A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:17 pm

columbia - No it proves that you don't need a top five pick to get a top six talent or as pens_CT said..

"Not sure where these depth forwards are supposed to come from? Are we expected a 3rd round pick in 2007, or a 4th round pick in 2008 to be top six forward material?"

Fact is, teams are always finding 2-7 rd players. You won't do it every year but 1 in 6, I sure as hope you could at least do that and right now, Pens haven't.... ever under Shero for the first four years (06-09) and doubtful for the last three years (10-12).
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:23 pm

From 06 draft after Carl Sneep, 55 players made it to NHL and 32 were forwards.

Round Num. Drafted By Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2 50 Boston Milan Lucic L Vancouver Giants [WHL] 366 92 124 216 549
3 72 Minnesota Cal Clutterbuck R Oshawa Generals [OHL] 311 59 43 102 316
2 44 Toronto Nikolai Kulemin W Magnitogorsk Metallurg [Russia] 310 69 89 158 66
7 189 Columbus Derek Dorsett R Medicine Hat Tigers [WHL] 264 25 35 60 700
2 54 NY Rangers Artem Anisimov C Yaroslavl Lokomotiv [Russia] 252 48 63 111 94
2 36 San Jose Jamie McGinn L Ottawa 67's [OHL] 228 35 30 65 121
2 47 Detroit Shawn Matthias C Belleville Bulls [OHL] 212 25 35 60 81
6 161 Toronto Viktor Stalberg L Frolunda Jrs (Sweden) 203 45 39 84 109
3 71 Boston Brad Marchand R Moncton Wildcats [QMJHL] 180 54 49 103 160
2 39 Philadelphia Andreas Nodl R Sioux Falls Stampede [USHL] 175 15 20 35 26
4 112 Anaheim Matt Beleskey L Belleville Bulls [OHL] 172 19 25 44 155
6 177 Washington Mathieu Perreault C Acadie-Bathurst Titan [QMJHL] 125 27 26 53 58
7 211 Ottawa Erik Condra R Notre Dame [CCHA] 114 15 24 39 50
7 196 Phoenix Benn Ferriero R Boston College [H-East] 95 14 9 23 25
3 77 New Jersey Vladimir Zharkov R CSKA-2 [Russia] 82 2 12 14 10
2 41 Detroit Cory Emmerton L Kingston Frontenacs [OHL] 79 7 4 11 14
3 66 Montreal Ryan White C Calgary Hitmen [WHL] 69 3 8 11 157
3 91 Ottawa Kaspars Daugavins L Riga (Lavtia) 68 5 7 12 12
2 60 NY Islanders Jesse Joensuu W Assat Pori [SM-liiga] 60 8 5 13 41
2 56 Nashville Blake Geoffrion L US National Under 18 Team 55 8 5 13 34
7 202 San Jose John McCarthy L Boston University [H-East] 51 2 2 4 18
2 49 Montreal Ben Maxwell C Kootenay Ice [WHL] 47 2 6 8 19
6 182 Detroit Jan Mursak R Budejovice Jrs (Czech Rep.) 45 2 2 4 6
3 85 Columbus Tom Sestito L Plymouth Whalers [OHL] 30 2 3 5 154
2 58 New Jersey Alexander Vasyunov L Yaroslavl Jrs. (Russia) 18 1 4 5 0
3 79 Philadelphia Jonathan Matsumoto C Bowling Green State University [CCHA] 14 2 0 2 4
6 163 Vancouver Sergei Shirokov R CSKA Moscow [Russia] 8 1 0 1 2
4 100 NY Islanders Rhett Rakhshani R US National Under 18 Team 7 0 0 0 2
5 138 Dallas David Mcintyre C Newmarket Hurricanes [OPJHL] 7 1 1 2 2
6 180 Toronto Leo Komarov C Assat Pori [SM-liiga] 7 0 1 1 0
4 97 Washington Oskar Osala L Mississauga IceDogs [OHL] 3 0 0 0 0
6 172 Anaheim Petteri Wirtanen C HPK Hameenlinna [SM-liiga] 3 1 0 1 2
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:29 pm

After the Pens RIGHTLY traded away their 2008 first, second and third round picks to win now, they selected Nathan Moon late in the 4th Round... after that pick

These forwards have played 1 game in the NHL... I think I see a few NHL depth players in there.

Round Num. Drafted By Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts
5 148 NY Islanders Matt Martin L Sarnia Sting [OHL] 160 13 18 31
6 178 Philadelphia Zac Rinaldo L Mississauga St. Michael's Majors [OHL] 69 2 7 9
5 127 Columbus Matt Calvert L Brandon Wheat Kings [WHL] 61 11 12 23
5 123 Los Angeles Andrei Loktionov C Yaroslavl Jrs. (Russia) 59 7 7 14
5 140 Colorado Mark Olver C Northern Michigan University [CCHA] 49 6 11 17
6 177 San Jose Tommy Wingels C Miami University (Ohio) [CCHA] 45 3 7 10
6 163 Edmonton Teemu Hartikainen L Kalpa Jrs. (Finland) 35 5 6 11
6 157 Columbus Cam Atkinson R Avon Old Farms H.S. (Conn.) 30 8 7 15
4 121 Detroit Gustav Nyquist L Malmo Jrs [Sweden] 19 1 6 7
6 169 Chicago Ben Smith R Boston College [H-East] 19 3 0 3
5 135 Columbus Tomas Kubalik R Plzen HC [Czech] 12 1 3 4
6 175 NY Islanders Justin DiBenedetto L Sarnia Sting [OHL] 8 0 1 1
7 204 Washington Stefan Della Rovere L Barrie Colts [OHL] 7 0 0 0
5 133 Edmonton Philippe Cornet L Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL] 2 0 1 1
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby meecrofilm on Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:41 pm

Bowser wrote:Maybe Shero should look at TSN and others that list the best prospects.


What is this, I don't even, this is so full of fail
meecrofilm
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,205
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Filly don't do rebounds.

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:50 pm

meecrofilm - It was sarcasm... what he should do is hire better scouts, maybe have more scouts in Europe, maybe even say like... draft a European.

Did you know Shero has drafted only 5 players on a team not in North America at the time of his draft selection.

Did you know Shero has drafted only 10 players born outside of North America.

Maybe changing a little bit of their philosophy is needed and hopefully that the idea for 2012 class with Maatta, Blueger, Sundqvist, and Zlobin.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby meecrofilm on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:07 am

I needed the :pop: emoticon. You know how it is on the main board during hockey season -- anything goes.
meecrofilm
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,205
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Filly don't do rebounds.

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:09 am

meecrofilm - ...apparently, questioning the lack of success of our drafts is a touchy subject around here.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Kovy27 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:21 am

Bowser needs to go back to work. LOL.
Kovy27
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 24,171
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Break Down the Walls of Kovy27

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby shmenguin on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:26 am

i think most people here are ok admitting that shero's draft history is substandard. though i'm curious how much he drives the ship vs. how much influence his scouts have.

bowser has a point in that we gotta find a way to fill our roster in the next couple years. we have 7 forwards signed next year, and 2 of them are 4th liners. i probably don't want cooke back. the only way we get dupuis back is if he sucks this year. i'm not sure what's going to happen with kennedy, but i have my doubts that he'll be back. so we may have 4 spots in our top 9 that need filled. on deck, we have a guy who has never played an NHL game (Bennett) and a guy that may not even belong in the NHL (Jeffrey). and that's it. and the year after that, we need to find a kunitz replacement...and maybe sutter, too.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,071
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby pcm on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:54 am

shmenguin's right. And the truth is we can't and shouldn't trade Despres for a forward because he and Paul Martin are the only guys signed after next year... Like with Letang and Goligoski, we need 2 of our young D to compete for permanent spots in the top 4. Then we trade the lesser... One of Morrow / Harrington / Doumulin might be up here next season, but it'll take a while to develop these guys at the NHL level to the point where they become valuable assets.

IMO trading Kunitz this season for a younger forward who will be around through the changing of the guard is the way to go. I think we should trade Kennedy too, to open up ice time to develop a younger player. But that's only if Shero thinks he can sign Dupuis to a reasonable deal.

What's funny though is that the organization gives more time to develop waiver-wire pickups than it does to its own prospects.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,725
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:58 am

People will realize how dry the forward cupboard is when Shero is forced to trade one of our defensive prospects. Until then, cupcakes and rainbows.
DontToewsMeBro
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,089
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:34 am

Kovy27 - hahaha... being at home this week after sinus surgery wasn't too bad.

shmenguin - nailed it.

pcm - agreed. That's why I've been saying Despres has to play this year because over the next two years, they are really going to need their younger D to step into big roles. I doubt Martin and Orpik will get another contract from the Pens, Letang could be gone if he wants too much money, and does anyone ever want to see Engelland and Lovejoy beyond this season. If they can get a younger top six winger by trading Kunitz, I'm all for it. Even more so with Kennedy as I don't think he's any better of a player than Bennett or Megna. In fact, I think those two would score more than he would. Don't see a problem getting one of them ice time on the third line RW to get them ready for potential first or second line duty for 13-14 season.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Fire0nice228 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:35 am

DontToewsMeBro wrote:People will realize how dry the forward cupboard is when Shero is forced to trade one of our defensive prospects. Until then, cupcakes and rainbows.


Who cares if he has to trade a defensive prospect? He's got plenty of them, and it worked out okay last time.

I say this all the time and have yet to get a good, straight answer from anyone : Pens led the league in Goals for per game last year. Why do they need more offense?

There is enough, plenty, of high end talent on the team. And the muckers, grinders, glue guys can be signed easily every off season. The Cup was won with an aging Bill Guerin and Max Freaking Talbot playing in the top 6. Come on.

Besides, everyone knows defense wins championships. Look at the final 4 last year. All very stout defensively, players and system, and great goaltending to boot.
Fire0nice228
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,583
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: refs fault

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:46 am

FireOnice228 - If you are banking on the same type of scoring as last year, you need to take those glasses off. Staal's 25 goals are gone, Sutter is as third line center, he's going to fill that role well but he's not scoring like Staal did. Sullivan's 17 goals are gone, do you think Jeffrey, Tangradi, Boychuk or some other ham and egger is scoring those goals?

Do you think all of these guys are scoring at the same goals per game pace at last season.

Malkin - 50 (.66 per game)
Neal - 40 (.5)
Kunitz - 26 (.317)
Dupuis - 25 (.304)
Cooke - 19 (.231)
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Puck Drama on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:57 am

Correct me if I am wrong (I rarely am), but the NYR game was the first game that more than 2 of Shero's draft picks dressed for Pittsburgh.
Puck Drama
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:30 pm

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby columbia on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:58 am

Puck Drama wrote:Correct me if I am wrong (I rarely am).


:thumb:
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 42,481
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Puck Drama on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:59 am

DontToewsMeBro wrote:People will realize how dry the forward cupboard is when Shero is forced to trade one of our defensive prospects. Until then, cupcakes and rainbows.


But the cupboard is dry on Patrick drafted defensemen to trade (unless they trade Letang).
Puck Drama
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:30 pm

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Gaucho on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:05 am

DontToewsMeBro wrote:People will realize how dry the forward cupboard is when Shero is forced to trade one of our defensive prospects.


I thought that was sort of the idea behind drafting so many dmen. "Forced" has nothing to do with it.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 39,051
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Jay Landsman's cookie jar

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:12 am

Gaucho - He's hit it good with Goligoski and Whitney, both Patrick draft picks. Let's see what he does with guys he's drafted, which will need to happen soon.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby mikey287 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:33 am

Bowser wrote:After the Pens RIGHTLY traded away their 2008 first, second and third round picks to win now, they selected Nathan Moon late in the 4th Round... after that pick

These forwards have played 1 game in the NHL... I think I see a few NHL depth players in there.

Round Num. Drafted By Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts
5 148 NY Islanders Matt Martin L Sarnia Sting [OHL] 160 13 18 31
6 178 Philadelphia Zac Rinaldo L Mississauga St. Michael's Majors [OHL] 69 2 7 9
5 127 Columbus Matt Calvert L Brandon Wheat Kings [WHL] 61 11 12 23
5 123 Los Angeles Andrei Loktionov C Yaroslavl Jrs. (Russia) 59 7 7 14
5 140 Colorado Mark Olver C Northern Michigan University [CCHA] 49 6 11 17
6 177 San Jose Tommy Wingels C Miami University (Ohio) [CCHA] 45 3 7 10
6 163 Edmonton Teemu Hartikainen L Kalpa Jrs. (Finland) 35 5 6 11
6 157 Columbus Cam Atkinson R Avon Old Farms H.S. (Conn.) 30 8 7 15
4 121 Detroit Gustav Nyquist L Malmo Jrs [Sweden] 19 1 6 7
6 169 Chicago Ben Smith R Boston College [H-East] 19 3 0 3
5 135 Columbus Tomas Kubalik R Plzen HC [Czech] 12 1 3 4
6 175 NY Islanders Justin DiBenedetto L Sarnia Sting [OHL] 8 0 1 1
7 204 Washington Stefan Della Rovere L Barrie Colts [OHL] 7 0 0 0
5 133 Edmonton Philippe Cornet L Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL] 2 0 1 1


See, this is the part I don't really care for. I can't comment too far in depth because I don't have the travel receipts for the Penguins scouts in front of me. But some of these weren't happening...

Loktionov (who has demanded a trade out of LA, so if we want him, we can have him) was not being seen in the MHL, Teemu Hartikainen was not being seen in Finnish Jrs., Gustav Nyquist was not being seen in J20 SuperElit, we draft out of the Czech Republic still? No. Scratch off Kubalik.

Rinaldo is a slimeball, no one should have drafted him. Calvert was seen as the third wheel of a line that featured Brayden Schenn (top-10 pick) and Scott Glennie (top-10 pick) in Brandon, most scouts assumed he was just along for the ride (in actuality, it was Glennie). The three guys at the bottom blow...we were obviously looking for a homerun, those guys are a groundout to short...

Ben Smith was already 20 at this point, the Pens may have felt they would have lost 2 years of development there. He was on a line with Nathan Gerbe that year as I recall too, we thought he was probably just along for the ride (and in a way, he was, it's not like he's very good). Olver was a 20-year old freshman, so was Wingels. Cam Atkinson - is it really our M.O. to draft a 5'7" kid out of high school? He's very skilled, but that's who the Pens were gonna use their first pick on in the draft? That seems unlikely.

So that leaves Matt Martin, who didn't seem as naturally skilled as Moon, but they were both of the annoying variety. Moon was the only offensive player on his ragtag team, he had to carry the offense on a bad Kingston team. Martin played much of the year on a line with Justin DiBenedetto and Steven Stamkos - again, the 25 goals were thought to be coat tails in all likelihood.

Again, I agree that we're not that good of a drafting team, but posting a list of players that have had coffee in the NHL that were drafted after our 4th round pick isn't the reason why.
mikey287
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,471
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Fire0nice228 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:37 am

Bowser wrote:FireOnice228 - If you are banking on the same type of scoring as last year, you need to take those glasses off. Staal's 25 goals are gone, Sutter is as third line center, he's going to fill that role well but he's not scoring like Staal did. Sullivan's 17 goals are gone, do you think Jeffrey, Tangradi, Boychuk or some other ham and egger is scoring those goals?

Do you think all of these guys are scoring at the same goals per game pace at last season.

Malkin - 50 (.66 per game)
Neal - 40 (.5)
Kunitz - 26 (.317)
Dupuis - 25 (.304)
Cooke - 19 (.231)


Sid Crosby ring a bell? There is (should be) Staal and Sullivans goals right there. if TK played all season in a top 6 role I have to think he could get to 20 again, almost double what he did last season in an injury shortened season.

I see no reason to say/assume that 71, 18, 14 couldn't be at or close to their numbers last year. Dupuis and Cooke a moderate stretch to repeat, but not a huge dropoff either. All that being said, my point still stands. There is plenty of people who can score enough to win plenty of games if they stop giving up 3-4 goals per game. Scoring isn't this teams problem, its fishing pucks outta their own net too often.
Fire0nice228
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,583
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: refs fault

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby shmenguin on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:33 am

I think that there's enough wrong with the guys we have drafted that you don't have to go to the well of the guys we haven't drafted.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,071
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:41 am

FireOnIce - And... this isn't simply about scoring 5 goals per game. It is called depth. When you fish in a pond full of a undrafted free agents, waiver wire scraps, and hoping for excess defensemen to trade for a forwards, that's just not going to work long term. Between now and start of '14-15 season, there's going to need to be some crafty roster management by Shero to have a quality supporting cast for Crosby and Malkin.

mikey287 - No one needs travel receipts, if I recall they have one person who scouts in Europe, that's not good enough. That's unacceptable to just ignore a large region of hockey players. The point of posting all those draft picks is the comment that I can't expect to get a 4th or 5th round pick to turn into a top six winger or quality depth. Which I think Cam Atkinson applies to second line depth as a 6th round pick. It won't happen ever year, no one expects that, at least I don't. But I don't expect someone in any round to turn into a quality player from 06-09, which they've had 1 forward turn into something (Staal) and really don't see much from 10-12 drafts. Bennett is the lone guy that I think has a real good shot to be a first or second line winger. If you evaluate the scouting department, two scoring forwards (Staal & Bennett) from 06-10 isn't good enough.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Bowser on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:44 am

shmenguin - When someone says you can't get those type of players later in the draft, well they are wrong. Look at the lists from 06-12, there's plenty of examples of players taken from rounds 2-7 that have made the NHL, have top 2 line roles, and guys who will eventually do it. The drafts from 10-12 is early but I don't see much other than Bennett for the Penguins.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,960
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Re: A Cold Draft on Penguins Prospect List

Postby Fire0nice228 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:22 am

Out of ALL the players you've got listed only a handful are game changers (and likely unable to fit in the current cap structure nowdays anyway). Most of the rest are interchangable with pieces already on the roster or easily obtainable damn near every off season through free agency. As it is, if Staal would have signed then this is much less of a problem, top end and depth is solved with one player. But, you can't blame Shero for Staal not taking the offer to stay that he eventually signed in Carolina.

I'm not talking about scoring 5 goals a game either. Id like to see 2-1, 3-2 wins in tight games playoff style.

You want a top 6 full of household names? Get rid of one of 87 or 71 and spread their cap hit over 2 players.

I'm gonna laugh the next time Shero makes a D for F trade that has everyone creaming themselves.
Fire0nice228
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,583
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: refs fault

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

e-mail