1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

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1/3 2013 season done. What do you think are the Strengths & Weaknesses of this Pens team?

Poll ended at Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:13 pm

Paul Martin's Improved Play - Strength
20
17%
MAF/Vokun Solid Goaltending - Strength
15
13%
Healthy & Productive Crosby - Strength
15
13%
Relatively Injury Free Squad - Strength
4
3%
Available Cap/Salary Space - Strength
5
4%
Ability To Win On The Road - Strength
8
7%
Revolving winger for Geno\Neal - Weakness
11
9%
3 goals, -2, 26 Pims, Where's Geno? - Weakness
9
8%
Stupid Penalty Troubles - Weakness
14
12%
Record Vs Elite Teams - Weakness
5
4%
Poor Record at Console - Weakness
6
5%
Inability to hold leads - Weakness
6
5%
 
Total votes : 118

1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby Penspal on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:13 pm

With 1/3 of the 48 game season complete, what's your take on the Pens strengths and weaknesses so far? Please pick 3 Strengths & 3 Weaknesses as you see them.

*NOTE* - I had some difficulty picking weaknesses due to the success of the team and the fact they have not played Montreal or Boston yet. Other than NJ, no top teams so far on schedule. To find weaknesses, I dug deep into negative LGP posts, some of which I do not personally agree with, but I had to get them from somewhere and want to be objective :fist:
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:34 pm

Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby RxBandit66 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:39 pm

Needs include a physical veteran depth guy on defense and a veteran winger in the mold of Gary Roberts or Bill Guerin to skate with Geno and Neal. No flashy players or major trades are needed. Certainly a Brendan Morrow type of player would be ideal. Ray Whitney or even Jagr would compliment that line well if their respective teams are out of the hunt.

Bylsma can't forget about Vokoun and needs to keep both goalies fresh. Teams that have older goaltenders and fail to do this will come to regret it in the playoffs, especially in long overtime games. He's done a great job so far with this but Vokoun needs a game this week.

Neal and Malkin need to stop taking penalties, especially in the offensive zone. Neal has scored some great goals but he only has a couple of assists and needs to play better away from the puck. He's the worst +/- on the team.

In order to keep Letang healthy and rested, he should get reduced minutes on the PK and late in games when the team has a multiple goal lead. Niskanen and Bortuzzo are good enough to be able to absorb some of those minutes. Letang was tired/injured the past three playoffs, I don't care what anyone says.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby slappybrown on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:52 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:05 pm

slappybrown wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.


Secondary scoring is goals coming from the bottom 6 in my definition. Dupuis and Kunitz are first liners so they most definitely are not secondary. In the games where they've lost, the lack of scoring in the depth lines has been painfully obvious.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby Gaucho on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:08 pm

Is it ok to simply check every box?
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby slappybrown on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:20 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.


Secondary scoring is goals coming from the bottom 6 in my definition. Dupuis and Kunitz are first liners so they most definitely are not secondary. In the games where they've lost, the lack of scoring in the depth lines has been painfully obvious.

That's an odd definition IMO. I'm not sure what kind of scoring one can "expect" from a team's third and fourth lines. Kennedy scoring is found money. Same for Cooke. Sutter I'd like to see supplement the top two lines with 15-20 a year, so maybe he could be potting a better rate. But I don't know that I "expect" goal-scoring from those guys, let alone a line with Craig Adams and Tanner Glass.

I'd put Kunitz and Dupuis in the secondary scoring bucket because no one goes into a game saying "we need to stop them." An empty sweater on the top two lines is a big problem, especially compared to one in the bottom 6. If 87/71/11 aren't scoring, Kunitz/Dupuis/Sutter/Letang are who I look to to pick up the slack, which is exactly what "secondary scoring" is in my mind.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby pfim on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:22 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.


Secondary scoring is goals coming from the bottom 6 in my definition. Dupuis and Kunitz are first liners so they most definitely are not secondary. In the games where they've lost, the lack of scoring in the depth lines has been painfully obvious.


Even so, about 34% of the goals scored are coming from outside the top 6. It stands to reason in games they've lost that they haven't scored enough goals.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby Froggy on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:28 pm

we have 8 goals in 16 games from our 3rd and 4th line skaters. 34 goals from our top 5, since we haven't had 6 permanent skaters. our defense has scored more goals than the 9 forwards we have used in the bottom 6. that's not sustainable long term. our 3rd line has 6 goals. 6... in 16 games. secondary scoring is a huge problem on this team.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:30 pm

pfim wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.


Secondary scoring is goals coming from the bottom 6 in my definition. Dupuis and Kunitz are first liners so they most definitely are not secondary. In the games where they've lost, the lack of scoring in the depth lines has been painfully obvious.


Even so, about 34% of the goals scored are coming from outside the top 6. It stands to reason in games they've lost that they haven't scored enough goals.


Probably a lot of that 34% came from the D but I get your point. I guess my point in this is that J Staal was a contributor, TK actually used to score goals (seems odd to even think about that now), and Asham and Rupper and pals would steal a goal here and there. It just seems that if Sid's line or Nealer isn't out there, you can pretty much forget it. In the playoffs, at least the top 3 lines need to be threats or you're dead.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby slappybrown on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:40 pm

Realistically, TK should have 3 goals instead of 1. That would put him on pace for 15, which is about what he is: a 15-goal scorer. I don't see TK's two "missing" goals as being a big difference. Cooke has 2 goals. Sutter has 2, maybe he should have 3 or 4. I don't see this as an issue, but I hear where you guys are coming from.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby columbia on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:43 pm

If blown scoring opportunities were a positive, Boychuk would still be in the lineup.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:46 pm

columbia wrote:If blown scoring opportunities were a positive, Boychuk would still be in the lineup.


By that logic, Malkin should be a healthy scratch, too.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby pfim on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:47 pm

Well if the argument is that Sutter isn't as productive as Staal, then you'll get no argument here. Though Staal got over 20 minutes a night last year and had fairly significant PP time.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby columbia on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:48 pm

Lol

Just saying that the should have scored argument is a weak defense of any player.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:51 pm

columbia wrote:Lol

Just saying that the should have scored argument is a weak defense of any player.


What about the argument that he set Malkin up with grade A chances that Malkin couldn't finish?
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby slappybrown on Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:54 pm

pfim wrote:Well if the argument is that Sutter isn't as productive as Staal, then you'll get no argument here. Though Staal got over 20 minutes a night last year and had fairly significant PP time.

Sutter's been getting 1:26 PP/TOI v. 1:59 PP/TOI for Staal. Closer than I thought. Staal did play significantly more at ES (3:30 more) per game compared to Sutter. That third line -- even apart from the goal scoring discussion -- has been unquestionably worse from a non-scoresheet possession standpoint.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby Penspal on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:15 pm

Gaucho wrote:Is it ok to simply check every box?


8-) 6 max
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby shmenguin on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:30 pm

slappybrown wrote:
pfim wrote:Well if the argument is that Sutter isn't as productive as Staal, then you'll get no argument here. Though Staal got over 20 minutes a night last year and had fairly significant PP time.

Sutter's been getting 1:26 PP/TOI v. 1:59 PP/TOI for Staal. Closer than I thought. Staal did play significantly more at ES (3:30 more) per game compared to Sutter. That third line -- even apart from the goal scoring discussion -- has been unquestionably worse from a non-scoresheet possession standpoint.


seriously. it's ok to say that sutter is a capable 3rd line center (though i can't say i've been wow'ed in that regard), but you can't try to qualify why his offensive stats aren't as good as staal's with any other explanation besides "he's nowhere near staal's talent level".
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby pens_CT on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:34 pm

pfim wrote:Well if the argument is that Sutter isn't as productive as Staal, then you'll get no argument here. Though Staal got over 20 minutes a night last year and had fairly significant PP time.

I guess that's why the trade wasn't Staal for Sutter straight up. :idea: Both GM's realized who was getting the better player and it wasn't Pittsburgh.
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby littlemoonboot on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:36 pm

I voted 4 positive, 2 negative. Right now I think the Pens are doing all right, could be better could be worse. Need more discipline with the penalties and retaliating but we've seen them in worse spots. :)
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby penny lane on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:32 pm

pens have a shutdown defensive pair
goaltending
Sid
Neal

with their weak ;) home record , going to have to watch the winning.
8-) :P
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby IMFC on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:34 pm

Good to see that blind passes and unforced turnovers are not a weakness. The cup is ours!
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:45 pm

A net front presence
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Re: 1/3 Season - What are Pens Strengths & Weaknesses?

Postby Gaucho on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:50 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:A net front presence


Strength? (Kunitz)
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