HOF Talent, not a HOF career. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It's not even about rings, he could have gotten 4 rings, he'd still be pretty far out.
Fair enough. I don't claim to a be history guy (admire those who are). Besides significantly more playoff success, what's the difference between him and say, Nieuwendyk, for example. Was Kovy just that much worse in other aspects of the game?
Serious question. I guess he is AlMo, but I think of him as a way better all-around player. Maybe just biased.
Nieuwendyk isn't a good example because he doesn't belong in the HHOF either. He just career-totaled his way in, which is garbage.
That said, Nieuwy has the better resume probably. At least he finished top 10 in goals five times and has a not-clear-cut Conn Smythe. But it's not by a whole hell of a lot, to be honest. Nieuwy is a very weak HHOFer. Even though he was a huge part of 2 Cup winners and a Cup finalist. Plus, he was on a third championship team late in his career.
He basically bowled over the voters with era-biased stat totals...not the worst thing that's ever happened or the worst player in the Hall, but he's a weak choice and shouldn't be used as a benchmark for modern players. Otherwise, someone like Milan Hejduk is well on his way...
In fact, Hejduk is a decent comparable for Kovalev. If you take one, you probably have to take both. I'll take neither...easily.
mikey, hard to disagree with you here. Just look at the difference between Nieuwendyk and who he is tied with in scoring - Mike Bossy. Bossy racked up the same stat-line in 400 fewer games. That's the difference between fringe and obvious. There are examples like this across hockey history. PStastny/Housley is one, Housley in 500 more games to get within 7 points of Stastny. Stastny is in, Housley is not.
Housley, of course, spent most of his career at "defense", but yeah. Using career points without context doesn't do anyone any good ever. I'd take Frank Nighbor's 237 career points over everyone mentioned in this thread without the slightest hesitation.
mikey287 wrote:Housley, of course, spent most of his career at "defense", but yeah. Using career points without context doesn't do anyone any good ever. I'd take Frank Nighbor's 237 career points over everyone mentioned in this thread without the slightest hesitation.
I just pray that Housley never gets in...
true - I didn't take into account position, just looked for another case of similar point totals with vastly different games played.
I haven't cross-referenced the career lists with HHOF membership in a number of years. Nighbor, Lionel Conocher, Howie Morenz, Joe Malone, and others of that era belong in their own right, and cannot be compared to the modern game.
*side question - anyone know when the secondary assist became part of NHL scoring? I found this link for rules changes over the years - imagine forward passing not allowed, and no wonder totals were low: http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/hockey/nh ... rules.html
mikey287 wrote:Housley, of course, spent most of his career at "defense", but yeah. Using career points without context doesn't do anyone any good ever. I'd take Frank Nighbor's 237 career points over everyone mentioned in this thread without the slightest hesitation.
I just pray that Housley never gets in...
true - I didn't take into account position, just looked for another case of similar point totals with vastly different games played.
I haven't cross-referenced the career lists with HHOF membership in a number of years. Nighbor, Lionel Conocher, Howie Morenz, Joe Malone, and others of that era belong in their own right, and cannot be compared to the modern game.
*side question - anyone know when the secondary assist became part of NHL scoring? I found this link for rules changes over the years - imagine forward passing not allowed, and no wonder totals were low: http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/hockey/nh ... rules.html
I can't answer a specific date when secondary assists were added. But I will say that I've seen old box scores that listed three assists on a play in some spots. It was entirely at the ref's discretion. If he felt three players made impactful passes on the play, he had the option to award a third assist. An obvious rarity, I doubt I could even produce an example on command, but anyway...
The natural time for secondary assists to become a major part of the scene is when the forward pass was fully liberalized in 1929. It allowed for breakout passes, as opposed to the center carrying it all the way down the rink and passing or scoring.
In 1928, there was an average 0.5 assists per goal...by 1933, there were 1.21 assists per goal, by 1939 it was 1.55 assists per goal. (For reference, today it is an outrageous 1.72 per goal).
Alexei scores on Patrick Roy~ 1st game of Mario's ownership. Rob Brown and Brooks both wore 44. Watching these old videos, is a nice stroll down memory lane.
Anybody remember that Gatorade commercial during Mario's comeback where they interview players and the players are saying how good it is for "him" to be back (it turns out that "him" is a trainer or a guy that brings Gatorade or something) and Kovy just shajes his head and acts speechless. I got a kick out of that commercial and can't find it anywhere.
Unrelated but can't find the Angus McDonald's commercial where these guys from Boston say "Settle down, Francis" (2007-8 era??)
KOVY is my second favorite Penguin ever, I'm not even kidding. I don't think that he will make the HOF due to questions about his work ethic and unwillingness to play on the defensive side of the puck that dogged him from his rookie year onwards. No matter what he is a legend. I wish his second tenure as a Penguin went better but if the team wasn't so beset by injuries that playoff maybe he would have made a greater mark here if he had linemates like 71 or saw power play time with 87. I also don't think that he fit into DB's style of play and conversely DB didn't care for his style of play.
Lemieux will always be my favorite Pittsburgh Penguin, for obvious reasons. Crosby is my second favorite, for his tenacity; but Kovalev is my 3rd favorite, and if anyone ever forced me to say which one I'd rather watch, I'd have a hard time saying which of those three. Dude could stickhandle in a phone booth!
Kovy definitely ranks as one of my favourite Pens. He was a tenacious defender at times as well, especially while coached by Kevin Constantine.
What impressed me most about him was his skating. He could turn and move laterally like no other--while maintaining full control of the puck of course.
As far as his HOF credentials, his 94 cup with the Rangers, for which he was a contributor, international play (gold, bronze in Olympics) and general recognition as one of the most skilled ever could take him far.
In the last few months I've started really reading about Herb Brooks. It started with a Project I did last semester and I've just kept going. When He coached the Pens in 2000, He loved having Kovalev. He was ecstatic about all the tools he brought to the table with the Pens. Also remember in that time in the inevitable possibility that Jagr or Mario would be hurt how much those guys stepped up?
