Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens2005 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:10 pm

joe icepick wrote:To be honest I didn't hear Crosby sucks chants last night, seemed like they were in "shock and awe" mode.


James Neal took the attention away from him.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Beveridge on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:13 pm

Maybe ACTG should think about getting Sid/Geno in on the PK. I understand the ain't broke, don't fix it mentality. However, bottom 1/3 of the league compared to top 5 last couple of seasons tells me it's in need of a tuneup.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Henry Hank on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:19 pm

Guinness wrote:They started the season very good on the penalty kill and goals against, and have been better - barring the 1st period last night - in that regard again lately. It's probably true that the tendency is still there, but I think it's also true that it's inaccurate to say it's been "40+ games", as though it's been an uninterrupted journey to suck.


Well, here are the numbers.

March 15 - April 7, 2012: 14 games, 48 goals against, 3.43 goals against per game. 35/44 (79.5%) PK
April 11 - April 22: 6 games, 30 goals against, 5.00 goals against per game. 11/23 (47.8%) PK :face:

January 19 - February 17: 16 games, 38 goals against, 2.38 goals against per game. 52/63 (82.5%) PK
February 20 - March 7: 8 games, 33 goals against, 4.13 goals against per game. 22/30 (73.3%) PK

44 games, 149 goals against, 3.39 goals against per game, 120/160 (75%) PK

They were doing a fairly good job up until the previous Flyers game but that's still a minority stretch. I thought they played pretty sloppy hockey to start the season even if they weren't giving up four or more goals routinely. The thing is, they played a lot of weak offensive teams early on but have been facing tougher offenses lately - and that will continue the rest of this month by the way. The numbers are certainly skewed both ways because of that. But if you're looking at the big picture, since Sid came back and this circus began, they've been giving up way too many goals and the PK has been trash basically the entire time. But you look at those numbers and it's clear it's not just the PK causing them to give up a lot of goals. Even if they had been killing penalties at a 90% rate over this stretch of 44 games, they would still be giving up 2.84 goals a game.

Simply put, I need to see them playing responsible hockey and keeping the puck out of their net for a pretty extended stretch before I have any faith in this team. Now until the playoffs would be a good time to start. We're at the halfway point. How they finish will show which stretch is the fluke. It could be that these last eight are just a bad stretch. If we didn't have those 20 to close last season, I might buy into that.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Beveridge on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:22 pm

Interesting part of that info above is I'd like to see what their GAA was going into March 15.

That was right at the end of their 12-13 game streak and when Sid came back.


I'm fairly certain that it was a good number (minus the johnson games).
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens2005 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:23 pm

Henry Hank wrote:
Guinness wrote:They started the season very good on the penalty kill and goals against, and have been better - barring the 1st period last night - in that regard again lately. It's probably true that the tendency is still there, but I think it's also true that it's inaccurate to say it's been "40+ games", as though it's been an uninterrupted journey to suck.


Well, here are the numbers.

March 15 - April 7, 2012: 14 games, 48 goals against, 3.43 goals against per game. 35/44 (79.5%) PK
April 11 - April 22: 6 games, 30 goals against, 5.00 goals against per game. 11/23 (47.8%) PK :face:

January 19 - February 17: 16 games, 38 goals against, 2.38 goals against per game. 52/63 (82.5%) PK
February 20 - March 7: 8 games, 33 goals against, 4.13 goals against per game. 22/30 (73.3%) PK

44 games, 149 goals against, 3.39 goals against per game, 120/160 (75%) PK

They were doing a fairly good job up until the previous Flyers game but that's still a minority stretch. I thought they played pretty sloppy hockey to start the season even if they weren't giving up four or more goals routinely. The thing is, they played a lot of weak offensive teams early on but have been facing tougher offenses lately - and that will continue the rest of this month by the way. The numbers are certainly skewed both ways because of that. But if you're looking at the big picture, since Sid came back and this circus began, they've been giving up way too many goals and the PK has been trash basically the entire time. But you look at those numbers and it's clear it's not just the PK causing them to give up a lot of goals. Even if they had been killing penalties at a 90% rate over this stretch of 44 games, they would still be giving up 2.84 goals a game.

Simply put, I need to see them playing responsible hockey and keeping the puck out of their net for a pretty extended stretch before I have any faith in this team. Now until the playoffs would be a good time to start. We're at the halfway point. How they finish will show which stretch is the fluke. It could be that these last eight are just a bad stretch. If we didn't have those 20 to close last season, I might buy into that.


I agree with everything you say, but every team has flaws and has holes in their game (unless you want to put Chicago in another stratosphere of their own).

I guess in a salary cap era you're going to have weaknesses that are sometimes beyond your ultimate control.

I don't know, like I said I agree with you wholeheartedly but am just wondering if the expectations are too high?
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Henry Hank on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:25 pm

the riddler wrote:Did a little research into this idea that the Penguins are giving up to many goals and that it will prevent them from being successful in the playoffs.

The Penguins won the cup in 2008/2009 with a GA/G average of 2.84. Their GA/G average this season is 2.96. The recent winners have all been below 2.50, LA(2.07), BOS(2.30), and CHI(2.48). The Penguins GA/G has been climbing the last two seasons and has only been below 2.50 once since the lockout, 2010-2011 (2.39). So recent history suggests the Penguins are giving up to many goals if they are to be a cup team, but they did win in 08/09 with a pretty high GA/G. I didn't check to see what their GA/G was with Therrien and Bylsma during that season. They were on a roll going into the playoffs so I wouldn't be surprised if that final 25 game average was lower than the entire season average of 2.84.

They have some time to get things together and start playing better defensively but I agree with most in that they can't flip on a switch and start playing playoff hockey when the playoffs begin. They need to start now and build on it going into the playoffs.

Also interesting to note, the Blackhawks have a 1.79 GA/G average this season.


Goals against per game after Bylsma was 2.44. That season was an oddity. They were a completely different team after Bylsma took over. I remember one stat that was looked at going into the playoffs was shot differential. There hadn't been a Cup winner with a negative shot differential in like 20 years at that time. I believe those Pens technically had a negative shot differential for the entire season but were well in the positive once Bylsma took over.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Henry Hank on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:32 pm

I agree with everything you say, but every team has flaws and has holes in their game (unless you want to put Chicago in another stratosphere of their own).

I guess in a salary cap era you're going to have weaknesses that are sometimes beyond your ultimate control.

I don't know, like I said I agree with you wholeheartedly but am just wondering if the expectations are too high?


I don't expect perfection. But the number of goals the Pens are giving up is a major, major problem. It's not just a tiny flaw. Why I find it most unacceptable is that they proved they could do it. To answer another question in a recent post, here is where they were before Crosby came back.

68 games, 170 goals against, 2.50 goals against per game. They obviously also had the top PK for real during that time period. And those numbers were even better the previous season.

That's why it just doesn't cut it to me to say that every team has some flaws. There's absolutely no reason they should be giving up this many goals. It wasn't that long ago that they were doing a legitimately good job preventing goals. Since Sid returned, they've gone all offense and have shown no sustainable ability to keep themselves in check. I'd gladly trade scoring a half goal a game for a half goal a game against. They could score a half goal a game less and still be a top five offensive team. Take 0.5 off their GAA and they're also a top ten team in that area. THAT is a recipe for a Cup contender. What they have going on is a freak show.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Desiato on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:10 pm

the riddler wrote:Did a little research into this idea that the Penguins are giving up to many goals and that it will prevent them from being successful in the playoffs.


Other factors:

- The Pens started the 08-09 season with a coach stressing defense; a coach who was actively coaching against the Pens current shortcomings: turnovers, crease clearing, shot channeling, neutral-zone play; a coach the Penguins stopped buying into, yet utilized those lessons on the way to a cup win.
- GAA in the league has gone down since 08-09:

2013 Pens:
- 25th in GA
- GAA 2.88
- League Avg GAA 2.61
- backup goalie: Tomas Vokoun

2009 Pens:
- 13th in GA; league avg
- GAA 2.71
- League Avg GAA: 2.73
- backup goalie: Dany Sabourin
Last edited by Desiato on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:12 pm

Philly media and fans talking about trading Courturier. Malkin and I approve.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Desiato on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:13 pm

Great58 wrote:I don't disagree that 40 minutes doesn't trump 40+ games, but if you are looking for "a sign" it's gotta start small.

40 minutes is a drop in the bucket. Some would say that 40 minute games epitomize the Penguins' problems this season. I think that's a gross simplificaiton though.

The final 40 minutes of the Flyers game, like any dominant segment of Penguins games this season, are not a recipe for success. It's not sustainable. Especially not in the plyoffs when obstruction will increase significantly each round. Each game, even.

Drawing from 40 minutes of shutout hockey vs a body of work of more than 1,400 minutes prior is not logical. It's pollyannaism. If it comforts you, great. But for me, as a long-time Pens fan who has seen this formula before, I'm very concerned the Pens are wasting dynasty potential--for the second time, like Mario and junior before them.
Last edited by Desiato on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Steve on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:14 pm

pens2005 wrote:
joe icepick wrote:To be honest I didn't hear Crosby sucks chants last night, seemed like they were in "shock and awe" mode.


James Neal took the attention away from him.


I heard some chants early - but the crowd seemed quiet to me, even when they went up 4-1. I also saw some kid wearing a "Crosby is a whiny little B****" shirt near the glass. I never understood why someone would hate someone enough, to wear clothing with the hated players name on it, but I guess that's just me.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Steve on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:17 pm

Shakes wrote:Via The Score:

Image

I think this is an example of the elusive "leadership" that guys like Richards and Giroux have and Sid is hoping to emulate. :wink:

Sid. Never. Stops.


This is honestly one of the coolest things I've seen Sid do on the ice. I've never seen another player use that end of the stick to play the puck, at least successfully. Also funny, when he does it, he totally fakes out the French Hick and Kunitz, who were following the puck the other way.

That entire sequence, he outworks three flyers and wins the puck, never using his stick blade haha.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby penny lane on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:26 pm

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=659008

pens v flyers ; not the flawless chicago hockey, but I found this article with some NHL players talking east/west PA games.

Erik Gudbranson, D, Florida Panthers: "If I don't get the chance to watch that game ... I'll see the game sheet after to see if the penalty box was full all game. That's fun hockey. It's in your face. It's exciting to watch."
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby farnham16 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:06 pm

I'll start with the postivies:

-Very impressed with how they adjusted after the first, Bylsma included. They were composed and played very balanced hockey. Just goes to show that when they don't fall into the Flyer trap, they are much better.
- Crosby was insane in all three zones.
- Malkin, while not on the scoresheet, was equally as impressive. He stayed out of the box, which is something he has struggled with against the Flyers, and his line was constantly in the offensive zone all game.
- Bennett showed unreal work ethic and back checking ability. He doesn't look out of place at all out there. Incredibly encouraging.
- Defense did what it had to after the train wreck that was the first period.

Now the negatives:

- First period. Everything about it was horrible. The composure, the work ethic, the decision making, the defense. It was so horrible.
- The PK. This has officially become a big weakness for the Pens, and not just against Philly. The guys that Bylsma constantly throws out there just aren't getting the job done anymore. Something HAS to be changed with it.
- Neal played a horrible game. His discipline was a joke in the first period. That penalty at the end of the first should have gotten him benched for a good deal of the second.
- Bylsma for continuing to defy logic and playing Engo over Despres. Not only is Bylsma continuing to bench a much better player for an inferior one, but Engo was directly responsible for TWO goals the Flyers scored. He was the worst player on the ice for either team. If Bylsma continues to play Engo over Despres than he should have his head checked by a doctor.
- Goals against continues to be the biggest problem now and going forward for this team. It is now the norm for this team to give up 3 or 4 goals a game. Its not just a bad strech of games, its how they play. And they cannot go anywhere in the playoffs playing with this kind of disregard for defense game in and game out. Their mindset right now whether you want to admit it or not is to play pond hockey and just outscore teams in high scoring affairs. That ain't working in the playoffs and something needs to be done about it now.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby NashvilleCat on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:17 pm

My favorite part of watching the goals from last night is seeing Giroux and Hartnel not coming back on the fifth Penguins goal. Hartnell wasn't even in the zone when Kunitz scored. Laughable, nice leadership from their captain.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Great58 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:36 pm

Desiato wrote:
Great58 wrote:I don't disagree that 40 minutes doesn't trump 40+ games, but if you are looking for "a sign" it's gotta start small.

40 minutes is a drop in the bucket. Some would say that 40 minute games epitomize the Penguins' problems this season. I think that's a gross simplificaiton though.

The final 40 minutes of the Flyers game, like any dominant segment of Penguins games this season, are not a recipe for success. It's not sustainable. Especially not in the plyoffs when obstruction will increase significantly each round. Each game, even.

Drawing from 40 minutes of shutout hockey vs a body of work of more than 1,400 minutes prior is not logical. It's pollyannaism. If it comforts you, great. But for me, as a long-time Pens fan who has seen this formula before, I'm very concerned the Pens are wasting dynasty potential--for the second time, like Mario and junior before them.

Go back and reread my prior post. My position is actually based upon a majority of their play this season, not just a 40 minute span.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Shakes on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:46 pm

Steve wrote:
Shakes wrote:Via The Score:


I think this is an example of the elusive "leadership" that guys like Richards and Giroux have and Sid is hoping to emulate. :wink:

Sid. Never. Stops.


This is honestly one of the coolest things I've seen Sid do on the ice. I've never seen another player use that end of the stick to play the puck, at least successfully. Also funny, when he does it, he totally fakes out the French Hick and Kunitz, who were following the puck the other way.

That entire sequence, he outworks three flyers and wins the puck, never using his stick blade haha.


Yeah, I watched this clip like 50 times today. It's been said, but his coordination with his skates is incredible.

With Sid, does he still have another gear? The gear we saw in Fall 2010 when he went on that absured point streak and had like 30 goals by the New Year? Maybe.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Lt. Dish on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:57 pm

Desiato wrote:
Inkio wrote:-Whatever Disco and Crosby said in the locker room after the 1st should be said before every game.

"ignore the game plan, go out and win it for us!" Same thing EJ used to say to Mario and JJ, except they weren't following his game plan to begin with.


:lol:
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby brwi on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:04 pm

joe icepick wrote:He's timid when he plays the puck. Make a decision and pass it. Wack Simmonds when the refs have there heads turned. Couple of butt ends to the back. Thats what i'm saying. Figure it out Pavel.


He needs to watch some old Tom Barrasso footage, especially when he about knocked all of Elias' teeth out with a butt-end after Elias decided to rake Barrasso's back from behind the net.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Lt. Dish on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:17 pm

Steve wrote:
pens2005 wrote:
joe icepick wrote:To be honest I didn't hear Crosby sucks chants last night, seemed like they were in "shock and awe" mode.


James Neal took the attention away from him.


I heard some chants early - but the crowd seemed quiet to me, even when they went up 4-1. I also saw some kid wearing a "Crosby is a whiny little B****" shirt near the glass. I never understood why someone would hate someone enough, to wear clothing with the hated players name on it, but I guess that's just me.




"You can't beat us!" clap-clap-clapclapclap

Right. You take the circus on 2/20. We'll take (so far) your home/season opener (meh) and the demoralizing, potentially (hopefully!) season-killer last night.

Hells yeah, there's much for the Pens to work on. My personal fan rule of "not too high, not too low" aside, I've had a blast all day today.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby jimreb on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:41 pm

Steve wrote:
pens2005 wrote:
joe icepick wrote:To be honest I didn't hear Crosby sucks chants last night, seemed like they were in "shock and awe" mode.


James Neal took the attention away from him.


I heard some chants early - but the crowd seemed quiet to me, even when they went up 4-1. I also saw some kid wearing a "Crosby is a whiny little B****" shirt near the glass. I never understood why someone would hate someone enough, to wear clothing with the hated players name on it, but I guess that's just me.


Was there last night, there were a few chants but pretty quiet and didn't last long. There was an unusual number of Pens fans last night. I would say about 3 times more than normal.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pressure=9Pa on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:57 pm

jimreb wrote:
Steve wrote:
pens2005 wrote:
joe icepick wrote:To be honest I didn't hear Crosby sucks chants last night, seemed like they were in "shock and awe" mode.


James Neal took the attention away from him.


I heard some chants early - but the crowd seemed quiet to me, even when they went up 4-1. I also saw some kid wearing a "Crosby is a whiny little B****" shirt near the glass. I never understood why someone would hate someone enough, to wear clothing with the hated players name on it, but I guess that's just me.


Was there last night, there were a few chants but pretty quiet and didn't last long. There was an unusual number of Pens fans last night. I would say about 3 times more than normal.


Was the last sentence designed to avoid a double-winder question? Well played.
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pressure=9Pa on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:02 pm

Steve wrote:
Shakes wrote:Via The Score:

Image

I think this is an example of the elusive "leadership" that guys like Richards and Giroux have and Sid is hoping to emulate. :wink:

Sid. Never. Stops.


This is honestly one of the coolest things I've seen Sid do on the ice. I've never seen another player use that end of the stick to play the puck, at least successfully. Also funny, when he does it, he totally fakes out the French Hick and Kunitz, who were following the puck the other way.

That entire sequence, he outworks three flyers and wins the puck, never using his stick blade haha.


I don't know what you guys are cheering about. The video clear shows Sid diving to try to draw another penalty. However, the NHL refs are sick of his antics by now and don't let him get away with this anymore. Then he illegally throws his stick at the puck, knowing that Bettman will fire anyone who calls that on him. The stick happens to bounce back to him. Then he gets up and shows his lack of a physcial game as the Flyers beat him up on the boards and expose him for the fraud that he is. Fortunately for the Pens, they get yet another bounce and the Penguins control the puck.

Sincerely,

All Flyer Fans
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Froggy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:06 pm

i remember noting that sequence in chat with something like "holy crap... sid just controlled the puck on the boards without a stick against 3 flyers"

best total player today by a SIGNIFICANT margin
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Re: Game 24 vs Philly - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Guinness on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:16 pm

Henry Hank wrote:
Guinness wrote:They started the season very good on the penalty kill and goals against, and have been better - barring the 1st period last night - in that regard again lately. It's probably true that the tendency is still there, but I think it's also true that it's inaccurate to say it's been "40+ games", as though it's been an uninterrupted journey to suck.


Well, here are the numbers.

March 15 - April 7, 2012: 14 games, 48 goals against, 3.43 goals against per game. 35/44 (79.5%) PK
April 11 - April 22: 6 games, 30 goals against, 5.00 goals against per game. 11/23 (47.8%) PK :face:

January 19 - February 17: 16 games, 38 goals against, 2.38 goals against per game. 52/63 (82.5%) PK
February 20 - March 7: 8 games, 33 goals against, 4.13 goals against per game. 22/30 (73.3%) PK

44 games, 149 goals against, 3.39 goals against per game, 120/160 (75%) PK

They were doing a fairly good job up until the previous Flyers game but that's still a minority stretch. I thought they played pretty sloppy hockey to start the season even if they weren't giving up four or more goals routinely. The thing is, they played a lot of weak offensive teams early on but have been facing tougher offenses lately - and that will continue the rest of this month by the way. The numbers are certainly skewed both ways because of that. But if you're looking at the big picture, since Sid came back and this circus began, they've been giving up way too many goals and the PK has been trash basically the entire time. But you look at those numbers and it's clear it's not just the PK causing them to give up a lot of goals. Even if they had been killing penalties at a 90% rate over this stretch of 44 games, they would still be giving up 2.84 goals a game.

Simply put, I need to see them playing responsible hockey and keeping the puck out of their net for a pretty extended stretch before I have any faith in this team. Now until the playoffs would be a good time to start. We're at the halfway point. How they finish will show which stretch is the fluke. It could be that these last eight are just a bad stretch. If we didn't have those 20 to close last season, I might buy into that.


Thanks. Those numbers bear out my impression. Not only were they not giving up 4 goals per game, they weren't giving up 3 goals per game. It's your impression that, even though the GAA was under 3 during that stretch, they were still playing sloppy. I personally thought the PK was very good during that stretch, and that team D was an obvious focus. Granted, since then they've been considerably looser, barring the recent stretch (outside of last night's 1st period), but again it goes to show that the team-slash-organization is more than capable of playing tight hockey.

I think a person is going to see what they want to see, to a considerable extent. It's not outside this teams ability to play tight hockey, as they've shown over the course of the past calendar year. Coupled with the flexibility Shero has this season, I think it's immensely premature to "stick a fork in 'em".
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