snapshot on Sun May 12, 2013 12:03 pm

Fleury was terrible in Games 2-4. Own goals and frantic overplaying of pucks - even the ones that didn't end up in the net. No idea why people would be calling for him to get the net back until the next point in these playoffs where a goalie change is NEEDED.

That ain't Game 1 versus the Sens. He is so mentally fragile in net it is ridiculous. His next shot should be when we have nothing to lose because Vokoun has crumbled the way he did. Maybe he can come in on a white horse under those conditions, because he wasn't handling the pressure of being expected to win and play well.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:06 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:Fleury could give up 7 goals from Center Ice in Game 1 and people will still say that we need him for the East Finals.


There's a decent chance Fleury will be needed again, in some capacity, if the Penguins go far - if for no other reasons than his strengths (speed, reflexes, recovery, agility) are the primary weaknesses in Vokoun's game nowadays. You could see the Isles trying to attack Vokoun last night by forcing him to move laterally, but they put just about every chance wide.

Both goalies clearly have their weaknesses, and the Pens are fortunate enough that neither of them really share weaknesses; in fact, they almost mirror each other in those factors - Fleury's biggest strengths are Vokoun's weaknesses and vice versa.

If I were to guess in what way Fleury will be called upon, I'd say it's probably to take over a game for Vokoun if he gets in trouble and maybe start the next one. At that point, Fleury's play would dictate what happens next, in much the same way Vokoun's play the last two games have secured the starting spot for him; if Fleury plays well he may get more opportunities, and if not then Vokoun's leash is going to get even longer.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Tico Rick on Sun May 12, 2013 12:09 pm

The Snapshot wrote:Fleury was terrible in Games 2-4. Own goals and frantic overplaying of pucks - even the ones that didn't end up in the net. No idea why people would be calling for him to get the net back until the next point in these playoffs where a goalie change is NEEDED.

That ain't Game 1 versus the Sens. He is so mentally fragile in net it is ridiculous. His next shot should be when we have nothing to lose because Vokoun has crumbled the way he did. Maybe he can come in on a white horse under those conditions, because he wasn't handling the pressure of being expected to win and play well.


This. Putting in Fleury would be a crazy - and totally unnecessary - make-or-break move for the careers of both Bylsma and Fleury.
Last edited by Tico Rick on Sun May 12, 2013 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 12:11 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:Fleury could give up 7 goals from Center Ice in Game 1 and people will still say that we need him for the East Finals.


There's a decent chance Fleury will be needed again, in some capacity, if the Penguins go far - if for no other reasons than his strengths (speed, reflexes, recovery, agility) are the primary weaknesses in Vokoun's game nowadays. You could see the Isles trying to attack Vokoun last night by forcing him to move laterally, but they put just about every chance wide.

Both goalies clearly have their weaknesses, and the Pens are fortunate enough that neither of them really share weaknesses; in fact, they almost mirror each other in those factors - Fleury's biggest strengths are Vokoun's weaknesses and vice versa.

If I were to guess in what way Fleury will be called upon, I'd say it's probably to take over a game for Vokoun if he gets in trouble and maybe start the next one. At that point, Fleury's play would dictate what happens next, in much the same way Vokoun's play the last two games have secured the starting spot for him; if Fleury plays well he may get more opportunities, and if not then Vokoun's leash is going to get even longer.

Every goalie has weaknesses dude. Even Patrick Roy was notably sub-par with his 5 hole. Give me the stabalizing rock who's not gonna make crazy 3 on 1 glove saves over the goalie who can make the save, but gives one up from outside the blue line on the next shift.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:12 pm

The Snapshot wrote:Fleury was terrible in Games 2-4. Own goals and frantic overplaying of pucks - even the ones that didn't end up in the net. No idea why people would be calling for him to get the net back until the next point in these playoffs where a goalie change is NEEDED.

That ain't Game 1 versus the Sens. He is so mentally fragile in net it is ridiculous. His next shot should be when we have nothing to lose because Vokoun has crumbled the way he did. Maybe he can come in on a white horse under those conditions, because he wasn't handling the pressure of being expected to win and play well.


The last time Fleury had really good games in the playoffs was against Tampa in 2011 when the team wasn't expected to complete; he played 4 great games and 3 terrible ones in that series - so, he was his old inconsistent self in that series and at least he played well enough for the Pens to win the series.

The last two years, the team went in as favourites with HUGE expectations and Fleury completely collapsed - not even the good/bad stuff we saw before, just almost all bad. This makes me wonder if perhaps its the pressure of being expected to win, as opposed to the pressure of being in the playoffs, that causes him to fall apart.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:16 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:Fleury could give up 7 goals from Center Ice in Game 1 and people will still say that we need him for the East Finals.


There's a decent chance Fleury will be needed again, in some capacity, if the Penguins go far - if for no other reasons than his strengths (speed, reflexes, recovery, agility) are the primary weaknesses in Vokoun's game nowadays. You could see the Isles trying to attack Vokoun last night by forcing him to move laterally, but they put just about every chance wide.

Both goalies clearly have their weaknesses, and the Pens are fortunate enough that neither of them really share weaknesses; in fact, they almost mirror each other in those factors - Fleury's biggest strengths are Vokoun's weaknesses and vice versa.

If I were to guess in what way Fleury will be called upon, I'd say it's probably to take over a game for Vokoun if he gets in trouble and maybe start the next one. At that point, Fleury's play would dictate what happens next, in much the same way Vokoun's play the last two games have secured the starting spot for him; if Fleury plays well he may get more opportunities, and if not then Vokoun's leash is going to get even longer.

Every goalie has weaknesses dude. Even Patrick Roy was notably sub-par with his 5 hole. Give me the stabalizing rock who's not gonna make crazy 3 on 1 glove saves over the goalie who can make the save, but gives one up from outside the blue line on the next shift.


Be realistic here. It's been quite a while since Fleury's given up a goal from outside the blue line, and I don't even recall him giving up any weak ones from the point this season. Every bad goal he gave up in the series - and probably the regular season too - starts around or below the goal line in.

Honestly, I don't think either goalie would have trouble with Ottawa. Both put up great numbers against them in the regular season, and Ottawa's offensive is rather anemic. If the Pens make the ECF, then it might be a different story - especially if it's against Washington or Boston, both of whom possess the skill to exploit Vokoun's subpar lateral movement.

Basically, the way I look at it is this: fast teams that rely heavily on the forecheck and cycle are going to give Fleury trouble because of his poor tracking when the puck is in deep, and skill teams who can execute the pretty cross ice plays are going to give Vokoun trouble because of his lack of speed and mobility. The only team I really see being able to do both is Boston.
Last edited by tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 12:20 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:Fleury could give up 7 goals from Center Ice in Game 1 and people will still say that we need him for the East Finals.


There's a decent chance Fleury will be needed again, in some capacity, if the Penguins go far - if for no other reasons than his strengths (speed, reflexes, recovery, agility) are the primary weaknesses in Vokoun's game nowadays. You could see the Isles trying to attack Vokoun last night by forcing him to move laterally, but they put just about every chance wide.

Both goalies clearly have their weaknesses, and the Pens are fortunate enough that neither of them really share weaknesses; in fact, they almost mirror each other in those factors - Fleury's biggest strengths are Vokoun's weaknesses and vice versa.

If I were to guess in what way Fleury will be called upon, I'd say it's probably to take over a game for Vokoun if he gets in trouble and maybe start the next one. At that point, Fleury's play would dictate what happens next, in much the same way Vokoun's play the last two games have secured the starting spot for him; if Fleury plays well he may get more opportunities, and if not then Vokoun's leash is going to get even longer.

Every goalie has weaknesses dude. Even Patrick Roy was notably sub-par with his 5 hole. Give me the stabalizing rock who's not gonna make crazy 3 on 1 glove saves over the goalie who can make the save, but gives one up from outside the blue line on the next shift.


Be realistic here. It's been quite a while since Fleury's given up a goal from outside the blue line, and I don't even recall him giving up any weak ones from the point this season. Every bad goal he gave up in the series - and probably the regular season too - starts around or below the goal line in.

I engaged in hyperbole to prove my point. Fleury can make the unreal save, but it doesnt matter when he's proven so adept at giving up the soul-sucking one. After the Isles made it 3-2, Fleury would have crumbled.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Antonio on Sun May 12, 2013 12:24 pm

I don't get all the people who keep saying that Fleury will bounce back. I mean...in 2010 it was...oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2011, it was, oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2012, it was, oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2013, it is....you get the idea. Based on what exactly do people think this is going to happen?
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 12:27 pm

Antonio wrote:I don't get all the people who keep saying that Fleury will bounce back. I mean...in 2010 it was...oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2011, it was, oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2012, it was, oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2013, it is....you get the idea. Based on what exactly do people think this is going to happen?

This! A million, bagillion times this. Let's just cone to the logical conclusion that Fleury is a proven playoff loser. And not just a loser, Dan Cloutier and Andre Racicot levels of suck.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:29 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:I engaged in hyperbole to prove my point. Fleury can make the unreal save, but it doesnt matter when he's proven so adept at giving up the soul-sucking one. After the Isles made it 3-2, Fleury would have crumbled.


We shouldn't be surprised when it happens, because that's always been Fleury's scouting report even before he was drafted. He's quite possibly the mostly naturally athletic goaltender in the league which allows him to make those highlight reel saves; this allows allows him to be rather effective on the PK and absolutely fantastic in 1-on-1 situations. However, his lack of sound fundamentals and propensity for mental mistakes make him an extremely "high risk, high reward" type.

If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.
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