Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

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Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon May 06, 2013 1:57 pm

With an optional practice today according to the tweats - I can only assume the Penguins either can not, or just don't have time to make any adjustment to this strategy. The quesiton I pose to hockey people mostly, is how easy it would be for the Penguins to counter what the Islanders are doing considering their entire system it seems has been built up on getting the puck deep in this method.

Sure we could ask the forwards to come back closer to the D-men, but this in essense takes away that stretch pass chip as it pulls the forwards on the penguins side of red line. I assume if the forwards come back closer to the penguins end, they will have to work on 2 or 3 passes to gain the red line and dump, and by then the islanders will have had time to expect the dump and beat the forechecker to the puck with enough time to move it before he can set his position and force the play.

So - is it possible the Penguins have no intention of changing their system here simply because it would be too disruptive to their game at this juncture?

Personally I'd trade off some of the forecheck/turnover offense that losing the stretch/dump play provides in order to prevent the neutral zone turnovers and transition game of the islanders.

That sound about right or am I way off here?
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon May 06, 2013 1:59 pm

Actually faceoff factor talks about this in their game 3 telestrator post.
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby Desiato on Mon May 06, 2013 2:37 pm

The Pens can change their style effectively. We saw it during the outstanding defensive portion of the win streak.

The Pens played a conservative style with patient low-risk breakouts. As a result, they turned the puck over less, iced the puck less, and were able to establish their forecheck more frequently with better setups. This is what I think of as the contingency system.

The system we've seen in the playoffs so far is the 'nobody can beat us when we play our game' system. That's the one we saw much of last year and the start of this season. By virtue of its name, the only way the Pens can lose playing this system is when they "don't execute". By 'don't execute', they mean, for example, completing low percentage passes at a low rate. There's lots of opportunity to not execute as the breakout is based around these low percentage passes.

So yeah, the Pens have shown us they can change; but will they? Yeah, I think so. There's too much at stake for them not to. It's good that they're taking some lumps now against the Islanders instead of a more capable team.
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon May 06, 2013 2:44 pm

Someone said something like this, but it puzzles me as well. The Pens played playoff hockey in the last few weeks of the season when it didn't matter and then abandoned it when the playoffs arrived and it did matter.

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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby pens_CT on Mon May 06, 2013 3:29 pm

So the prevailing opinion is Bylsma's system sucks and the opposition has figured it out. The opposition apparently figured it out in last year's playoff debacle with the Flyers, then forgot how to defeat it during the regular season this year when we won 36 out of 48 games, and now has remembered again come playoff time. :scared:

Maybe its the executon of the system by the players that's the issue and not the system itself. Nah that couldn't be, everyone knows that Bylsma is an idiot and is the root cause of the problem. :face:
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby Bathgate on Mon May 06, 2013 3:55 pm

What are the odds that the Pens can quickly and successfully tweak their system and lines and improve their execution so that the whole is equal to the sum of its parts, i.e., they play up to their vast talent-level potential and overwhelm the Islanders? Not very high I would think. Clearly the Isles are playing up to their potential and likely overachieving. To win the series, the Pens are probably going to have to win 2 more games like Sunday, outscoring while being outplayed. However, even if they successfully eke by this way, will anybody believe they can go all the way to a Cup?
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby pcm on Mon May 06, 2013 4:04 pm

pens_CT wrote:So the prevailing opinion is Bylsma's system sucks and the opposition has figured it out. The opposition apparently figured it out in last year's playoff debacle with the Flyers, then forgot how to defeat it during the regular season this year when we won 36 out of 48 games, and now has remembered again come playoff time. :scared:

Maybe its the executon of the system by the players that's the issue and not the system itself. Nah that couldn't be, everyone knows that Bylsma is an idiot and is the root cause of the problem. :face:


Generally during the reg season you don't see teams game plan and practice exclusively to match their opponent for that night. The payoff just isn't worth it when you've got a day or 2 at most to prepare. A few adjustments here and there, sure. But when you're hunkering down for a playoff series, you've got lots of tape to watch and come up with a strategy to defeat the team you're going to be playing every other night for the next 2 weeks. At least, that's what most coaches do...
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby Fire0nice228 on Mon May 06, 2013 4:07 pm

bingo...
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby guiner on Mon May 06, 2013 4:07 pm

I've long supported HCDB and think he is a terrific coach. But its not lost on me how the Mario era Pens had to make huge adjustments (down 1-3 vs the Caps for example and going with leftwing lock) and could play ANY WAY they needed to win. This "get to our game" seems to have become a form of stubborness that simply doesn't recognize or respect the capability of other teams to counter our strategy.

I think we'll get past the Islanders despite their efforts due to our overwelming skill level. If you didn't watch the games and looked at the stats, you'd think we are DESTROYING them. Their goalie is dead last in % and GAA, the PP/PKs are completely opposite (almost 50%to10%), we actually hold a 1.667 GF/GA ration.

Of course, watching the games are another story. But I'm worried that we'll get past the Isles and unless we get favorable matchups that allow us to play our game, the Pens post season will be a disappointment.
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby Bathgate on Mon May 06, 2013 4:14 pm

guiner wrote:I've long supported HCDB and think he is a terrific coach. But its not lost on me how the Mario era Pens had to make huge adjustments (down 1-3 vs the Caps for example and going with leftwing lock) and could play ANY WAY they needed to win. This "get to our game" seems to have become a form of stubborness that simply doesn't recognize or respect the capability of other teams to counter our strategy.

I think we'll get past the Islanders despite their efforts due to our overwelming skill level. If you didn't watch the games and looked at the stats, you'd think we are DESTROYING them. Their goalie is dead last in % and GAA, the PP/PKs are completely opposite (almost 50%to10%), we actually hold a 1.667 GF/GA ration.

Of course, watching the games are another story. But I'm worried that we'll get past the Isles and unless we get favorable matchups that allow us to play our game, the Pens post season will be a disappointment.


This means we are relying on Nabakov continuing to stink.
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon May 06, 2013 5:46 pm

I think too, part of the issue is the islanders specifically looking for these passes, but also - because they are not there, the penguins are beginning to panic in their own end. Blind dumps, fanned pass attempts.. I mean they all play a part.

Sure if they made every perfect decision. Skated when they needed to skate, passed when they needed to pass, made every perfect play - they would easily "get to their game".

But when a team meets them in the playoffs and works specifically to take away the one thing the pens were comfortable with - the team has to adjust a little bit. Everyone knows what the penguins do, and it's pretty tough to stop. I think you need speed - which the islanders have, and you need desire - which comes pretty easy during the playoffs.
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby pens_CT on Mon May 06, 2013 6:14 pm

pcm wrote:
pens_CT wrote:So the prevailing opinion is Bylsma's system sucks and the opposition has figured it out. The opposition apparently figured it out in last year's playoff debacle with the Flyers, then forgot how to defeat it during the regular season this year when we won 36 out of 48 games, and now has remembered again come playoff time. :scared:

Maybe its the executon of the system by the players that's the issue and not the system itself. Nah that couldn't be, everyone knows that Bylsma is an idiot and is the root cause of the problem. :face:


Generally during the reg season you don't see teams game plan and practice exclusively to match their opponent for that night. The payoff just isn't worth it when you've got a day or 2 at most to prepare. A few adjustments here and there, sure. But when you're hunkering down for a playoff series, you've got lots of tape to watch and come up with a strategy to defeat the team you're going to be playing every other night for the next 2 weeks. At least, that's what most coaches do...

If Bylsma's system is so basic and predictable as most people here believe, it wouldn't take much tape review or practice to combat it. I go back to how the players are executing it, rather than the system itself.
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby marek on Mon May 06, 2013 7:23 pm

pens_CT wrote:
pcm wrote:
pens_CT wrote:So the prevailing opinion is Bylsma's system sucks and the opposition has figured it out. The opposition apparently figured it out in last year's playoff debacle with the Flyers, then forgot how to defeat it during the regular season this year when we won 36 out of 48 games, and now has remembered again come playoff time. :scared:

Maybe its the executon of the system by the players that's the issue and not the system itself. Nah that couldn't be, everyone knows that Bylsma is an idiot and is the root cause of the problem. :face:


Generally during the reg season you don't see teams game plan and practice exclusively to match their opponent for that night. The payoff just isn't worth it when you've got a day or 2 at most to prepare. A few adjustments here and there, sure. But when you're hunkering down for a playoff series, you've got lots of tape to watch and come up with a strategy to defeat the team you're going to be playing every other night for the next 2 weeks. At least, that's what most coaches do...

If Bylsma's system is so basic and predictable as most people here believe, it wouldn't take much tape review or practice to combat it. I go back to how the players are executing it, rather than the system itself.


Well, the recent stats kinda prove just how SIMPLE it is. Iginla, morrow, jokinen and Murray have 40% of the teams goals since they came on board... If it was tough to pick up you'd think that that number would be way smaller.
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Re: Stretch Pass / Chip In - Can they change?

Postby penmyst on Mon May 06, 2013 7:59 pm

pens_CT wrote:So the prevailing opinion is Bylsma's system sucks and the opposition has figured it out. The opposition apparently figured it out in last year's playoff debacle with the Flyers, then forgot how to defeat it during the regular season this year when we won 36 out of 48 games, and now has remembered again come playoff time. :scared:

Maybe its the executon of the system by the players that's the issue and not the system itself. Nah that couldn't be, everyone knows that Bylsma is an idiot and is the root cause of the problem. :face:


You are misinterpreting the point.

EVERY system has strengths and weaknesses.

Think of it like this in a simpler analogy regarding a different sport: boxing. If a boxer decides to take away any shots to the head, he can simply keep his hands up all match. Now, the strength of this strategy is that he will make it nearly impossible to hit his head with a straight on attack. Where is the weakness? The body. If you are busy keeping your hands head high, then you aren't busy keeping your body covered. In this instance, if the opponent decides to take those free body shots you are giving him, this guy's strategy is going to completely fail.

What's a boxer to do? You have to be fluid. This means constantly adjusting strategies, switching them up, doing A now to set up B later. Looking to force your opponent into obvious situations (such as baiting a certain punch) so that you can easily defend it and then counter. It's a constant ebb and flow.

Hockey "systems" have to remain fluid as well. If your opponent starts throwing up a block to what you WANT to do, then he HAS TO BE LEAVING something else open. If he is hugging the NZ boards on the side your puck-carrying D is coming? He has taken away the stretch pass... but he is leaving you plenty of room to skate right up towards the red line center, or pass to your D buddy that could be doing the same.

The job of coaches is to prepare the players for recognizing, in real-time on the ice, what opponents are doing, and which appropriate actions to take against it. This means even if you PREFER Strategy A... if the opponent is stifling it.... you have to go to Strategy B or C. This can and should keep up if a team is sticking fully with blocking Strategy A (as in my boxing metaphor above, if the guy keeps protecting his face) then you keep on hitting the body, IF THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES.


What should make Pens fans concerned, is that the Pens seem to have a lot of arrogance about their style of play. They seem to want to only "get to their game" irregardless of what the other guys are doing out there. That *might* work during the regular season, when coaches aren't going to spend a lot of time breaking down your system and drilling their players on how to break it, or you are going up against sub .500 teams where it doesn't matter if they know what's coming they can't stop it.

In the playoffs, coaches WILL thwart your strategies. Players on the other team ARE good enough (even if they are an 8 seed) to execute/implement and succeed on thwarting your strategies. And a certain HC of the Pens better start taking lessons.
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