The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby wondermoose on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:18 pm

Beveridge wrote:
wondermoose wrote:Also, I love Craig Adams, but I am starting to fear he's wearing thin and Bylsma sees too much of himself in Adams to take him out.


You aren't the first to do it and won't be the last.

Why, oh why, do we blame coaching decisions based on the type of career/player our coach was??????????


In that case, lets get Gretzky as our coach. I bet he would be FANTASTIC.


There are so many good coaches who never played in the minors let alone the league. There have been terrible coaches who were really good players in the league.


I can't think of a dumber argument than "well Blysma was a career 4th liner / grinder"


Wait, it's dumb to suggest that since Bylsma was a fringe fourth-liner that he may believe fringe fourth-liners have their place?

Hmph, I must be getting this logic thing wrong all the time.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:22 pm

Superstars usually are less desirable as coaches anyway. It's not like Gretzky could coach "all you have to do is be the best player ever". Not that superstars don't have hockey smarts, but someone with extensive natural abilities will be less reliant on a coach for success, so the concept of teaching and learning might be lost in them
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Penspal on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:28 pm

CHEMISTRY. Completely agree that each player adds value to the team, but they just can't seem to click as a unit.

In related good news, Pens top 2 lines are better than 80% of all other lines, meaning the 4th liners don't see very much ice (might also explain the chemistry issue)
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby iWonTheCup87 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:33 pm

showing stats on a 4th line is pointless. I could care less how many points they have, their job is to bring energy not score goals.

this means nothing
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby The Snapshot on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:38 pm

iWonTheCup87 wrote:showing stats on a 4th line is pointless. I could care less how many points they have, their job is to bring energy not score goals.

this means nothing


The counter to that though is that they don't bring energy. They do not help wear down the D. They more often than not are pinned in their own end "surviving".

For most 4th lines, not getting scored on is enough. They have not been successful in that regard either, but on the Pens the 4th line is supposed to help wear doen the D by playing in the opponent's end. I know that is difficult when they end up out against the other team's top line, but they have been outplayed head to head with the opponent's 3rd and 4th lines too.

They are not very good. They are a bigger issue than most people think - witness the "who cares" statements in this thread.

You need a 4th line and ours stinks right now.
Last edited by The Snapshot on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:41 pm

the counter to that would be that we didn't really have a "4th line" the year we won the cup.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Beveridge on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:44 pm

shmenguin wrote:the counter to that would be that we didn't really have a "4th line" the year we won the cup.


Our "4th line" was what? Adams and Dupuis (Satan was sprinkled in there, QUEUE THE PICTURE!)

We skated 7 D once Gonchar came back at end of Caps series for most games if I recall.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:45 pm

it was adams every night, dupuis some nights, satan some night, sykora some nights, sid/geno double shifting some nights...

not really much of a "line".
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby The Snapshot on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:46 pm

shmenguin wrote:the counter to that would be that we didn't really have a "4th line" the year we won the cup.


We played 4 lines in the season and the playoffs? Not sure what you mean. Sykora/Satan/Adams and Dupuis got way less TOI, but they played. There were mixed lines throughout, but there were 12 forwards getting 8-10 minutes of time minimum.

Should I say, we need 12 bodies?
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:50 pm

In the finals, we dressed 7 D and double shifted Crosby with Satan. Not really sure that counts as a 4th line
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby meecrofilm on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:52 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:4th lines may not generally matter, but its nice when they are useful.


This. See: L.A. in last year's playoffs.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby The Snapshot on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:54 pm

Froggy wrote:In the finals, we dressed 7 D and double shifted Crosby with Satan. Not really sure that counts as a 4th line


You're right, we did, but we still need 11 then. So either Glass or Adams need to play better.

Plus, we need to play 4 lines in the regular season at least with the condensed schedule. You can double Malkin or Crosby, so you need these guys.

It's not the end of the world, but they could certainly cast better players than Adams and/or Glass in that role right now.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:57 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
Froggy wrote:In the finals, we dressed 7 D and double shifted Crosby with Satan. Not really sure that counts as a 4th line


You're right, we did, but we still need 11 then. So either Glass or Adams need to play better.

Plus, we need to play 4 lines in the regular season at least with the condensed schedule. You can double Malkin or Crosby, so you need these guys.

It's not the end of the world, but they could certainly cast better players than Adams and/or Glass in that role right now.


i agree with all of this. it was interesting in the Tampa game how, because we were at a rare "slow point" in the schedule, we saw a lot less of the 4th line.

and i suppose if we're talking about 09, double shifting sid or geno was actually a worthy cause, since satan, sykora or dupuis was one of the guys they would be out there with. right now, i almost chuckle whenever i see sid out there with adams and glass. i mean...what are you really trying to accomplish there?
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby slappybrown on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:16 pm

Its hard for me to understand how a line that adds no value and is out there for a GA at ES nearly every game is "no big deal."
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:19 pm

slappybrown wrote:Its hard for me to understand how a line that adds no value and is out there for a GA at ES nearly every game is "no big deal."


each of them is like a -7 or something, i think. so that would be one out of every 3 games, they're on the ice for a goal. still not good, considering that they simply don't score but not THAT bad.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby KG on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:22 pm

Vitale/Adams/Glass on paper is really your proto-typical 4th line. High energy, grinding. That +/- stat is rough, no doubt.

That line is what it is. Pens need to upgrade Kennedy on the 3rd line, or insert a big time wing and move Dupuis to the 3rd line.

Ott and Regehr for the win...
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:27 pm

Yeah, I think the poor +/-is more from having bad offense than playing bad defense. if we're letting up 2.5 goals a game, just as an example, and like 1 out of every 3 games, the 4th line gets scored on, that's one out of every 7.5 goals against is against the 4th line. That really doesn't seem super outrageous.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:33 pm

In a shortened season, the 4th line is very important IMO. With fewer breaks between games this season, those guys should be able to come off the bench and provide a spark, and also eat up minutes when the team has a big lead. It's great that Sid's conditioning is so good that he can play almost 30 minutes some nights. But in all reality he shouldn't be doing that if the team wants to look at the big picture.

This current 4th line can't be trusted at all with a lead, let alone counted upon.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby slappybrown on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:36 pm

Froggy wrote:Yeah, I think the poor +/-is more from having bad offense than playing bad defense. if we're letting up 2.5 goals a game, just as an example, and like 1 out of every 3 games, the 4th line gets scored on, that's one out of every 7.5 goals against is against the 4th line. That really doesn't seem super outrageous.

That's not really accurate. You aren't accounting for PP goals allowed/EN goals allowed from the raw totals. We are talking ES.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Big Easy Pens Fan on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:37 pm

Two goals. Hmm. Adams has both of them...in the same game. And one was an empty netter. :roll: That being said, I like Adams. He's the best of the three on that line. And THAT being siad, I also Vitale. OH well, what do I know? :lol:

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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:56 pm

slappybrown wrote:
Froggy wrote:Yeah, I think the poor +/-is more from having bad offense than playing bad defense. if we're letting up 2.5 goals a game, just as an example, and like 1 out of every 3 games, the 4th line gets scored on, that's one out of every 7.5 goals against is against the 4th line. That really doesn't seem super outrageous.

That's not really accurate. You aren't accounting for PP goals allowed/EN goals allowed from the raw totals. We are talking ES.


Also true. Moral of the story is that you cant really tell a whole lot from just looking at +/-.

I only have phone internet now, so maybe when I get home I'll look into this, but I'd be interested to see the break down in goals against at ES/ES minutes.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:03 pm

Froggy wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
Froggy wrote:Yeah, I think the poor +/-is more from having bad offense than playing bad defense. if we're letting up 2.5 goals a game, just as an example, and like 1 out of every 3 games, the 4th line gets scored on, that's one out of every 7.5 goals against is against the 4th line. That really doesn't seem super outrageous.

That's not really accurate. You aren't accounting for PP goals allowed/EN goals allowed from the raw totals. We are talking ES.


Also true. Moral of the story is that you cant really tell a whole lot from just looking at +/-.


i usually hate +/-, but i think it has more merit than usual in this case since you're removing many of the "what else is this line supposed to offer besides defensive responsibility" variables.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby Froggy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:07 pm

Right, but is the one goal against every 3 games really significant? They don't contribute ES offense, so they are going to be significantly minus unless they are perfect
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:14 pm

While I know many of you have some sort of man-crush on Adams or Vitale, let's face it guys, our 4th line is nowhere near good-even for a 4th line. Why can't we admit it? We are ranked a mediocre 18th in PK, so I don't care for the "but they're good at killing penalties!" line either. Let's not forget both of those goals came in the same game.

Vitale is a good energy guy, but he can't do it by himself. They have absolutely cycling abilities whatsoever, something we have always gotten from our bottom two lines. It's not a huge problem, but it helps when you have a Talbot that can hit but also score once in 40 games.
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Re: The Worst 4th Line In Hockey?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:16 pm

Froggy wrote:Right, but is the one goal against every 3 games really significant? They don't contribute ES offense, so they are going to be significantly minus unless they are perfect


judging significance is going to be slippery. but let's look at relativity...

for years, our 4th line has been at about a -6 average per player over a full season. it's surprisingly consistent. if the current numbers end up matching their extrapolation and we shoot up to -15 or -20 per player over 82 games, then significant or not, that's still garbage and should be rectified. despite +/- still being a pretty flawed metric
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