The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

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The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:48 am

Stats for the 4th line of the Pens, which consists of Tanner Glass, Joe Vitale, Craig Adams:

66 games played, 2 goals, 3 assists, and a minus 21

There's been a lot of negative talk about Kennedy, and the need for a second line wing, and all those other things, but perhaps this entire line needs re-tooled, because these numbers are awful. The defenders of these players will say they kill penalties and +/- does not matter, but let's be realistic.

Bylsma loves this line too, and he uses it frequently. The line just lacks the toughness, hockey sense, and chemistry to be effective. Players like Jarkko Ruutu and Mike Rupp are sorely missed!
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Gaucho on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:04 pm

Not even close.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby slappybrown on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:05 pm

Is Tangradi on the 4th line in WPG? If so, then no by default.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:09 pm

i guess if you are depending on the 4th line to either put points up, or play shut down defense, then yes. they are bad. fortunately, the role of the 4th line is not really either of those things. so they are the worst 4th line in the league at things that don't have anything to do with playing on the 4th line.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby TheHammer24 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:12 pm

This thread could be retitled Fourth Lines are generally bad.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Hawkeynut on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:13 pm

Who cares? It's a 4th line.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby mikey287 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:25 pm

I haven't been proud of their work individually, but I think it falls on coaching, not personnel...they don't seem to have a direction out there, they don't have a goal out there...

That's one thing I've always made it a point to do for some of my lower line guys, my energy guys that don't have a ton of puck skills...I give them a goal to accomplish on their shift...doesn't have to be much, can be abstract even, but give them a task and they'll complete it...
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:27 pm

4th lines may not generally matter, but its nice when they are useful.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Steve on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:30 pm

It's not even the worst 4th line on it's own team.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Beveridge on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:31 pm

The only useful stat that is posted is the -21 and that is debatable on how useful it is.

If you want to gauge a 4th line, I say look at hits, turnovers/takeaways, offensive ice zone time, penalties drawn/penalties taken.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:37 pm

Yeah, the only way to judge a 4th line are by overly specific metrics or wonky stats like hits or +/-
Last edited by Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby meow on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:37 pm

The "worst 4-line line in hockey" has one of the top face-off men and two pretty good killers. They might stink at even strength, but they have roles to play and play them very well.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:37 pm

our 4th line started to go into the tank once bylsma took over - which is a little ironic considering his playing career.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:43 pm

shmenguin wrote:our 4th line started to go into the tank once bylsma took over - which is a little ironic considering his playing career.

I actually would argue it was the 2007 trade deadline when we replaced petrovizcky with laraque, but that's just me.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Gaucho on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:48 pm

As soon as Glass or Vitale score a goal people will want to give him a try on one of the top lines.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Mongoose87 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:49 pm

Froggy wrote:
shmenguin wrote:our 4th line started to go into the tank once bylsma took over - which is a little ironic considering his playing career.

I actually would argue it was the 2007 trade deadline when we replaced petrovizcky with laraque, but that's just me.

You obviously don't remember when Laraque used to get our good players a thirty second breather by possessing the puck in the offensive zone single-handedly.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:00 pm

mikey287 wrote:I haven't been proud of their work individually, but I think it falls on coaching, not personnel...they don't seem to have a direction out there, they don't have a goal out there...

That's one thing I've always made it a point to do for some of my lower line guys, my energy guys that don't have a ton of puck skills...I give them a goal to accomplish on their shift...doesn't have to be much, can be abstract even, but give them a task and they'll complete it...


See, this is what I think also. Glass was a great energy guy before he came here. Vitale appears to have great jump and wins a ton of draws. Adams is all heart and blocks shots, does the little things.

But together as a line, I agree they seem to not know their role. They could potentially be a shut down line if they more or less trapped and played dump and chase. They could be a good energy line, as the players have enough of the individual components to succeed on a checking line.

And normally +/- is an overrated stat, but on a team that has scored more goals than they have given up, this is an eye popping number. At the very least, they are not being used correctly, you are correct there.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby penmyst on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:04 pm

Mongoose87 wrote:You obviously don't remember when Laraque used to get our good players a thirty second breather by possessing the puck in the offensive zone single-handedly.


What has been the glaring trouble with the Pens 4th line (and even 3rd line) is exactly that they do not possess the puck in the offensive zone for any extended periods of time. Almost ever.

I don't care about checkers getting goals or their plus/minus (which is always messed up since your checkers tend to draw assignment against the other team's good players on purpose). But puck possession does one key thing: keeps the other team from finding all the weaknesses in your end of the ice.

The Red Wings/Blackhawks game last weekend had one of "those" shifts by Chicago's checking line. It went on for what seemed like 10 minutes, with a couple of players getting on from the bench it was so 100% controlled by the Hawks.

When is the last time you can remember the Pens 4th or 3rd liners doing that?

Watch and note how many times a game they come up ice... chip puck in... instantly controlled by the opponent.... and easily with no resistance by the Pens are able to move the puck right into offensive attack within seconds..

This is something that has been bothering me for the last year or so, and it seems to have gotten WORSE this season. It's not only a systemic problem in the offensive zone, it's afflicting the Pens in their own zone. Good TEAMWORK is needed to cycle pucks effectively, as well as move them out of deep in your end (to thwart the other team cycling). Again, watch and note how many Pens passes along the boards are weighted badly (meaning they don't go to a teammate with control, but instead fly past him or are short of him) which leads to loss of possession or WAY TOO MANY 50/50 pucks coming FROM Pens possession.

Good teamwork, consistent location, and well coached players (as in know where to be, where to throw a puck, spacing) are all necessary to keep *quality* control of pucks. The Pens don't do enough of it, outside of super-grinder Sid and his grindy buddies, or if Geno goes on one of his ballet streaks in the offensive zone.
Last edited by penmyst on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby wondermoose on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:06 pm

The fourth line could get away with contributing practically nothing to the offense if they weren't on the ice for so many goals. Or, at the very least, consistently getting the forecheck grind on. However, they're doing neither. Fortunately, it's a pretty easy/cheap offseason or trade-deadline fix (when compared to, say, finding Crosby a winger).

Also, I love Craig Adams, but I am starting to fear he's wearing thin and Bylsma sees too much of himself in Adams to take him out.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Mongoose87 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:10 pm

penmyst wrote:
Mongoose87 wrote:You obviously don't remember when Laraque used to get our good players a thirty second breather by possessing the puck in the offensive zone single-handedly.

INSERT INSIGHTFUL POST HERE



I completely agree.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:11 pm

where have all the thorburns gone
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Beveridge on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:12 pm

wondermoose wrote:Also, I love Craig Adams, but I am starting to fear he's wearing thin and Bylsma sees too much of himself in Adams to take him out.


You aren't the first to do it and won't be the last.

Why, oh why, do we blame coaching decisions based on the type of career/player our coach was??????????


In that case, lets get Gretzky as our coach. I bet he would be FANTASTIC.


There are so many good coaches who never played in the minors let alone the league. There have been terrible coaches who were really good players in the league.


I can't think of a dumber argument than "well Blysma was a career 4th liner / grinder"
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:14 pm

bold prediction for 2013. adams will be re-signed.

i think he's a slug, but that's not relevant. the team seems to like him and he's the same player now as he was last year. why wouldn't they bring him back at the same price? and do we have anyone to bring up from WBS?
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:15 pm

Why do we only blame the coach for whether or not players play?
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby bh on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:16 pm

I feel like they are not helping out as much as they used to do.
I also feel like there is a weird mix of size and speed. Adams is bigger but pretty slow. Vitale is quick and speedy, but he's pretty small and weak on the puck. Glass is just right. Not too slow and not too small. But it's just an odd 4th line.
I miss Rupp and Laraque and Adams in his prime.
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