Fleury

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Re: Fleury

Postby sil on Wed May 15, 2013 8:40 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
owtahear wrote:Everyone likes Marc Andre Fleury as a person. He is the anti Tom Barrasso. However......the dirty little secret is....these playoff meltdowns aren't new for him. I went back to his JR career and in Willkes Barre Scranton, and MAF only had ONE season where is GAA and Save Percentage is higher in the post season than it is in the regular season. And some of those differences are significant. For most goalies, because the post season is usually much tighter played, their save percentage and GAA both improve. MAF's does the opposite. He is a head case. He is a talent, but outside of that brilliance in Game's 6 and 7 of the 2009 SCF, he melts under pressure because he overplays everything.

The only thing that could save him is a sports psychologist. But these playoff performances are not nothing new unfortunately for MAF.

So. I'm just "spitballing" here but, is it possible that MAF might actually benefit by getting older and a tad slower (response to your valid observation that he overplays everything)?

Interesting thought.


Quick...someone break his legs...that'll slow him down!
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Re: Fleury

Postby PAPLine on Wed May 15, 2013 9:28 am

With the way Vokoun is playing, does anyone think Fleury will see the ice again?
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Re: Fleury

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed May 15, 2013 9:31 am

There is a lot of hockey left. If we don't see Fleury again, its probably a good thing.
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Re: Fleury

Postby count2infinity on Wed May 15, 2013 9:31 am

PAPLine wrote:With the way Vokoun is playing, does anyone think Fleury will see the ice again?


Vokoun will have a much shorter leash than Fleury will. One bad game, and I can see Fleury being put back in.
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Re: Fleury

Postby Jopaz on Wed May 15, 2013 9:43 am

This might have been mentioned previously, but it was interesting to see in person last night. Notice how many shots that are going wide of the net and Vokoun just lets them go. He has great awareness of his location and the angles. Fluery often tries to save everything that is even close to the net. This leads to bad rebounds or getting out of position. Some of his "acrobatic" saves are on shots that might be going wide anyway.
There is just a calmness with Vokoun that probably affects the whole team. Fluery acts like his hair is on fire anytime the play gets close to him. Fluery is a veteran now but still acts like a rookie.
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Re: Fleury

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed May 15, 2013 9:45 am

To that point, I just started laughing when the shot went wide off the boards(it kicked out in front and bounced over someone's stick), and Vokoun got back squarely in front of the net presumably avoiding it coming off the boards and hitting him.
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Re: Fleury

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 15, 2013 9:51 am

count2infinity wrote:
PAPLine wrote:With the way Vokoun is playing, does anyone think Fleury will see the ice again?


Vokoun will have a much shorter leash than Fleury will. One bad game, and I can see Fleury being put back in.


Hard to say. If Bylsma was actually considering going with Vokoun from the very start, then I think Fleury's season is over.

I also think a buy out this summer will effectively end his NHL career. I can't imagine anyone is going to be too interested in a nearly 30-year-old goalie with a recent string of playoff meltdowns.
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Re: Fleury

Postby Malkamaniac on Wed May 15, 2013 9:52 am

Vokoun earned himself on bad game to be honest. He just settles the game down so much better than MAF.
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Re: Fleury

Postby The Snapshot on Wed May 15, 2013 9:52 am

Jopaz wrote:This might have been mentioned previously, but it was interesting to see in person last night. Notice how many shots that are going wide of the net and Vokoun just lets them go. He has great awareness of his location and the angles. Fluery often tries to save everything that is even close to the net. This leads to bad rebounds or getting out of position. Some of his "acrobatic" saves are on shots that might be going wide anyway.
There is just a calmness with Vokoun that probably affects the whole team. Fluery acts like his hair is on fire anytime the play gets close to him. Fluery is a veteran now but still acts like a rookie.


This. Those "bad bounce" goals, like the HUGE goal Matt Martin scored in Game 2, are a result of Fleury already having gone into the splits for a shot that was 2 feet wide. If he was simply up and hugging his post, there is no way Martin scores on his little chip from the corner of the net. You can say it was a tough bounce, and that Martin was able to get slightly inside Letang there, but there is no way he could have gotten across the face of the net on Letang or Fleury - so the only way he scores involves Fleury over-reacting and going down on a shot nowhere near the net.

One of Fleury's biggest issue when he is going badly is that he tries to save everything and never trusts his angle.
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Re: Fleury

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed May 15, 2013 9:52 am

tfrizz wrote:
count2infinity wrote:
PAPLine wrote:With the way Vokoun is playing, does anyone think Fleury will see the ice again?


Vokoun will have a much shorter leash than Fleury will. One bad game, and I can see Fleury being put back in.


Hard to say. If Bylsma was actually considering going with Vokoun from the very start, then I think Fleury's season is over.


I am working under the assumption that Vokoun has 1 game at a time of leeway.
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Re: Fleury

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 15, 2013 9:54 am

Tico Rick wrote:
littlemoonboot wrote:You know it's bad when people are predicting the series outcome depending on whether or not Flower's playing and opposing fans hope he's the one in goal and are disappointed when it's Vokoun (who isn't just your ordinary backup.) Of course the players are going to have Flower's back in the face of public scrutiny and rightfully know they shoulder some of the blame, but I wonder how they really feel when meltdowns like Game 4 happen. I will never forget that game ever as a Pens fan, because I think that's the night the scales tipped for how I feel about Fleury and started finding myself agreeing with his critics. And that's hard when you have a lot of good memories with him but the bad ones start to outnumber the good. You still have to love him as a player and a teammate, but in the end you have to seriously question where he's at as a franchise goalie and whether or not the writing started appearing on the wall when they brought in Vokoun


This pretty much sums up my feelings as well.

Seconded. Was holding out hope that everything that's happened the past three playoffs would be wiped away this year and he'd put it together -- and by that I mean he'd be competent. Game 4 was it for me.
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Re: Fleury

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 15, 2013 9:56 am

The Snapshot wrote:
Jopaz wrote:This might have been mentioned previously, but it was interesting to see in person last night. Notice how many shots that are going wide of the net and Vokoun just lets them go. He has great awareness of his location and the angles. Fluery often tries to save everything that is even close to the net. This leads to bad rebounds or getting out of position. Some of his "acrobatic" saves are on shots that might be going wide anyway.
There is just a calmness with Vokoun that probably affects the whole team. Fluery acts like his hair is on fire anytime the play gets close to him. Fluery is a veteran now but still acts like a rookie.


This. Those "bad bounce" goals, like the HUGE goal Matt Martin scored in Game 2, are a result of Fleury already having gone into the splits for a shot that was 2 feet wide. If he was simply up and hugging his post, there is no way Martin scores on his little chip from the corner of the net. You can say it was a tough bounce, and that Martin was able to get slightly inside Letang there, but there is no way he could have gotten across the face of the net on Letang or Fleury - so the only way he scores involves Fleury over-reacting and going down on a shot nowhere near the net.

One of Fleury's biggest issue when he is going badly is that he tries to save everything and never trusts his angle.


Hard to hug the post when he's 2 feet outside his crease. Like they pointed out on TSN, you could see the lack of confidence in the way he was over-challenging shots.
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Re: Fleury

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 15, 2013 9:56 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
owtahear wrote:Everyone likes Marc Andre Fleury as a person. He is the anti Tom Barrasso. However......the dirty little secret is....these playoff meltdowns aren't new for him. I went back to his JR career and in Willkes Barre Scranton, and MAF only had ONE season where is GAA and Save Percentage is higher in the post season than it is in the regular season. And some of those differences are significant. For most goalies, because the post season is usually much tighter played, their save percentage and GAA both improve. MAF's does the opposite. He is a head case. He is a talent, but outside of that brilliance in Game's 6 and 7 of the 2009 SCF, he melts under pressure because he overplays everything.

The only thing that could save him is a sports psychologist. But these playoff performances are not nothing new unfortunately for MAF.

So. I'm just "spitballing" here but, is it possible that MAF might actually benefit by getting older and a tad slower (response to your valid observation that he overplays everything)?

Interesting thought.

Creative thought, but I think the issue is he lacks the fundamentals 8 years into his career. That won't change with time IMO (though I think tfrizz believes someone other than Meloche should get a shot at fixing this issue). The flip side is his athleticism hurts him at times by pushing him out of position, but it also helps him recover -- particularly post to post -- when he is out of position/technically unsound. It covers some of his flaws. As he gets older, he won't be able to do that anymore.
Last edited by slappybrown on Wed May 15, 2013 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleury

Postby The Snapshot on Wed May 15, 2013 9:56 am

Malkamaniac wrote:Vokoun earned himself on bad game to be honest. He just settles the game down so much better than MAF.


He struggled in the entire 1st period last night, and I am sure the Sens were on the bench saying "get pucks at him, he's shakey) but he calmed himself and played very well from the early 2nd on. Fleury's MO in the last few playoffs would have been to give up another softie and cut the margin - giving energy to the opponent.

Vokoun never gave up that next goal, and made some pretty good saves along the way. I agree that at this point I need to see a trend that tells me he is going bad. One bad game doesn't mean anything to me.

Honestly, with Fleury in the 1st round I thought Bylsma did the right thing in terms of timing. He was not good in the OT win, but he gave him another game and saw that he was just a mess.
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Re: Fleury

Postby Malkamaniac on Wed May 15, 2013 10:01 am

The Snapshot wrote:
Malkamaniac wrote:Vokoun earned himself on bad game to be honest. He just settles the game down so much better than MAF.


He struggled in the entire 1st period last night, and I am sure the Sens were on the bench saying "get pucks at him, he's shakey) but he calmed himself and played very well from the early 2nd on. Fleury's MO in the last few playoffs would have been to give up another softie and cut the margin - giving energy to the opponent.

Vokoun never gave up that next goal, and made some pretty good saves along the way. I agree that at this point I need to see a trend that tells me he is going bad. One bad game doesn't mean anything to me.

Honestly, with Fleury in the 1st round I thought Bylsma did the right thing in terms of timing. He was not good in the OT win, but he gave him another game and saw that he was just a mess.


Agreed, and I'm a huge MAF supporter. He just doesn't have it, and maybe being benched will help him long term.
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Re: Fleury

Postby owtahear on Wed May 15, 2013 10:05 am

Not to pile on MAF, but it is hard to ignore facts.

His playoff save percentage last year was 50 points BELOW the next guy. 50 POINTS! He was dead last in the playoffs of any goalie who started a game! And in fact if you added those 50 points to the next guy's save percentage (Bryzgalov), it would have placed him in the top 4. That is how far below the line MAF was last year. That is not all on the defense. A $5 million a year "franchise" goalie has to occasionally make the save.

This year, MAF is 16th amongst goalies who started at least 2 games, and every goalie around him, their team is out of the playoffs. #1? Tomas Vokoun at 0.963. And mind you MAF has a shut out in this year's playoffs. MAF is in Nabakoville.

I am not meaning to pick on MAF, but outside of Pittsburgh, he is regarded as a mediocre at best goalie. In 2011 playoffs, again he was 16th overall! This also includes one shut out. Notice a trend here?

In 2010, MAF was.....yep, 15th overall. Again, he had one shut out, but still his Save percentage was below almost every other starting goalie.

In 2009, the year they hoisted the cup....he was 10th overall. He was clutch in some big games however. And this is indicative of two things, 1) obviously the Pens play a more wide open game but 2) all MAF has to do is basically be average for this team. That's it. But he hasn't been since the cup winning year.

It maybe time to stop considering him a "franchise goalie". I don't know what the future is, but this team needs basically average to good goaltending. It does not need great. And Fleury has been below to much below average in the post season over the past few years.
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Re: Fleury

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 15, 2013 10:06 am

slappybrown wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
owtahear wrote:Everyone likes Marc Andre Fleury as a person. He is the anti Tom Barrasso. However......the dirty little secret is....these playoff meltdowns aren't new for him. I went back to his JR career and in Willkes Barre Scranton, and MAF only had ONE season where is GAA and Save Percentage is higher in the post season than it is in the regular season. And some of those differences are significant. For most goalies, because the post season is usually much tighter played, their save percentage and GAA both improve. MAF's does the opposite. He is a head case. He is a talent, but outside of that brilliance in Game's 6 and 7 of the 2009 SCF, he melts under pressure because he overplays everything.

The only thing that could save him is a sports psychologist. But these playoff performances are not nothing new unfortunately for MAF.

So. I'm just "spitballing" here but, is it possible that MAF might actually benefit by getting older and a tad slower (response to your valid observation that he overplays everything)?

Interesting thought.

Creative thought, but I think the issue is he lacks the fundamentals 8 years into his career. That won't change with time IMO (though I think tfrizz believes someone other than Meloche should get a shot at fixing this issue). The flip side is his athleticism hurts him at times by pushing him out of position, but it also helps him recover -- particularly post to post -- when he is out of position/technically unsound. It covers some of his flaws. As he gets older, he won't be able to do that anymore.


It's never too late to learn fundamentals, but there's got to be someone there to teach it. That said, it's something you've really got to have in your game coming out of junior and, in Fleury's defense, there hasn't really been any fundamentally sound goalies come out of Cape Breton.
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Re: Fleury

Postby AlexPKeaton on Wed May 15, 2013 10:10 am

owtahear wrote:Not to pile on MAF, but it is hard to ignore facts.

His playoff save percentage last year was 50 points BELOW the next guy. 50 POINTS! He was dead last in the playoffs of any goalie who started a game! And in fact if you added those 50 points to the next guy's save percentage (Bryzgalov), it would have placed him in the top 4. That is how far below the line MAF was last year. That is not all on the defense. A $5 million a year "franchise" goalie has to occasionally make the save.

This year, MAF is 16th amongst goalies who started at least 2 games, and every goalie around him, their team is out of the playoffs. #1? Tomas Vokoun at 0.963. And mind you MAF has a shut out in this year's playoffs. MAF is in Nabakoville.

I am not meaning to pick on MAF, but outside of Pittsburgh, he is regarded as a mediocre at best goalie. In 2011 playoffs, again he was 16th overall! This also includes one shut out. Notice a trend here?

In 2010, MAF was.....yep, 15th overall. Again, he had one shut out, but still his Save percentage was below almost every other starting goalie.

In 2009, the year they hoisted the cup....he was 10th overall. He was clutch in some big games however. And this is indicative of two things, 1) obviously the Pens play a more wide open game but 2) all MAF has to do is basically be average for this team. That's it. But he hasn't been since the cup winning year.

It maybe time to stop considering him a "franchise goalie". I don't know what the future is, but this team needs basically average to good goaltending. It does not need great. And Fleury has been below to much below average in the post season over the past few years.


Lol outside of Pittsburgh every other NHL fan lols at Fleury. I really think the only reason people still support Fleury is that he was really the first Pen drafted that "turned things around". He has been with the team even in the dark pre-Crosby days. And he is a great guy. But man if you just evaluate his play, as other fans do without the extra stuff, he is turrible.
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Re: Fleury

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed May 15, 2013 10:13 am

I don't know, even around the league I hear people giving him more slack. Last week several times on NHL radio I hear people saying stuff like "Usually once a goalie wins a cup, they're given some slack even when bad because they've won the cup. Fleury hasn't really gotten that."

Really? He hasn't? Wasn't that cup 4 years ago with 3 years plus half a series of very pedestrian playoffs in between?
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Re: Fleury

Postby count2infinity on Wed May 15, 2013 10:20 am

tfrizz wrote:I also think a buy out this summer will effectively end his NHL career.


I agree to disagree.
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Re: Fleury

Postby Crankshaft on Wed May 15, 2013 10:22 am

At least half the league would be interested in Fleury as a starting goaltender AND they would take on his current salary to have him there.
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Re: Fleury

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 15, 2013 10:23 am

Idoit40fans wrote:I don't know, even around the league I hear people giving him more slack. Last week several times on NHL radio I hear people saying stuff like "Usually once a goalie wins a cup, they're given some slack even when bad because they've won the cup. Fleury hasn't really gotten that."

Really? He hasn't? Wasn't that cup 4 years ago with 3 years plus half a series of very pedestrian playoffs in between?


Did he get that slack because he won the Cup? In his 3 playoff games with the Pens, Brent Johnson put up a stunning 4.94 GAA and .708 sv%. I'm more inclined to believe Fleury got the slack he did because there was no other choice.
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Re: Fleury

Postby SoupOrSam on Wed May 15, 2013 10:26 am

Meloche has got to be fired at season's end regardless of cup or no cup. YOU HAVE TO. You have to see if MAFs issues can be coached. I just cannot get rid of that raw talent without first seeing if a new coach can actually coach him. I realize the mental crap cannot be coached, but the mental stuff is a domino. They should've at least rid themselves of Meloche after the Philly series last year. Problem is.... FOM.
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Re: Fleury

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 15, 2013 10:27 am

SoupOrSam wrote:Meloche has got to be fired at season's end regardless of cup or no cup. YOU HAVE TO. You have to see if MAFs issues can be coached. I just cannot get rid of that raw talent without first seeing if a new coach can actually coach him. I realize the mental crap cannot be coached, but the mental stuff is a domino. They should've at least rid themselves of Meloche after the Philly series last year. Problem is.... FOM.


As much as I'd like to see it, I really doubt Meloche is going anywhere. He's too close with Mario to lose his job. I'm definitely on board with what you're saying though. The mental mistake become a very minor issue if you can coach Fleury into sound fundamentals like Conklin did in 2008.

95% of goaltending today is positoning. You don't have to make big, highlight reel saves... you just have to be in the right spot and let the puck hit you. I swear Vokoun doesn't see at least 2/3 of the stops he makes - he's just in the right spot to do it.
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Re: Fleury

Postby murphydump55 on Wed May 15, 2013 10:30 am

Crankshaft wrote:At least half the league would be interested in Fleury as a starting goaltender AND they would take on his current salary to have him there.


Uh, no.

The way he has these meltdowns consistently year after year, why would anyone trust him? You want a goaltender that comes to play in the playoffs, and 4 post seasons in a row, Fleury has been a complete headcase.

If the Pens bought him out, I could see either A) a struggling franchise looking to rebuild, taking a chance on him or B) a decent team signing him cheap as a backup with the opportunity to win the starting job.

As a GM, I'd have a serious problem going out and wanting this guy as my team's starter. It's not like it was a couple seasons, it's been 4 post seasons of horrible numbers, inconsistent regular seasons, tons of soft goals, tons of first shot goals.

I hope we go in a different direction next year, but I'm doubting we do....unless of course the different directions is a new goaltender coach.
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