Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controversey?

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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 12:33 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:I engaged in hyperbole to prove my point. Fleury can make the unreal save, but it doesnt matter when he's proven so adept at giving up the soul-sucking one. After the Isles made it 3-2, Fleury would have crumbled.


We shouldn't be surprised when it happens, because that's always been Fleury's scouting report even before he was drafted. He's quite possibly the mostly naturally athletic goaltender in the league which allows him to make those highlight reel saves; this allows allows him to be rather effective on the PK and absolutely fantastic in 1-on-1 situations. However, his lack of sound fundamentals and propensity for mental mistakes make him an extremely "high risk, high reward" type.

If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.

And that's why he's a horrible playoff goalie. Your team can't go into a playoff game knowing that they're playing Russian Roulette with the most important position on the ice, no team is ever going to win a Stanley Cup that way. You know what you're getting with Vokoun every night. With Fleury, it's either a 40 save shutout or 6 goals on 24 shots, that can't fly.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:34 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
Antonio wrote:I don't get all the people who keep saying that Fleury will bounce back. I mean...in 2010 it was...oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2011, it was, oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2012, it was, oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2013, it is....you get the idea. Based on what exactly do people think this is going to happen?

This! A million, bagillion times this. Let's just cone to the logical conclusion that Fleury is a proven playoff loser. And not just a loser, Dan Cloutier and Andre Racicot levels of suck.

Not quite on the Cloutier/Racicot level, but close. Neither of them ever game anywhere close to putting together a playoff run like Fleury had in 2008. Those were Conn Smythe calibre numbers (1.97 GAA, .933 sv%), and he was generally considered a lock for the trophy if the Pens managed to win the Cup that year.

Oddly enough, I see a lot of people still clamouring for Carey Price despite him proving to be a virtual Fleury clone at a higher cap hit.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:37 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:I engaged in hyperbole to prove my point. Fleury can make the unreal save, but it doesnt matter when he's proven so adept at giving up the soul-sucking one. After the Isles made it 3-2, Fleury would have crumbled.


We shouldn't be surprised when it happens, because that's always been Fleury's scouting report even before he was drafted. He's quite possibly the mostly naturally athletic goaltender in the league which allows him to make those highlight reel saves; this allows allows him to be rather effective on the PK and absolutely fantastic in 1-on-1 situations. However, his lack of sound fundamentals and propensity for mental mistakes make him an extremely "high risk, high reward" type.

If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.

And that's why he's a horrible playoff goalie. Your team can't go into a playoff game knowing that they're playing Russian Roulette with the most important position on the ice, no team is ever going to win a Stanley Cup that way. You know what you're getting with Vokoun every night. With Fleury, it's either a 40 save shutout or 6 goals on 24 shots, that can't fly.


I agree, though I think Fleury would be a huge help to a fringe team trying to get "over the hump". He's proven to be consistently reliable in the regular season, which make his playoff performances even more mind-boggling, and has the kind of "show stopping" ability that a team like that could use.

I also believe that if the Pens find themselves in a situation where they desparately need a goalie to steal a game (down a quick 2-0 or 3-0, for example) that we'll see Fleury get the call. It's basically a desparation move if solid reliable goaltending from Vokoun no longer cuts it.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby malkinshair on Sun May 12, 2013 12:38 pm

The Snapshot wrote:Fleury was terrible in Games 2-4. Own goals and frantic overplaying of pucks - even the ones that didn't end up in the net.


Revisionist history is fun! MAF wasn't terrible in games 2 and 3. He was actually the reason they were even in those games after the 1st period. The Pens were getting severely outplayed in games 2, 3, and 4. He wasn't great, but he was more than adequate. The Isles were also getting a ton of bounces. The Okposo own-goal bounced off the boards against the grain...and Fleury didn't overplay the initial shot...he was still inside the post as he slid back. It was an unlucky bounce, but given the last couple years, MAF sucks :roll:

He was broken in game 4. You could see him fighting the puck, overplaying passes/shots, etc...but not until half-way thru the 2nd period of that game. You can only see so many pucks redirected either by your opponent or your own players leak thru before you start pressing. When Fleury presses, he's not very good...in fact he's pretty bad.

I don't mean to be an 'apologist', but I find it hilarious that people view the play of a goaltender and the play of the team in front of him as mutually exclusive. The team was being outplayed, outshot, and outhit...2/3rds of the games were being played in the Pens D zone with our D running around and our Fs waiting at the blue line for a stretch pass. This was not the same Fleury we saw in the regular season...but it wasn't the same team in front of him either.

Why is that so hard to accept?
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 12:39 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:I engaged in hyperbole to prove my point. Fleury can make the unreal save, but it doesnt matter when he's proven so adept at giving up the soul-sucking one. After the Isles made it 3-2, Fleury would have crumbled.


We shouldn't be surprised when it happens, because that's always been Fleury's scouting report even before he was drafted. He's quite possibly the mostly naturally athletic goaltender in the league which allows him to make those highlight reel saves; this allows allows him to be rather effective on the PK and absolutely fantastic in 1-on-1 situations. However, his lack of sound fundamentals and propensity for mental mistakes make him an extremely "high risk, high reward" type.

If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.

And that's why he's a horrible playoff goalie. Your team can't go into a playoff game knowing that they're playing Russian Roulette with the most important position on the ice, no team is ever going to win a Stanley Cup that way. You know what you're getting with Vokoun every night. With Fleury, it's either a 40 save shutout or 6 goals on 24 shots, that can't fly.


I agree, though I think Fleury would be a huge help to a fringe team trying to get "over the hump". He's proven to be consistently reliable in the regular season, which make his playoff performances even more mind-boggling, and has the kind of "show stopping" ability that a team like that could use.

I have nothing personally against Fleury. How could I? Unless he slept with my sister or something. Like you said, I think he can be really good on an up and comer like Edmonton. However, he just can't do it anymore on a team that's expected to be a Cup favorite every year.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:40 pm

Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 12:42 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:
Antonio wrote:I don't get all the people who keep saying that Fleury will bounce back. I mean...in 2010 it was...oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2011, it was, oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2012, it was, oh hey, he will bounce back. In 2013, it is....you get the idea. Based on what exactly do people think this is going to happen?

This! A million, bagillion times this. Let's just cone to the logical conclusion that Fleury is a proven playoff loser. And not just a loser, Dan Cloutier and Andre Racicot levels of suck.

Not quite on the Cloutier/Racicot level, but close. Neither of them ever game anywhere close to putting together a playoff run like Fleury had in 2008. Those were Conn Smythe calibre numbers (1.97 GAA, .933 sv%), and he was generally considered a lock for the trophy if the Pens managed to win the Cup that year.

Oddly enough, I see a lot of people still clamouring for Carey Price despite him proving to be a virtual Fleury clone at a higher cap hit.

Man, Fleury might commit suicide if he's expected to carry Montreal to their first Cup in 20+ years. A french-canadian playing in the most pressure situation in all of hockey? Yikes.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:42 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:I engaged in hyperbole to prove my point. Fleury can make the unreal save, but it doesnt matter when he's proven so adept at giving up the soul-sucking one. After the Isles made it 3-2, Fleury would have crumbled.


We shouldn't be surprised when it happens, because that's always been Fleury's scouting report even before he was drafted. He's quite possibly the mostly naturally athletic goaltender in the league which allows him to make those highlight reel saves; this allows allows him to be rather effective on the PK and absolutely fantastic in 1-on-1 situations. However, his lack of sound fundamentals and propensity for mental mistakes make him an extremely "high risk, high reward" type.

If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.

And that's why he's a horrible playoff goalie. Your team can't go into a playoff game knowing that they're playing Russian Roulette with the most important position on the ice, no team is ever going to win a Stanley Cup that way. You know what you're getting with Vokoun every night. With Fleury, it's either a 40 save shutout or 6 goals on 24 shots, that can't fly.


I agree, though I think Fleury would be a huge help to a fringe team trying to get "over the hump". He's proven to be consistently reliable in the regular season, which make his playoff performances even more mind-boggling, and has the kind of "show stopping" ability that a team like that could use.

I have nothing personally against Fleury. How could I? Unless he slept with my sister or something. Like you said, I think he can be really good on an up and comer like Edmonton. However, he just can't do it anymore on a team that's expected to be a Cup favorite every year.


If Shero does keep Fleury around due to the poor goalie market, I sincerely hope they bring in a better technical goalie coach for him - though I can't see that happening if they are planning on getting rid of him. If someone could coach him into proper fundamentals, we could very well see a return of the 2008 Fleury who looked like the best goalie on the planet for 3-4 months.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 12:43 pm

tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)
If the Pens don't win the Cup, Tomas Vokoun won't be the reason why they didn't.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Willie Kool on Sun May 12, 2013 12:44 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:Oddly enough, I see a lot of people still clamouring for Carey Price despite him proving to be a virtual Fleury clone at a higher cap hit.

Man, Fleury might commit suicide if he's expected to carry Montreal to their first Cup in 20+ years. A french-canadian playing in the most pressure situation in all of hockey? Yikes.

He did play his best hockey while under MT's strict tutelage...
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Willie Kool on Sun May 12, 2013 12:48 pm

tfrizz wrote:If Shero does keep Fleury around due to the poor goalie market, I sincerely hope they bring in a better technical goalie coach for him - though I can't see that happening if they are planning on getting rid of him. If someone could coach him into proper fundamentals, we could very well see a return of the 2008 Fleury who looked like the best goalie on the planet for 3-4 months.

Unfortunately, I think it's too late for that. Should have been done years ago.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:49 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)
If the Pens don't win the Cup, Tomas Vokoun won't be the reason why they didn't.


I agree. I don't believe Vokoun will be the reason the Pens lose a series, nor do I believe he'll be the reason they win a series. Even these last two games against the Islanders, it wasn't so much that Vokoun won the games but he just made sure he didn't lose them. Vokoun is that middle ground that's completely lacking from Fleury's game.

That's why, as I said a few posts back, if the Pens find themselves in a situation where they desparately need their goalie to steal a game, then it'll be Fleury getting the call. Not that it's much of a stretch - if they get in that kind of situation, it means there's something about the team and/or Vokoun that just isn't working effectively.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby The Snapshot on Sun May 12, 2013 12:50 pm

tfrizz wrote:If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.


I agree, and what is even more distressing is that in the last 4 playoffs now he has actually morphed to where he is sometimes great AND terrible within the same game. It's like you used to be able to see right away if he was on, but of late it is impossible to be sure until the final buzzer.

He can now crumble within games where he had previously made big saves. It's why I find myself arguing with Fleury fans who point to all the saves he made in a game BEFORE a terrible goal against. To me, one bad goal at the wrong time can undo 20 saves.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:53 pm

Willie Kool wrote:
tfrizz wrote:If Shero does keep Fleury around due to the poor goalie market, I sincerely hope they bring in a better technical goalie coach for him - though I can't see that happening if they are planning on getting rid of him. If someone could coach him into proper fundamentals, we could very well see a return of the 2008 Fleury who looked like the best goalie on the planet for 3-4 months.

Unfortunately, I think it's too late for that. Should have been done years ago.


So do I, and I've been calling for Meloche's replacement for years now. I just don't think the guy is the right coach to address Fleury's weaknesses. Look no further than the incredible improvement Fleury made when Conklin was working with him on a daily basis in 2008. Fleury made it known that Conklin was actively coaching him on fundamentals and puck handling during that time, and gave him a ton of credit for his greatly improved play.

Meloche has had 5 full seasons to work with Fleury now, and all he's done is regress.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 12:57 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
tfrizz wrote:If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.


I agree, and what is even more distressing is that in the last 4 playoffs now he has actually morphed to where he is sometimes great AND terrible within the same game. It's like you used to be able to see right away if he was on, but of late it is impossible to be sure until the final buzzer.

He can now crumble within games where he had previously made big saves. It's why I find myself arguing with Fleury fans who point to all the saves he made in a game BEFORE a terrible goal against. To me, one bad goal at the wrong time can undo 20 saves.


That's basically what happened in games 2-4. Fleury was absolutely bombarded early in those games and stood on his head to keep the Pens in it. If you look at the 4 goals he gave up in 1st periods, there really isn't a bad one. The worst was probably the 1st goal in game 3 when Moulson got 5 or 6 whacks at the puck. As the games went on, he got worse and worse.

If you look at a period-by-period breakdown you'll see that trend reflected in his numbers. Strong first, bad second, terrible third.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sun May 12, 2013 1:09 pm

If you can't see that TV won the game yesterday, you are crazy. The Penguins sleepwalk through the game when Fleury is in net-he lets in a goal (that maybe is or isn't his fault), and suddenly it's panic city. Vokoun lets in a goal, and he shrugs it off and keeps going about his business. That is a huge difference between the two goaltenders, the difference in mental fortitude is staggering. You can't win the cup without that.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 1:16 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Willie Kool wrote:
tfrizz wrote:If Shero does keep Fleury around due to the poor goalie market, I sincerely hope they bring in a better technical goalie coach for him - though I can't see that happening if they are planning on getting rid of him. If someone could coach him into proper fundamentals, we could very well see a return of the 2008 Fleury who looked like the best goalie on the planet for 3-4 months.

Unfortunately, I think it's too late for that. Should have been done years ago.


So do I, and I've been calling for Meloche's replacement for years now. I just don't think the guy is the right coach to address Fleury's weaknesses. Look no further than the incredible improvement Fleury made when Conklin was working with him on a daily basis in 2008. Fleury made it known that Conklin was actively coaching him on fundamentals and puck handling during that time, and gave him a ton of credit for his greatly improved play.

Meloche has had 5 full seasons to work with Fleury now, and all he's done is regress.

Great point. When Fleury was at his best, he relied on solid fundamentals instead of his athleticism. Now, it's back to the way he was when he was a rookie. When his game goes to ****, he has no core to fall back upon.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby The Snapshot on Sun May 12, 2013 1:22 pm

tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)


I don't disagree with that at all. I don't think they can win the Cup without Fleury, which to me means now that they can't win the Cup. He is SUPPOSED to be something he is not - which is a franchise goalie. I had hoped he would be able to be the kind of rock that a team needs to win it all. That means giving a solid baseline of goaltending every night. He has too many peaks and valleys, and as the Isles can contest, when a goalie gives a team who is your equal or superior a game or two that they shouldn't have won, it is a series crippler.

I don't see us being able to get to the Finals or win it all without Fleury being what he should be by now. This team is not THAT good and several others are their equal in other areas of the game.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Willie Kool on Sun May 12, 2013 1:36 pm

tfrizz wrote:Fleury made it known that Conklin was actively coaching him on fundamentals and puck handling during that time, and gave him a ton of credit for his greatly improved play.

And that is exactly when Meloche should have been let go. How much more obvious did it need to be?
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby tfrizz on Sun May 12, 2013 1:36 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)


I don't disagree with that at all. I don't think they can win the Cup without Fleury, which to me means now that they can't win the Cup. He is SUPPOSED to be something he is not - which is a franchise goalie. I had hoped he would be able to be the kind of rock that a team needs to win it all. That means giving a solid baseline of goaltending every night. He has too many peaks and valleys, and as the Isles can contest, when a goalie gives a team who is your equal or superior a game or two that they shouldn't have won, it is a series crippler.

I don't see us being able to get to the Finals or win it all without Fleury being what he should be by now. This team is not THAT good and several others are their equal in other areas of the game.


I'm completely on the same page as you. It's also why I, among others, believe Fleury isn't done for the playoffs. There will be a time when just getting solid goaltending out of Vokoun won't cut it, and they're going to have to roll the dice and see if "great Fleury" shows up instead of "ECHL Fleury". On the bright side, maybe watching Vokoun play some great hockey to finish of this round and hopefully get them through the second round makes Fleury feel less pressured if he does find himself back out there. He's got potential greatness in him, he just needs to settle down and slow the game in his mind.

Ideally, Shero would've taken precautions and brought in a goalie consultant and sports psychologist for Fleury after game 4. We've seen what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket; without taking these precautions, they'll be doing it again - only with Vokoun.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sun May 12, 2013 1:37 pm

Just to play devil's advocate...can anybody give me a sound, logical argument as to why Fleury is a better goaltender than Tomas Vokoun, that doesn't involve the word "wins", even at this stage in their careers?
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 12, 2013 1:40 pm

tfrizz wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
tfrizz wrote:Listening to "The Reporters" on TSN. They expect to see Fleury bought out this summer. They also said they believe the change to Vokoun is what got the Pens to the second round, but they don't think the Pens can win the cup with him in net. (In other words, they don't think the Pens can win the cup at all)


I don't disagree with that at all. I don't think they can win the Cup without Fleury, which to me means now that they can't win the Cup. He is SUPPOSED to be something he is not - which is a franchise goalie. I had hoped he would be able to be the kind of rock that a team needs to win it all. That means giving a solid baseline of goaltending every night. He has too many peaks and valleys, and as the Isles can contest, when a goalie gives a team who is your equal or superior a game or two that they shouldn't have won, it is a series crippler.

I don't see us being able to get to the Finals or win it all without Fleury being what he should be by now. This team is not THAT good and several others are their equal in other areas of the game.


I'm completely on the same page as you. It's also why I, among others, believe Fleury isn't done for the playoffs. There will be a time when just getting solid goaltending out of Vokoun won't cut it, and they're going to have to roll the dice and see if "great Fleury" shows up instead of "ECHL Fleury". On the bright side, maybe watching Vokoun play some great hockey to finish of this round and hopefully get them through the second round makes Fleury feel less pressured if he does find himself back out there. He's got potential greatness in him, he just needs to settle down and slow the game in his mind.

Ideally, Shero would've taken precautions and brought in a goalie consultant and sports psychologist for Fleury after game 4. We've seen what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket; without taking these precautions, they'll be doing it again - only with Vokoun.

If the Pens reach a point where they feel like they have to go back to Fleury to steal a game, then it's already long over. I hate the terms that some people use when discussing Vokoun like "baseline" and "solid". 67 out of 70 saves in two games is just solid? Tommy didnt steal that game last night? Tommy can steal a game against the Isles but would be utterly incapable of doing it against the Caps in an East Final? Why?
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Sarcastic on Sun May 12, 2013 1:50 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:I engaged in hyperbole to prove my point. Fleury can make the unreal save, but it doesnt matter when he's proven so adept at giving up the soul-sucking one. After the Isles made it 3-2, Fleury would have crumbled.


We shouldn't be surprised when it happens, because that's always been Fleury's scouting report even before he was drafted. He's quite possibly the mostly naturally athletic goaltender in the league which allows him to make those highlight reel saves; this allows allows him to be rather effective on the PK and absolutely fantastic in 1-on-1 situations. However, his lack of sound fundamentals and propensity for mental mistakes make him an extremely "high risk, high reward" type.

If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.

And that's why he's a horrible playoff goalie. Your team can't go into a playoff game knowing that they're playing Russian Roulette with the most important position on the ice, no team is ever going to win a Stanley Cup that way. You know what you're getting with Vokoun every night. With Fleury, it's either a 40 save shutout or 6 goals on 24 shots, that can't fly.


Agree with both of you there.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby Sarcastic on Sun May 12, 2013 1:52 pm

malkinshair wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:Fleury was terrible in Games 2-4. Own goals and frantic overplaying of pucks - even the ones that didn't end up in the net.


Revisionist history is fun! MAF wasn't terrible in games 2 and 3. He was actually the reason they were even in those games after the 1st period. The Pens were getting severely outplayed in games 2, 3, and 4. He wasn't great, but he was more than adequate. The Isles were also getting a ton of bounces. The Okposo own-goal bounced off the boards against the grain...and Fleury didn't overplay the initial shot...he was still inside the post as he slid back. It was an unlucky bounce, but given the last couple years, MAF sucks :roll:

He was broken in game 4. You could see him fighting the puck, overplaying passes/shots, etc...but not until half-way thru the 2nd period of that game. You can only see so many pucks redirected either by your opponent or your own players leak thru before you start pressing. When Fleury presses, he's not very good...in fact he's pretty bad.

I don't mean to be an 'apologist', but I find it hilarious that people view the play of a goaltender and the play of the team in front of him as mutually exclusive. The team was being outplayed, outshot, and outhit...2/3rds of the games were being played in the Pens D zone with our D running around and our Fs waiting at the blue line for a stretch pass. This was not the same Fleury we saw in the regular season...but it wasn't the same team in front of him either.

Why is that so hard to accept?


If you find that Fleury's play in the off season has been acceptable this year and in the past, I'll have to conclude that you either have a Fleury poster on your wall or have never seen a quality goaltender.
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Re: Do the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS have a goaltending controvers

Postby bhaw on Sun May 12, 2013 1:53 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Getting To My Game wrote:I engaged in hyperbole to prove my point. Fleury can make the unreal save, but it doesnt matter when he's proven so adept at giving up the soul-sucking one. After the Isles made it 3-2, Fleury would have crumbled.


We shouldn't be surprised when it happens, because that's always been Fleury's scouting report even before he was drafted. He's quite possibly the mostly naturally athletic goaltender in the league which allows him to make those highlight reel saves; this allows allows him to be rather effective on the PK and absolutely fantastic in 1-on-1 situations. However, his lack of sound fundamentals and propensity for mental mistakes make him an extremely "high risk, high reward" type.

If you look at his playoff series from 2009 on, you'll see exactly what I mean. There's no in between, every game is either great or terrible.

And that's why he's a horrible playoff goalie. Your team can't go into a playoff game knowing that they're playing Russian Roulette with the most important position on the ice, no team is ever going to win a Stanley Cup that way. You know what you're getting with Vokoun every night. With Fleury, it's either a 40 save shutout or 6 goals on 24 shots, that can't fly.


I'm going to be the jerk that says clearly we can.

I'm also going to agree with the point you are making. Need consistency. I'd take a consistent B or B+ every night over A+ one night, C- the next, A the next, and a period here and there at a D level.
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