I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby shmenguin on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:02 pm

mikey287 wrote:Marginal hitter? He's a good hitter...


layman question...

glass and adams hit a lot, but we never notice because they all kind of have a "meh" impact. as opposed to vitale who actually doesn't hit a lot, but looks like a wrecking ball when he does. so the question is, how important is it that these hits have some oomph behind them? what's the quality/quantity balance? i remember Pierre used to pump up darren helm in the 09 finals because he was throwing hits all over the place. but it was like who gives a ****, because he was just bouncing off people like a gnat. from my couch, i'd rather see vitale out there hitting than glass - even though he only has half as many hits. is that wrong?
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby MarioLives on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:07 pm

On "blast"? Who are you Slim shady? Glass does what he is supposed to do. Be a 4th liner. This team has much bigger problems than Glass
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby MarioLives on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:08 pm

shmenguin wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Marginal hitter? He's a good hitter...


layman question...

glass and adams hit a lot, but we never notice because they all kind of have a "meh" impact. as opposed to vitale who actually doesn't hit a lot, but looks like a wrecking ball when he does. so the question is, how important is it that these hits have some oomph behind them? what's the quality/quantity balance? i remember Pierre used to pump up darren helm in the 09 finals because he was throwing hits all over the place. but it was like who gives a ****, because he was just bouncing off people like a gnat. from my couch, i'd rather see vitale out there hitting than glass - even though he only has half as many hits. is that wrong?


Agree. The hits have to have some sort of affect.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby The U on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:13 pm

Every time Kunitz hits somebody it's with intent to kill them. That's a hit.

Racking up hits that have no force don't do anything to hurt, intimidate, spark the team, separate man from puck, etc. those hits are of no value.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby shmenguin on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:14 pm

The U wrote:Every time Kunitz hits somebody it's with intent to kill them. That's a hit.

Racking up hits that have no force don't do anything to hurt, intimidate, spark the team, separate man from puck, etc. those hits are of no value.


is that really true, though? i doubt it. you're still talking about strong dudes putting their shoulder into you over and over (weird sentence). that has to have some sort of value - even if you're not making the boards rattle
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby scals37 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:19 pm

shmenguin wrote:
The U wrote:Every time Kunitz hits somebody it's with intent to kill them. That's a hit.

Racking up hits that have no force don't do anything to hurt, intimidate, spark the team, separate man from puck, etc. those hits are of no value.


is that really true, though? i doubt it. you're still talking about strong dudes putting their shoulder into you over and over (weird sentence). that has to have some sort of value - even if you're not making the boards rattle

the base purpose of hitting IS to separate the man from the puck.. that's how the stat is recorded.. Glass is doing his job just fine, although I'd like to see less penalties

I think the new crack down on boarding and such has really deterred a lot of hard forechecking forwards for the time being, that is until the inevitably inconsistent officiating stops calling them so much
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby ron_duguays_hair on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:22 pm

My main problem with Glass is the lack of energy he brings to the fourth line. He's too slow on the forecheck. Other issues include sub par penalty killer and terrible penalties.


I feel our 4th line is incapable of turning a game positively for us. They just eat up minutes and salary.

The whole "he's a fourth liner what do you expect" argument is lame. Fourth lines need to be successful for championships. Sorry I am not willing to settle with what we are currently rolling out there.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby The Snapshot on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:26 pm

For me, there are two kind of hits - one is just after the puck is released and the other actually separates the player from the puck or forces a hurried, errant pass.

I believe that Glass and Adams deal almost exclusively in the former rather than the latter. These hits can still accumulate over a game, but I really wish someone with more speed occupied their roles.

The reason you notice Vitale is because he deals more in the latter.
Last edited by The Snapshot on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:27 pm

meow wrote:Someone has to play on the fourth line. How about a fourth line guy?


/thread
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby Penspal on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:28 pm

To some, the question is.....Is the Glass half full, or half empty.

- more hits please
- fights (better than advertised)
- mouth (please keep shut - Briere slam totally unnecessary & a potential opponent motivator)
- generally, would like to see him have more of an impact (hits, shots, pk, 4th line spark factor)

Call it half full, or half empty, You've still got some drink left and time to get better.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:34 pm

shmenguin wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Marginal hitter? He's a good hitter...


layman question...

glass and adams hit a lot, but we never notice because they all kind of have a "meh" impact. as opposed to vitale who actually doesn't hit a lot, but looks like a wrecking ball when he does. so the question is, how important is it that these hits have some oomph behind them? what's the quality/quantity balance? i remember Pierre used to pump up darren helm in the 09 finals because he was throwing hits all over the place. but it was like who gives a ****, because he was just bouncing off people like a gnat. from my couch, i'd rather see vitale out there hitting than glass - even though he only has half as many hits. is that wrong?


Good question. And no it's not wrong. Some guys don't (or can't) finish checks properly and they serve to merely annoy then to intimidate. First, you must establish the role of the player and his directives on the ice. With Glass, I'd want him to be my "PMD punisher", every time that a defensemen goes back to retrieve a puck behind the net, I want Tanner Glass to eviscerate him. Conversely, I would not ask that of Joe Vitale...I'd ask him to be more annoying than powerful. He's quicker and smarter and his hits and his body are more effective disrupting NZ flow or, on an aggressive forecheck, high DZ breakout tactics.

Getting hit by anyone as big as Glass wears on you, mentally and physically...one thing that people don't often take into account is the mental aspect of it. If Glass really finishes his hits hard in a playoff series, by game 3, Kimmo Timonen is not going to be thrilled with going back there, he's going to rush his decisions, he's going to take a shortcut to avoid taking the brunt of it...we saw this first hand with Sergei Gonchar, a player that was never first to the wall on retrievals, he just didn't like it...

Can Glass be an even more effective hitter? Yes. Should he be during a shortened, tightened regular season? Eh, probably not. There's a high risk of injury when you're wrecking ball. I'd rather him finish people off at an 80% clip in exchange for a 100% clip in the playoffs.

The roles are different between Glass and Vitale. Vitale, as a center, is on the screen more. Glass' biggest hits are after the camera pans away as well. As the F1, he probably has the least defensive responsibility in terms of backchecking on the rink. He cancels out his cover with a body check to the first guy with the puck. Vitale, a terrific worker in his own right, is more likely to break up a play at a point on the ice when it looks more meaningful and thus he'll look better as a result.

Personally, I'm more unhappy with the lack of identity of the fourth line than I am with the play of the fourth liners individually. I think Vitale has been splendid this year and Glass has been above average or thereabouts. We have gotten away from our cycling game and all the worker bees are lost now.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:37 pm

The Snapshot wrote:For me, there are two kind of hits - one is just after the puck is released and the other actually separates the player from the puck or forces a hurried, errant pass.

I believe that Glass and Adams deal almost exclusively in the former rather than the latter. These hits can still accumulate over a game, but I really wish someone with more speed occupied their roles.

The reason you notice Vitale is because he deals more in the latter.


This is essentially the TL;DR version of what I said. I'd also endorse this fully.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby The Snapshot on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:51 pm

mikey287 wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:For me, there are two kind of hits - one is just after the puck is released and the other actually separates the player from the puck or forces a hurried, errant pass.

I believe that Glass and Adams deal almost exclusively in the former rather than the latter. These hits can still accumulate over a game, but I really wish someone with more speed occupied their roles.

The reason you notice Vitale is because he deals more in the latter.


This is essentially the TL;DR version of what I said. I'd also endorse this fully.


Yeah the ability to surprise players at the NHL level takes speed. You can occassionally catch them looking the other way, or come from behind other guys but for the most part you have to get on them faster than they think even though they see you coming.

If you bring a load when you get there, then you may induce a little flinching - but neither Adams or Glass scare anyone.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby IMFC on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:18 pm

mikey287 wrote:We have gotten away from our cycling game and all the worker bees are lost now.


'Lost' is a great word here - when worker bees get lost they make mistakes trying to do something - explains a lot to me.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby Luckybreak on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:22 pm

The Snapshot wrote:For me, there are two kind of hits - one is just after the puck is released and the other actually separates the player from the puck or forces a hurried, errant pass.

I believe that Glass and Adams deal almost exclusively in the former rather than the latter. These hits can still accumulate over a game, but I really wish someone with more speed occupied their roles.

The reason you notice Vitale is because he deals more in the latter.


Absolutely agree with this. And the hits after puck release are inevitably less effective because the target has got time to brace/the hitter lets up for fear of being called for a late hit.

I love what Vitale brings to the 4th line (particularly ability to draw penalties - is there a stat for that?).

Not sure why RS and DB talked of Glass playing shifts on Geno's wing pre-season - he really doesn't seem to have the speed/hands/IQ to be considered an option there IMO. Not a fan of 2yr contract but Shero's unlikely to pay Prust money for the 4th line (could argue this one either way, personally I'd like a little more depth/ability in the bottom 6 but the cap is a ***** :D ).

I still miss Rupp!
Last edited by Luckybreak on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:23 pm

Yeah, I think that's pretty evident that our bottom six forwards have lost their way. The individuals are getting blamed (Kennedy, Glass) but it's tough to figure out what their objective is out there, I wonder if they know...
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby Pitts on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:26 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:lass criticism makes me question this board's analysis of other areas on the team. If you're upset the 4th line winger isn't scoring enough, what are you expectations of everyone else?

#UtterBollocks

As a side, I wished I sucked as much as Glass to play hockey and make that kind of change.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby mikey287 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:27 pm

Luckybreak wrote:I love what Vitale brings to the 4th line (particularly ability to draw penalties - is there a stat for that?).


Not an official one, no. However...

Penalties Drawn per 60 minutes (among Penguins skaters):
1. Craig Adams - 2.2
2. Zach Boychuk - 2.0
3. Evgeni Malkin - 1.9
4. Sidney Crosby - 1.6
5. Tyler Kennedy - 1.3
6. Joe Vitale - 1.3
7. Dustin Jeffrey - 1.3
8. Chris Kunitz - 1.2
9. James Neal - 1.0
10. Tanner Glass - 0.9
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby RxBandit66 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:31 pm

mikey287 wrote:Yeah, I think that's pretty evident that our bottom six forwards have lost their way. The individuals are getting blamed (Kennedy, Glass) but it's tough to figure out what their objective is out there, I wonder if they know...


This is a very valid question/argument. In theory, if the Pens got a 2 or 3 goal lead in games, the bottom 6 should be able to go out there and play suffocating defense, not make boneheaded decisions with the puck and take minor penalties. It's just alarming how frequently they fail to get pucks deep, pass up chances to rub out an opponent along the boards, or pass up a good opportunity to shoot the puck.

This whole "pass of the pads" thing is stupid too. Just put the puck on net and get a faceoff in their end. Vitale is winning 64% of his draws. Win faceoffs and bottle them up in the defensive zone. Wear the opposition down and keep them trapped and scrambling for loose pucks in their own end.

No third or fourth line should EVER give up a 3-on-1 against when the team has a 2 goal lead.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby Rocco on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:33 pm

Strong take, bro. Strong take.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby Luckybreak on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:33 pm

mikey287 wrote:Yeah, I think that's pretty evident that our bottom six forwards have lost their way. The individuals are getting blamed (Kennedy, Glass) but it's tough to figure out what their objective is out there, I wonder if they know...


TK deserves a larger portion of the criticism than Glass for individual play but they all seem to be guessing what the system requires of them. Not much gel or chemistry but there is a lack of personality/leadership in the bottom 6. Sutter is capable of being that guy but maybe not for a few years. Asham/Rupp/Talbot were all very likeable in interviews etc but I don't get that vibe from Glass.
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby Luckybreak on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:41 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:I love what Vitale brings to the 4th line (particularly ability to draw penalties - is there a stat for that?).


Not an official one, no. However...

Penalties Drawn per 60 minutes (among Penguins skaters):
1. Craig Adams - 2.2
2. Zach Boychuk - 2.0
3. Evgeni Malkin - 1.9
4. Sidney Crosby - 1.6
5. Tyler Kennedy - 1.3
6. Joe Vitale - 1.3
7. Dustin Jeffrey - 1.3
8. Chris Kunitz - 1.2
9. James Neal - 1.0
10. Tanner Glass - 0.9


Cheers Mikey, interesting to compare this to penalties taken, kind of a penalty plus/minus if you will (excluding fighting).
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Re: I'm putting Tanner Glass on blast

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:50 pm

I almost think Glass' decrease in hits has something to do with the Pens system. I notice that a lot of the teams in the west encourage players to finish their hits whether the man still has the puck or not. The Pens system seems to dictate that as soon as the puck is moved, your feet should be moving towards where the puck is going as opposed to continuing into your hit.
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