Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby DudeMan2766 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:43 pm

jimreb wrote:I think people on here seriously undervalue the talents of one Kris Letang.


No one undervalues his talent. its whether or not he's putting his talents together in a Norris trophy winning fashion. I'm sorry but right now I jjust dont see it.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby AlexPKeaton on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:44 pm

I hope he doesn't as his salary demands will likely price him out of Pittsburgh.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:51 pm

Why would we want Letang to win the Norris? That would just add another million or two to his annual salary. You don't want your ufa defensemen to win a norris before he signs his next contract, you want him to win 5 after he signs his long-term contract.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby jimreb on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:53 pm

DudeMan2766 wrote:
jimreb wrote:I think people on here seriously undervalue the talents of one Kris Letang.


No one undervalues his talent. its whether or not he's putting his talents together in a Norris trophy winning fashion. I'm sorry but right now I jjust dont see it.


I think there's 29 other GM's who will gladly take him off our hands.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby meow on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:57 pm

jimreb wrote:
DudeMan2766 wrote:
jimreb wrote:I think people on here seriously undervalue the talents of one Kris Letang.


No one undervalues his talent. its whether or not he's putting his talents together in a Norris trophy winning fashion. I'm sorry but right now I jjust dont see it.


I think there's 29 other GM's who will gladly take him off our hands.

That's not what DudeMan is saying. Not to put words in his mouth, but Letang's inconsistency does not scream best NHL defenseman to me.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby jimreb on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:01 pm

meow wrote:
jimreb wrote:
DudeMan2766 wrote:
jimreb wrote:I think people on here seriously undervalue the talents of one Kris Letang.


No one undervalues his talent. its whether or not he's putting his talents together in a Norris trophy winning fashion. I'm sorry but right now I jjust dont see it.


I think there's 29 other GM's who will gladly take him off our hands.

That's not what DudeMan is saying. Not to put words in his mouth, but Letang's inconsistency does not scream best NHL defenseman to me.


I guess I just don't see what you guys are seeing with inconsistency, sure he has some issues with his decision making especially with getting his shot off during the PP(though every player has some warts). There have been worse players defensively who have won the Norris, Letang's offensive performance this year is just as good if not better than Karlsson last year and that's why I think he's a legitimate contender for the Norris.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby mikey287 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:14 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:Why would we want Letang to win the Norris? That would just add another million or two to his annual salary. You don't want your ufa defensemen to win a norris before he signs his next contract, you want him to win 5 after he signs his long-term contract.


So, if Letang finishes, say, 2nd for the Norris, we can get him for $6 million per year...if he wins it, $8 million? Seems pretty unlikely that there would be a tangible difference between winning it and not winning it...the fact that he's in the discussion is enough...
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby Matthew Monstar on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:41 pm

Hey, if Erik Karlsson can win the Norris, Letang should win the Norris just based on the point totals.

Karlsson certainly wasn't playing lock down defense. I mean, yes he's constantly involved in the play, but he's small, easy target to smash (if you can catch him). Well Letang not only has the speed Karlsson has and offensive instincts, but has meanness, he's physical....albeit not always smart.


The Norris has changed over time in my opinion. I use to think differently of it, now it's just to whomever puts up points as a defenseman. :pop:
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby mikey287 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:00 pm

Yeah, it's certainly different now. But honestly, as much as we want a defensive defenseman award or it to rank higher in the thought process...do we really? Think about it.

The Norris Trophy, like most awards, is voted on by the media. The same media that contains Eddie Olczyk, Paul Steigerwald, the zany Bob Errey, Jack Edwards, maybe this jerk
Spoiler:


And all the other people we complain about on a daily basis (minus the good ones: guys on TSN (McKenzie, Ferraro, Gord, Cuthbert), Pierre McGuire (who people don't like it, but is the most knowledgeable guy out there), Doc, Andy Brickley, and so on, they'll just get out-numbered by local beat writers that don't have a clue).

It's not like the old 6 or 12 team-league where you see every player all the time. Ignoring this season, how is the Ducks beat writer for the Orange County Register going to understand who was good defensively all year long? There's no official stats for it, it's not as easily detectable as a scoring play, it takes knowledge of the game to realize who is doing good and who is doing not so good, basically...it's tough.

I mean, I spend a stupid amount of time watching the game and analyzing it and trying to understand it better and if you ask me who the best 5 guys are defensively in the league, I'd really need some time to think and then the next day, if you asked me again, I'd need more time to think and I wouldn't come up with the same 5 guys I don't think...maybe I overthink it, but it's hard.

My point is two-fold: A) It's not really that easy B) The people that are voting for it, you don't like or trust

It's baffling to me that we don't have more awards voted on by coaches and managers...it's a shame really.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby tfrizz on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:02 pm

mikey287 wrote:Yeah, it's certainly different now. But honestly, as much as we want a defensive defenseman award or it to rank higher in the thought process...do we really? Think about it.

The Norris Trophy, like most awards, is voted on by the media. The same media that contains Eddie Olczyk, Paul Steigerwald, the zany Bob Errey, Jack Edwards, maybe this jerk
Spoiler:


And all the other people we complain about on a daily basis (minus the good ones: guys on TSN (McKenzie, Ferraro, Gord, Cuthbert), Pierre McGuire (who people don't like it, but is the most knowledgeable guy out there), Doc, Andy Brickley, and so on, they'll just get out-numbered by local beat writers that don't have a clue).

It's not like the old 6 or 12 team-league where you see every player all the time. Ignoring this season, how is the Ducks beat writer for the Orange County Register going to understand who was good defensively all year long? There's no official stats for it, it's not as easily detectable as a scoring play, it takes knowledge of the game to realize who is doing good and who is doing not so good, basically...it's tough.

I mean, I spend a stupid amount of time watching the game and analyzing it and trying to understand it better and if you ask me who the best 5 guys are defensively in the league, I'd really need some time to think and then the next day, if you asked me again, I'd need more time to think and I wouldn't come up with the same 5 guys I don't think...maybe I overthink it, but it's hard.

My point is two-fold: A) It's not really that easy B) The people that are voting for it, you don't like or trust

It's baffling to me that we don't have more awards voted on by coaches and managers...it's a shame really.


Agreed with your comment on Pierre. He's a very knowledgeable guy, it's just too bad he's so annoying that nobody can stand to listen to him.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby owtahear on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:20 pm

Penspal wrote:If Mike Green and Erik Karlsson can win, then why can't Kris Letang? I understand what defence has historically meant, but these players redefine the position.

- 27 pts in 24 games, leads all defenceman in scoring by NINE points
- plus 11 (tied for 5th best)
- avgs over 26 mins a game (6th most)
- only 8 penalty minutes (for a supposed hothead, he's keeping his cool)
- While not a tall player, he's strong as an Ox and has crushed players this year.
- skates like the wind and has erased chances due to his speed

He's been very consistent while having various D partners all year. Whether he wins or not, he's very worthy of Norris consideration


He is also making at least 1 or 2 highlight reel passes a game right now.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby Pavel Bure on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:21 pm

tfrizz wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Yeah, it's certainly different now. But honestly, as much as we want a defensive defenseman award or it to rank higher in the thought process...do we really? Think about it.

The Norris Trophy, like most awards, is voted on by the media. The same media that contains Eddie Olczyk, Paul Steigerwald, the zany Bob Errey, Jack Edwards, maybe this jerk
Spoiler:


And all the other people we complain about on a daily basis (minus the good ones: guys on TSN (McKenzie, Ferraro, Gord, Cuthbert), Pierre McGuire (who people don't like it, but is the most knowledgeable guy out there), Doc, Andy Brickley, and so on, they'll just get out-numbered by local beat writers that don't have a clue).

It's not like the old 6 or 12 team-league where you see every player all the time. Ignoring this season, how is the Ducks beat writer for the Orange County Register going to understand who was good defensively all year long? There's no official stats for it, it's not as easily detectable as a scoring play, it takes knowledge of the game to realize who is doing good and who is doing not so good, basically...it's tough.

I mean, I spend a stupid amount of time watching the game and analyzing it and trying to understand it better and if you ask me who the best 5 guys are defensively in the league, I'd really need some time to think and then the next day, if you asked me again, I'd need more time to think and I wouldn't come up with the same 5 guys I don't think...maybe I overthink it, but it's hard.

My point is two-fold: A) It's not really that easy B) The people that are voting for it, you don't like or trust

It's baffling to me that we don't have more awards voted on by coaches and managers...it's a shame really.


Agreed with your comment on Pierre. He's a very knowledgeable guy, it's just too bad he's so annoying that nobody can stand to listen to him.

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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby DudeMan2766 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:23 pm

That clip still gives me twice the heevies, and thrice the jeevies to this day.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby penmyst on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:03 pm

Letang IS a middling level "defense"man.

This isn't to be taken as a thought that he *can't* play great D. He can, when he puts his mind to it. His strength, speed, and skill are the best of the Pens' D, and upper echelon of the league. More than any individual Pen D, he is capable of singlehandedly separating a guy from the puck, winning battles deep in his own zone, using his speed/skating to backcheck a guy from the offensive zone if he has to.

He doesn't do it all that much. What he does do is use those talents for rushes up ice, and pinching offensively.

His mindset is offense first, defense second. Which is fine. But that's why he is not a good defensive player. Norris candidates should be guys who play defense first, offense when they can.

Letang makes too many defensive liabilities as a result of his trying to always push and create offense. It is what it is at this point. And that's not a bad thing. But it certainly is not a Norris candidate thing.

Maybe the NHL could just change it to be the NHL Gold Glove award, and we'll treat it like MLB does by giving a defensive award to the guys with the best offense.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby mikey287 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:58 pm

penmyst wrote:Letang IS a middling level "defense"man.


Maybe it would be easier to understand if you supplied some other names that are also on this level...just so I know where you're coming from.

penmyst wrote:He doesn't do it all that much. What he does do is use those talents for rushes up ice, and pinching offensively.


You don't feel he's coached to do so? Granted, I know it's natural with him, but when you're an offensive team, you need a #1 d-man that is an offensive catalyst. I don't see the coaching staff pulling on the reigns...

penmyst wrote:Norris candidates should be guys who play defense first, offense when they can.


"The James Norris Memorial Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's top 'defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position'"

The award itself does not say that.

penmyst wrote:Letang makes too many defensive liabilities as a result of his trying to always push and create offense. It is what it is at this point. And that's not a bad thing. But it certainly is not a Norris candidate thing.


Who are the Norris candidates in your eyes then, just so I/we can understand where you're coming from?
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby Pavel Bure on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:17 pm

This again really seems like a case of us as fans having it so good people have to try and complain so they can see themselves as "smart fans" and not the "sheep" that just drink the kool-aid. Letang is a top defense-man in this league and a Norris candidate. It can't really be argued that he shouldn't be in the conversation without going out on a limb and making wild claims that can't really be backed up by anything tangible.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:32 pm

Considering its a function of points+defender=Norris... yeah, probably.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby jimreb on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:34 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:This again really seems like a case of us as fans having it so good people have to try and complain so they can see themselves as "smart fans" and not the "sheep" that just drink the kool-aid. Letang is a top defense-man in this league and a Norris candidate. It can't really be argued that he shouldn't be in the conversation without going out on a limb and making wild claims that can't really be backed up by anything tangible.


This
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby knives of ice on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:49 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:I hope he doesn't as his salary demands will likely price him out of Pittsburgh.



i'll be stunned if the pens manage to resign Letang. he can definitely get 8 million per year somewhere else and he won't get that here. can definitely see a staal situation playing out.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby IMFC on Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:15 am

1) When I think of the Norris, I think Lidstrom - responsible, skilled, good decision maker, puts up points. To me Tanger is skilled, puts up points, not solid as he's kind of a loose canon. But I love the guy.

2) Weber + Suter = 0 Norris Trophies. I can't remember . . . how much did that keep their contracts down?
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:55 am

So we are comparing Letang, a player people are worrying will get overpaid to Weber and Suter, players who got overpaid. What is the argument?
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby IMFC on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:19 am

Idiot40fans wrote:So we are comparing Letang, a player people are worrying will get overpaid to Weber and Suter, players who got overpaid. What is the argument?

Wow, I really have to spell that out. The argument is that not winning the Norris, in and of itself, doesn't equal a contract discount. A couple posts above stated they hoped he wouldn't win it because that would price him out. I gave 2 observations where that was not the case. 2 recent examples of guys that did not win the Norris and still got mega contracts.

Did not win Norris.
Still got paid. A lot.

Iif you think that either one got a discout on their contract just 'cause Karlson won the Norris, i'd love to see your projected numbers.

In the cases of Suter and Weber
If (not x), Then (not y)
(x=Norris, y=contract value)
Did not hold.

I am providing evidence that the equation above does not hold true enough to root against Letang winning the Norris. That in fact it is illogical to root against him.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:23 am

You are showing that a player can get overpaid without winning a trophy, not that a trophy doesn't increase their value. You are proving things that have nothing to do with this thread and that are blatantly obvious to anyone who has casually followed a professional sport for a season.
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby IMFC on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:28 am

Idoit40fans wrote:You are showing that a player can get overpaid without winning a trophy, not that a trophy doesn't increase their value. You are proving things that have nothing to do with this thread and that are blatantly obvious to anyone who has casually followed a professional sport for a season.


And you have any cases to the contrary?

Waiting on examples of Norris winners who are overpaid strictly because they won . . . Waiting . . . .
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Re: Media-types have Letang as front-runner for Norris

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:30 am

IMFC wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:You are showing that a player can get overpaid without winning a trophy, not that a trophy doesn't increase their value. You are proving things that have nothing to do with this thread and that are blatantly obvious to anyone who has casually followed a professional sport for a season.


And you have any cases to the contrary?

Waiting on examples of Norris winners who are overpaid strictly because they won . . . Waiting . . . .

I... uh... I think... wait what? :face:
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