Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Desiato on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:53 pm

Inkio wrote:-Whatever Disco and Crosby said in the locker room after the 1st should be said before every game.

"ignore the game plan, go out and win it for us!" Same thing EJ used to say to Mario and JJ, except they weren't following his game plan to begin with.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby joe icepick on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:03 pm

Sid is the most talented grinder ever. The last two games is why he is the best player in the world bar none.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby joe icepick on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:05 pm

To be honest I didn't hear Crosby sucks chants last night, seemed like they were in "shock and awe" mode.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby TrueNorth on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:15 pm

shmenguin wrote:i'm not sure the flyers really tried to continue the circus in the 2nd and 3rd. as far as i can tell, the pens fell into pretty much every trap that was set. the flyers got the lead, and eased off the gas in several ways - including this one


You may be right. Perhaps this wasn’t a true test of their ability to maintain composure in the face of provocation. Unfortunately, I was only able to watch snippets from the game and couldn’t watch it in is entirety, so I was basing my comments on the assumption--never wise--that the Flyers would have been up to their old tricks and continuing what they started in the first period. I guess we’ll have to wait and see how the Pens conduct themselves should they face the Flyers in the playoffs.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:15 pm

Mark Madden's opening monologue on PenguinsLive was awesome.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby TrueNorth on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:18 pm

Actually, I just realized there’s another Penguins-Flyers matchup on March 24th. That should prove interesting.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Fire0nice228 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:24 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
Fire0nice228 wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
owtahear wrote:
Steve wrote:Anyone know what specific changes DB implemented during the 2nd intermission? Since we blindly criticize him for "not being able to adjust in-game", should we go ahead and give him some credit for yesterday's game?

Obviously, the team played a different style in the 2nd and 3rd periods, and DB was able to overcome Laviolette, and his brilliant time out strategies. ;)


Fairly obvious. They played in their end, got the puck deep, didn't engage in stupidity......


The only thing I'll add is that they had 15 minutes to regroup emotionally. Someone above said that they didn't expose Vokoun to as many chances and that is partially correct. Someone else said they didn't take penalties and that is partially correct.

The chance to regroup mentally was what allowed them to calm down, but if Vokoun gave up a bad goal on one of the shots he faced (which were no less dangerous than some of the terrible goals Fleury allowed) then the Pens would have been sucked back into the hyper-emotional game that the 1st was.


I really wonder how many people on here actually understand how team psychology impacts a game, and how emotion can be a double-edged sword.

It is sickening to read how many can't enjoy a very emotional, solid road win against a hated rival. Should be a legendary win, but "experts" want to make it a symbol of how we are going to lose in the 1st round of the Playoffs in 24 more games..... :roll:


I always snicker when these type of posts come up..You do realize that you yourself are starting to sound like an "expert", right? Or maybe you sound like something else.. :roll:


Don't really care what you think of me. I know that I know the game is not all Xs and Os, and that goaltending and controlled emotion are the keys to any team's success.

I also enjoy the games and know that the LA Kings were playing terrible hockey at this time last season.

Glad I gave you a snicker.


:lol: :lol:
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Henry Hank on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:37 pm

I'm in full agreement with everyone that it's a great win. It's great to stick it to the Flyers the same way they've done to us.

But it's not a win that should make you feel good about this team. It doesn't matter whether it's the defense, the goaltending, the system, whatever - realistically, it's a combination of everything - but they're giving up way too many goals. They have dropped all the way to 23rd in the league in goals against. It's not an isolated incident. It's a regular thing. They are showing no signs of improvement.

And that brings me to where this game really doesn't make me feel good about them. What were they doing in the first? Neal getting his elbows up on Giroux, spraying snow and getting into scrums. Niskanen taking a retaliatory penalty. Fleury had to deal with some crazy bounces and bad D in front of him but at the very least one of those goals was completely unacceptable. Where are there heads that they go into Philly and that's the way they start the game? The fact that they still can't get it gives me more evidence that they simply have no ability or no desire to change anything, which is why I don't see them miraculously cutting down the goals against after it's been obscene for 40+ games going back to last spring. Sure, the Pens did things exactly how they would have wanted and came back to win, but it's a little different for Philly when they're up 4-1 and dominating the Pens in all areas. Let's see them actually from the start keep their cool against these guys.

I change nothing I've said. The team, as it's played since last March, is going no where good. I'm still waiting for any sign that they can fix the issue of giving up a ridiculous amount of goals.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Great58 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:00 pm

I'm still waiting for any sign that they can fix the issue of giving up a ridiculous amount of goals.

The last 40 minutes of hockey last night?
Their effort against Tampa on Monday?
Their road play the majority of the season exlcuding the last road trip?

I agree things have gotten loose of late, but I think their road play over the course of the season has been very good and more indicative of their playoff chances than their CEC play or the MTL/Carolina/FLA trip.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby RxBandit66 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:03 pm

Henry Hank wrote:I'm in full agreement with everyone that it's a great win. It's great to stick it to the Flyers the same way they've done to us.

But it's not a win that should make you feel good about this team. It doesn't matter whether it's the defense, the goaltending, the system, whatever - realistically, it's a combination of everything - but they're giving up way too many goals. They have dropped all the way to 23rd in the league in goals against. It's not an isolated incident. It's a regular thing. They are showing no signs of improvement.

And that brings me to where this game really doesn't make me feel good about them. What were they doing in the first? Neal getting his elbows up on Giroux, spraying snow and getting into scrums. Niskanen taking a retaliatory penalty. Fleury had to deal with some crazy bounces and bad D in front of him but at the very least one of those goals was completely unacceptable. Where are there heads that they go into Philly and that's the way they start the game? The fact that they still can't get it gives me more evidence that they simply have no ability or no desire to change anything, which is why I don't see them miraculously cutting down the goals against after it's been obscene for 40+ games going back to last spring. Sure, the Pens did things exactly how they would have wanted and came back to win, but it's a little different for Philly when they're up 4-1 and dominating the Pens in all areas. Let's see them actually from the start keep their cool against these guys.

I change nothing I've said. The team, as it's played since last March, is going no where good. I'm still waiting for any sign that they can fix the issue of giving up a ridiculous amount of goals.


Great post, and I agree nothing has changed. Based on Bylsma and Shero's assessment, they obviously have no problem with this, or it would have been dealt with over the past year. Sure, they talk about being better defensively, but the system does not lend itself to that. You are 100% correct, no team can win in the playoffs in the manner the Pens have played during the past 40 games.

The solution is obviously to shake things up, but it's hard to justify that when the team is second in the conference. I seem to remember the Devils firing their coach when they were in first place on one occasion (not positive though) because they were weak defensively. Maybe they fire an assistant coach??

Trading Letang would change the whole makeup of the team, and the players they'd get back would likely screw up the cap beyond belief, so he stays. Martin has played well, so he stays. Orpik is almost untradeable because he's one of the only true defensive d-men they have, so he stays. I'd move Niskanen and bench Engelland. Go out and get a physical stay at home guy in the mold of Hal Gill, pair him with Bortuzzo and let him develop. Put Despres with Letang and leave him there. You still have Eaton and Engelland for depth.

The "D" needs to get nastier, and by that I don't mean taking penalties. Niskanen is a good player, but he's not a good fit on this team right now IMO. He tries to be better than he really is on offense, and is not as good as he should be on defense. They need a guy who knows he's not good on offense, so is content to play solid defense. One big nasty defender and a gritty veteran winger would not necessarily make this team unbeatable, but it would improve things greatly. I can't help but think the calming and physical presence of Iginla with Sid and Kunitz would be a devastating top line. If Bennett falters, move Kunitz back with Geno and Duper with Sid. If I'm RS, I'm trading away high picks and a prospect to get the two players that could make this team frightening to play against. Right now, teams respect their offense, but they intimidate nobody. Add two players like Iginla ans Sarich, and this team would be downright scary.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Froggy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:03 pm

My biggest concern is the pk being as bad as it is. It can't be just from losing Staal and michalek, can it? I mean, that's enough to hurt, but to drop us from a top 5 unit to a bottom 10?
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pavel Bure on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:05 pm

Froggy wrote:My biggest concern is the pk being as bad as it is. It can't be just from losing Staal and michalek, can it? I mean, that's enough to hurt, but to drop us from a top 5 unit to a bottom 10?

Those were two of the top PKers on the this team. That's half of a top PK unit right there. Pretty big blow.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby meecrofilm on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:06 pm

PK was good to start the year if I remember correctly.

Doesn't help that one of our "top" PKers, Adams, is slow as balls. Can't put pressure on the other team like that. It's nice that Sid is getting more PK time. The way a pointman distrubtes the puck differs vastly when he's got Sid in his grill as opposed to a guy like Adams.

For that matter, Geno used to be a graet PKer back in the day. I'd like to see DB spot him second unit duty from time to time in that regard, like he does now with Sid (Will he? Doubtful). Put him out there with Vitale to take the faceoff if you want. Teams are way too comfortable and confident with the puck because they know there is zero threat of the puck going the other way for a SH goal. It's no coincidence we haven't scored one yet this year.
Last edited by meecrofilm on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Henry Hank on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:10 pm

40 minutes of hockey does not trump 40+ games.

They still gave up three goals against TB. Don't care that one was fluky and another happened with a few seconds left. They gave TB plenty of other chances to score. Even then, one game does not trump 40+.

They're giving up three goals a game at home. They're giving up 2.93 goals a game on the road. For sure, that number got bumped a decent bit by the last few road games. But you're looking at a really small sample before then. The big sample of games going back to last March shows this team has been awful at preventing goals no matter where they are. Not just a little flaw, this is something major and something that will sink them.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Henry Hank on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:12 pm

meecrofilm wrote:PK was good to start the year if I remember correctly.

Doesn't help that one of our "top" PKers, Adams, is slow as balls. Can't put pressure on the other team like that. It's nice that Sid is getting more PK time. The way a pointman distrubtes the puck differs vastly when he's got Sid in his grill as opposed to a guy like Adams.

For that matter, Geno used to be a graet PKer back in the day. I'd like to see DB spot him second unit duty from time to time in that regard, like he does now with Sid (Will he? Doubtful). Put him out there with Vitale to take the faceoff if you want. Teams are way too comfortable and confident with the puck because they know there is zero threat of the puck going the other way for a SH goal. It's no coincidence we haven't scored one yet this year.


I don't remember exactly where they were but the PK has been average at best all season. Since the Florida game when they gave up four, it's fallen to the category of just being plain bad. Improving the PK would at least help, but not completely solve, the goals against problem. But that's something that's been broken since the playoffs, no signs of improvement to be had yet.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Great58 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:18 pm

Henry Hank wrote:40 minutes of hockey does not trump 40+ games.

They still gave up three goals against TB. Don't care that one was fluky and another happened with a few seconds left. They gave TB plenty of other chances to score. Even then, one game does not trump 40+.

They're giving up three goals a game at home. They're giving up 2.93 goals a game on the road. For sure, that number got bumped a decent bit by the last few road games. But you're looking at a really small sample before then. The big sample of games going back to last March shows this team has been awful at preventing goals no matter where they are. Not just a little flaw, this is something major and something that will sink them.

I don't disagree that 40 minutes doesn't trump 40+ games, but if you are looking for "a sign" it's gotta start small.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby largegarlic on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:26 pm

Froggy wrote:My biggest concern is the pk being as bad as it is. It can't be just from losing Staal and michalek, can it? I mean, that's enough to hurt, but to drop us from a top 5 unit to a bottom 10?


I've been wondering about this too. The PK got lit up by the Flyers in the playoffs last year, which leads me to think it can't just be missing Staal and Michalek. I'd be very interested to hear the thoughts of others with more tactical sophistication about how to fix the PK.

My mostly uneducated opinion is that the PK is lacking in speed with the forwards and lacking in positioning/physicality with the d-men. It seems to me that the main forward Pkers are Adams, Glass, Cooke, Sutter, and Dupuis. Obviously, Dupuis is the only one with real speed (Sutter's not slow, but I wouldn't consider him fast either), which makes it harder to close down the shots from the point and still recover to a good position in the box, get to loose pucks, etc. With the d-men, it's the same problem that many people keep talking about--not being able to move people out of the crease, tie up sticks in the crease, or just plain wandering out of position and leaving players alone on the back door.

This line of reasoning leads me to agree with those who want another bottom-6 forward with some speed and grit, who can kill penalties, and a tough, positionally-sound d-man at the deadline.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Great58 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:42 pm

Corrected my numbers.
Pens had killed 9 straight going into last night, and had not given up a PPGA since the FLA game.
They gave up two last night, so they have killed 11/13 in last 4 games, or 89%. Not terrible.
Last edited by Great58 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jesse on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:46 pm

Someone mentioned adjustments.

1. Forcheck. They went with what I call a "Swing" - the perfect example of this is a shift in the third. Rather than providing token pressure from one guy, they continuously had a high guy skate in so someone was always coming with speed. So, essentially, imagine this. Crosby comes in to provide token pressure, D to D pass for Philly, Crosby heads back into the "2" slot of the 1-2-2 - now Kunitz pushes. D skates backwards to regroup for Philly, Kunitz goes into a "2" slot - Dupuis pushes up. It's a rolling forcheck. The Penguins never got caught flatfooted. Flyers couldn't fight their way out of it at all.

2. Stretch-Tip-Dump. I did this on FF for the telestrator today. In every game this year, the Flyers gave the Penguins space in the neutral zone. Last night in the first, the Flyers completely clamped down, ramped up their forcheck in a way similar to that of the Penguins late in the game. The Penguins went long stretch pass, tip in the zone, and worked the Flyers D over in the boards in an embarassing fashion. I don't think Timonen won a single puck the last two periods.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Shyster on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:47 pm

Good job of keeping the Flyers from earning points. Did the Pens have big problems against the Flyers in the playoffs last year? Sure. A good way to make sure that won't happen again would be for the Flyers to not make the playoffs in the first place.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Guinness on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:50 pm

They started the season very good on the penalty kill and goals against, and have been better - barring the 1st period last night - in that regard again lately. It's probably true that the tendency is still there, but I think it's also true that it's inaccurate to say it's been "40+ games", as though it's been an uninterrupted journey to suck.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby IanMoran on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:02 pm

Small sample size, but... in the 7 games Bortuzzo / Despres have played together - 14 goals allowed in 7 games

And a lot of those were with D that have been playing well out..

Get Engo out of there.. play both and see what happens

Orpik Martin
Letang Despres
Niksy Bortuzzo

Do it
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pens4Life on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:03 pm

Despres not playing again is just moronic from DB!? Eaton and Engo cant and shouldnt be in front of young D talent on depth chart..
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pens4Life on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:06 pm

IanMoran wrote:Small sample size, but... in the 7 games Bortuzzo / Despres have played together - 14 goals allowed in 7 games

And a lot of those were with D that have been playing well out..

Get Engo out of there.. play both and see what happens

Orpik Martin
Letang Despres
Niksy Bortuzzo

Do it


:thumb:
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby the riddler on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:08 pm

Did a little research into this idea that the Penguins are giving up to many goals and that it will prevent them from being successful in the playoffs.

The Penguins won the cup in 2008/2009 with a GA/G average of 2.84. Their GA/G average this season is 2.96. The recent winners have all been below 2.50, LA(2.07), BOS(2.30), and CHI(2.48). The Penguins GA/G has been climbing the last two seasons and has only been below 2.50 once since the lockout, 2010-2011 (2.39). So recent history suggests the Penguins are giving up to many goals if they are to be a cup team, but they did win in 08/09 with a pretty high GA/G. I didn't check to see what their GA/G was with Therrien and Bylsma during that season. They were on a roll going into the playoffs so I wouldn't be surprised if that final 25 game average was lower than the entire season average of 2.84.

They have some time to get things together and start playing better defensively but I agree with most in that they can't flip on a switch and start playing playoff hockey when the playoffs begin. They need to start now and build on it going into the playoffs.

Also interesting to note, the Blackhawks have a 1.79 GA/G average this season.
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