Struggling for Offense?

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby DocEmrick on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:40 am

Time to rebuild
DocEmrick
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,331
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:33 pm
Location: SETEC Astronomy

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:45 am

Are you concerned with scoring dysfunction? Showing symptoms of SD? Our pill will provide you with the boost you need to push that biscuit between the wickets. Call a doctor if you score more than 4 goals a game.

This post proudly brought to you by Pfizer Inc
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 56,533
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby RxBandit66 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:53 am

The Bennett/Despres thing cuts two ways. On one hand, being on a great team with a legit chance to win a Cup drastically may reduce their role and ice time. On the other hand, the experience gained from a long playoff run will be invaluable. This team is on a 13 game winning streak, and while Despres, Bortuzzo, and BB have played a role in some of that, their time is in the future moreso than now. And who knows when an injury could happen? I'm not upset that veterans are getting more ice time right now, because this is a right now kind of team.
Last edited by RxBandit66 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
RxBandit66
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,819
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Kittanning

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby shmenguin on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:53 am

Gaucho wrote:Despres and Bennett seem to respond well to being coached and challenged. Tangradi and Strait did not, it seems. I know which kind of player I'd rather have on my team.


strait looked good in his limited time here. there just wasn't any room for him. i wouldn't include him in this premise at all.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,593
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby NashvilleCat on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:08 am

What this team's offense needs is a top-line center who could win a scoring title, or a Hart trophy, or maybe even a Conn Smythe trophy. Scour the IR and make it happen GMRS!
NashvilleCat
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,072
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: 4.5 hours south of Josh Harrison's hometown.

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby Kovy27 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:19 am

MarioLives wrote:Besides the wonderful thought out post from Pavel, thanks for the response. My point, and only my point, was this was an obvious game where scoring was tough, you are missing Malkin, and Bennett has shown some playmaking ability at the NHL level. So why were his minutes so low? That was it. Just a question.


Probably because he was playing on the 4th line.
Kovy27
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 24,589
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Break Down the Walls of Kovy27

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby shmenguin on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:25 am

adams also gets extra shifts late in the game when we have a lead and we're basically in PK mode. that alone will cause about a minute discrepancy between him and BB's time.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,593
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby sil on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:25 am

I still would've rather kept Strait than Bortuzzo...but that's me. Never been a big fan of Bort. If he could stay on his feet for a whole shift, I might feel differently.
sil
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,879
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:05 pm
Location: the Juice Case manufacturing plant

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby NeddieVedder on Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:19 pm

I'm paraphrasing from memory but Bylsma said in the playoffs they were going to use their 4th line like Philadelphia's last year or like we did in '09 -- 80% of its shifts would be with Malkin or Crosby centering it. So it seems like they're going to use Bennett as a secret weapon/offensive spark (Tyler Seguin in '11?). I guess given the choice, I'd take Bennett as 3rd line RW and Kennedy as 4th for Occasional Bonus Offense, but I'm not going to be startled and dismayed when the team doesn't use Bennett in the top 6 and Despres in the top 4, especially not at the beginning of the playoffs. They're going to insulate them like they did with Kennedy and Letang when they were rookies in 2008.
NeddieVedder
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:35 am

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby Nizzy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:37 pm

sil wrote:I still would've rather kept Strait than Bortuzzo...but that's me. Never been a big fan of Bort. If he could stay on his feet for a whole shift, I might feel differently.


Defenseman don't fully develop until 27.
Nizzy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,598
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:30 pm
Location: Steel City

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:38 pm

Then sitting Despres shouldn't hurt his development.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,091
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby Desiato on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:48 pm

Scoring is down because:
- Pens are playing a *much* more conservative style
- Malkin is injured and the Pens have a top-heavy offense
- Entire league is tightening up

Putting rookies in situations to succeed is how confidence is built, not giving them too much responsibility too early in a high pressure environment (cup contender).
Desiato
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,195
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 2:28 pm

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:04 pm

I know this isn't used much, but why don't we double-shift Sutter instead of Crosby/Malkin with the 4th line? He is defensively responsible, has decent wheels, and could probably handle the extra ~5 minutes of ice-time...

I guess it wouldn't work when you're trying to roll your 4th line out there after the 3rd line, but I'd rather the 4th line play as limited a role as possible anyway.
DontToewsMeBro
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,302
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:20 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:I know this isn't used much, but why don't we double-shift Sutter instead of Crosby/Malkin with the 4th line? He is defensively responsible, has decent wheels, and could probably handle the extra ~5 minutes of ice-time...

I guess it wouldn't work when you're trying to roll your 4th line out there after the 3rd line, but I'd rather the 4th line play as limited a role as possible anyway.


Wouldn't the point of double-shifting be to get your best player(s) out there again?

Not saying Sutter isn't good, but if I have my choice of double-shifting Crosby, Malkin, and Sutter, I'm not even considering Sutter.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,091
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby slappybrown on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:58 pm

Nizzy wrote:
sil wrote:I still would've rather kept Strait than Bortuzzo...but that's me. Never been a big fan of Bort. If he could stay on his feet for a whole shift, I might feel differently.


Defenseman don't fully develop until 27.
Spoiler:
Image

Image
slappybrown
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,008
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:08 am
Location: Noted Board Henchman

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby brwi on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:46 pm

shmenguin wrote:adams also gets extra shifts late in the game when we have a lead and we're basically in PK mode. that alone will cause about a minute discrepancy between him and BB's time.


Adams has also been playing pretty well during this streak. He looked over the hill and shot as a player earlier, but he's upped his game in the last month.

HCDB has certain expectations for players and handles them differently than other HC's at times. When he first took over, he benched Letang for 3-4 games and basically made him change his game. Letang before DB was a pretty good d-man in his own end in even his rookie season and DB wanted him to transform into what he is today with a lot less emphasis on his own end and generating offense instead.

To say that DB isn't real enamored with rookies out there is probably an understatement and his development of some guys makes you wonder a lot, but he's there to win the Cup more than develop talent at this point. You can argue about whether this is the right approach in the next 2-3 years, but GMRS and HCDB seem to be on the same page about the kind of player they want and the expectations. That sort of means that draft picks can be disposable and DB gets the kind of guys he wants for right NOW.

I'm not 100% convinced that in a couple of years this team may have some real issues from the above approach, but the org is going all-in to win this year and I sure can't complain about that right now either.
brwi
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,129
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:36 am

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:52 pm

I guess it would be to keep Sid and Geno fresh rather than wasting their energy on a shift with Tanner Glass and whomever else is out there...
DontToewsMeBro
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,302
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: Struggling for Offense?

Postby Henry Hank on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:04 pm

brwi wrote:
shmenguin wrote:adams also gets extra shifts late in the game when we have a lead and we're basically in PK mode. that alone will cause about a minute discrepancy between him and BB's time.


Adams has also been playing pretty well during this streak. He looked over the hill and shot as a player earlier, but he's upped his game in the last month.

HCDB has certain expectations for players and handles them differently than other HC's at times. When he first took over, he benched Letang for 3-4 games and basically made him change his game. Letang before DB was a pretty good d-man in his own end in even his rookie season and DB wanted him to transform into what he is today with a lot less emphasis on his own end and generating offense instead.

To say that DB isn't real enamored with rookies out there is probably an understatement and his development of some guys makes you wonder a lot, but he's there to win the Cup more than develop talent at this point. You can argue about whether this is the right approach in the next 2-3 years, but GMRS and HCDB seem to be on the same page about the kind of player they want and the expectations. That sort of means that draft picks can be disposable and DB gets the kind of guys he wants for right NOW.

I'm not 100% convinced that in a couple of years this team may have some real issues from the above approach, but the org is going all-in to win this year and I sure can't complain about that right now either.


I'm really not sure the approach is much different than it was before Bylsma. Probably the biggest change is that the talent and depth of the team has increased and so have expectations. It's not as easy for guys to work their way into opportunities. But you look at most of the players that made their way into the NHL with Therrien. Guys like Armstrong, Staal, Talbot, Kennedy all started as fourth liners and worked their way up. Letang was on the third pairing his rookie year and got healthy scratched a few times in the playoffs.

It all really starts with a giant misconception where the thinking goes that unless a rookie is immediately put in a prominent role he's not getting a real opportunity and is being set up to fail. That thinking is right along with the idea that if a guy is playing a lesser role and/or occasionally being scratched, he might as well just be in the AHL. People got so upset over the way Tangradi was handled, for example, but he wasn't given treatment that was any different from any other rookie in recent years, pre-Bylsma or during his tenure. Bennett is a perfect example to show the difference between a real talent and a bust. Bennett comes in at 21, puts up some points, does the things that an NHL player does. He's already got more points in ~20 games as Tangradi has in over 60. I think as we go into the future, we'll see both Bennett and Despres develop as good NHL players.

The Pens simply haven't had many good talents come up the system recently. They traded their 2007 first round pick (Esposito) who was a bust anyway. They traded their 2008 pick and essentially sat out that draft. Most of the guys coming up have been lower round picks or undrafted free agents. Goligoski is one success story under Bylsma and no surprise he was a legitimate talent and higher draft pick. Bennett and Despres represent some higher pedigree talent coming up and they look like they belong. Basically, what I'm trying to say is I don't think there's been any deficiency in Bylsma developing players. The talent coming up the system has been pretty poor since he's been coach, until now.
Henry Hank
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,480
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Previous

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Scate, the riddler and 7 guests


e-mail