Vokoun will be the game changer.

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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby DesertPenguin on Wed May 08, 2013 2:01 pm

nocera wrote:Pens Cup hopes begin and end with Fleury. Vokoun might get you a game, but definitely not to the championship.



This. Vokoun needs to get us this series. MAF starts game 1 of round 2. No sooner.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby AlexPKeaton on Wed May 08, 2013 2:03 pm

Fleury is done in Pittsburgh. 3 playoff failures in a row, each consequently worse. He is toast, I can't even see anyone willing to give up much for him in a trade. It is a shame, because he is a great guy. But, results...
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby SolidSnake on Wed May 08, 2013 2:03 pm

If TV wins the next 2 for the Pens, then you ride TV until he collapses. To me that's a kick to the groinal area to TV if he wins the next 2 games then sit him for a mentally fragile Fleury
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby murphydump55 on Wed May 08, 2013 2:05 pm

tfrizz wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:If Vokoun does play and wins, he starts game 6. The earliest I see Fleury getting another chance between the pipes would be Game 1 of Round 2, if we're lucky enough to get there.


Why would you? If Vokoun is giving you the opportunity to win, and DOES win, then why would you go back to the headcase?

If Vokoun plays and wins this series for us, you ride him until he falters, in a BIG way.


Because Fleury, if he gets his head on straight, is a better goalie than Vokoun at this stage of his career. Vokoun can likely get them through the second round, but in the end they're going to need Fleury to be on his game to win the cup. The best way to do that is to put him in no pressure situations - like game 1 of the second round - and with a very short leash.

If you look over their numbers this season, there are a two teams that Fleury put up significantly better numbers than Vokoun against (MTL, WSH), two that Vokoun put up significantly better numbers than Fleury against (BOS, NYI), and two that they both put up excellent numbers against (NYR, OTT). The only remaining playoff team is TOR who Fleury played every game against this season and put up poor numbers.

So if you come up against MTL or WSH, Fleury is the better choice; against BOS, NYI, or TOR, Vokoun is the better choice; and against NYR or OTT, it's a toss up so you go with Fleury on a short leash and have Vokoun in case he falters.


So going by your first line, you're basically willing to drop another game just to "see" if Fleury has his head on straight? And willing to bench a guy that has saved the series for you?

I guess we'll agree to disagree. Fleury has faltered for the last 4 years in the playoffs and if Vokoun is getting the job done, then you ride him. Nobody thought Niemi would be able to win a Cup, but he did. You certainly do NOT go back to a headcase if the backup has some in and done the job and saved the series for you.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby murphydump55 on Wed May 08, 2013 2:06 pm

SolidSnake wrote:If TV wins the next 2 for the Pens, then you ride TV until he collapses. To me that's a kick to the groinal area to TV if he wins the next 2 games then sit him for a mentally fragile Fleury


Bingo
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 2:11 pm

DesertPenguin wrote:
nocera wrote:Pens Cup hopes begin and end with Fleury. Vokoun might get you a game, but definitely not to the championship.



This. Vokoun needs to get us this series. MAF starts game 1 of round 2. No sooner.

Why? Vokoun slightly outperformed MAF in the regular season. If there were no names on the backs of the jersey, and you looked at their performance, Vokoun's was slightly better this season.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby Bathgate on Wed May 08, 2013 2:13 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:Fleury is done in Pittsburgh. 3 playoff failures in a row, each consequently worse. He is toast, I can't even see anyone willing to give up much for him in a trade. It is a shame, because he is a great guy. But, results...


It's gonna have to be a buyout. Fleury can then sign with the Flyers and Bryzgalov can sign with the Pens.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby nocera on Wed May 08, 2013 2:14 pm

slappybrown wrote:
DesertPenguin wrote:
nocera wrote:Pens Cup hopes begin and end with Fleury. Vokoun might get you a game, but definitely not to the championship.



This. Vokoun needs to get us this series. MAF starts game 1 of round 2. No sooner.

Why? Vokoun slightly outperformed MAF in the regular season. If there were no names on the backs of the jersey, and you looked at their performance, Vokoun's was slightly better this season.


Fleury is a better goaltender than Vokoun at this stage of his career. Difference is Fleury can struggle if he gets in his own head. I can't remember specifics but didn't TV have a horrible run of games at some point during the season?
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 2:16 pm

nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
DesertPenguin wrote:
nocera wrote:Pens Cup hopes begin and end with Fleury. Vokoun might get you a game, but definitely not to the championship.



This. Vokoun needs to get us this series. MAF starts game 1 of round 2. No sooner.

Why? Vokoun slightly outperformed MAF in the regular season. If there were no names on the backs of the jersey, and you looked at their performance, Vokoun's was slightly better this season.


Fleury is a better goaltender than Vokoun at this stage of his career. Difference is Fleury can struggle if he gets in his own head. I can't remember specifics but didn't TV have a horrible run of games at some point during the season?

Vokoun has played slightly better than him this season, .919 v. .916. Vokoun also faced over 4 shots more per 60 minutes compared to Fleury. The sample size isn't ideal -- 31 GP for MAF and 17 for TV -- but I'm finding difficult to automatically assume MAF is the better goalie right now.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 2:19 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:If Vokoun does play and wins, he starts game 6. The earliest I see Fleury getting another chance between the pipes would be Game 1 of Round 2, if we're lucky enough to get there.


Why would you? If Vokoun is giving you the opportunity to win, and DOES win, then why would you go back to the headcase?

If Vokoun plays and wins this series for us, you ride him until he falters, in a BIG way.


Because Fleury, if he gets his head on straight, is a better goalie than Vokoun at this stage of his career. Vokoun can likely get them through the second round, but in the end they're going to need Fleury to be on his game to win the cup. The best way to do that is to put him in no pressure situations - like game 1 of the second round - and with a very short leash.

If you look over their numbers this season, there are a two teams that Fleury put up significantly better numbers than Vokoun against (MTL, WSH), two that Vokoun put up significantly better numbers than Fleury against (BOS, NYI), and two that they both put up excellent numbers against (NYR, OTT). The only remaining playoff team is TOR who Fleury played every game against this season and put up poor numbers.

So if you come up against MTL or WSH, Fleury is the better choice; against BOS, NYI, or TOR, Vokoun is the better choice; and against NYR or OTT, it's a toss up so you go with Fleury on a short leash and have Vokoun in case he falters.


So going by your first line, you're basically willing to drop another game just to "see" if Fleury has his head on straight? And willing to bench a guy that has saved the series for you?

I guess we'll agree to disagree. Fleury has faltered for the last 4 years in the playoffs and if Vokoun is getting the job done, then you ride him. Nobody thought Niemi would be able to win a Cup, but he did. You certainly do NOT go back to a headcase if the backup has some in and done the job and saved the series for you.


The longer Fleury sits, the more unusable he's going to be if something happens to Vokoun or if he simply wears out. It's important to remember that Vokoun is 36 years old and there's an inherent risk to that; maybe he can't play because his hip flares up, for instance.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby nocera on Wed May 08, 2013 2:19 pm

slappybrown wrote:
nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
DesertPenguin wrote:
nocera wrote:Pens Cup hopes begin and end with Fleury. Vokoun might get you a game, but definitely not to the championship.



This. Vokoun needs to get us this series. MAF starts game 1 of round 2. No sooner.

Why? Vokoun slightly outperformed MAF in the regular season. If there were no names on the backs of the jersey, and you looked at their performance, Vokoun's was slightly better this season.


Fleury is a better goaltender than Vokoun at this stage of his career. Difference is Fleury can struggle if he gets in his own head. I can't remember specifics but didn't TV have a horrible run of games at some point during the season?

Vokoun has played slightly better than him this season, .919 v. .916. Vokoun also faced over 4 shots more per 60 minutes compared to Fleury. The sample size isn't ideal -- 31 GP for MAF and 17 for TV -- but I'm finding difficult to automatically assume MAF is the better goalie right now.


True. There's also a reason why TV has been a back up over the last few years and Fleury has been the clear starter.

Does anyone remember TV struggling a couple games in a row or am I making that up?
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 2:21 pm

nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
DesertPenguin wrote:This. Vokoun needs to get us this series. MAF starts game 1 of round 2. No sooner.

Why? Vokoun slightly outperformed MAF in the regular season. If there were no names on the backs of the jersey, and you looked at their performance, Vokoun's was slightly better this season.


Fleury is a better goaltender than Vokoun at this stage of his career. Difference is Fleury can struggle if he gets in his own head. I can't remember specifics but didn't TV have a horrible run of games at some point during the season?

Vokoun has played slightly better than him this season, .919 v. .916. Vokoun also faced over 4 shots more per 60 minutes compared to Fleury. The sample size isn't ideal -- 31 GP for MAF and 17 for TV -- but I'm finding difficult to automatically assume MAF is the better goalie right now.


True. There's also a reason why TV has been a back up over the last few years and Fleury has been the clear starter.

Does anyone remember TV struggling a couple games in a row or am I making that up?


He's had a couple of real rough stretches this season.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 2:21 pm

We are really grasping at straws now if the justification for giving Fluery another game in later rounds -- which by the way, presumes we win this series with Vokoun likely being a big reason why -- is that he might get "rusty" and maybe Vokoun's hip would flare up.

IF they are winning, who cares if Fleury is rusty? If Vokoun is healthy and can go and is winning, I don't see why a theoretical hip flare up is reason to put MAF back in.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 2:23 pm

nocera wrote:
True. There's also a reason why TV has been a back up over the last few years and Fleury has been the clear starter.

Does anyone remember TV struggling a couple games in a row or am I making that up?


Fleury's numbers since the Cup win are decidedly mediocre for the most part. His peer group in some seasons was Scott Clemmenson and Johan Hedberg. Also career backups. He's vacillated between average and slightly above average. Its just reality.

EDIT: And his being the clear starter has a lot more to do with (1) what we've invested in him; (2) the 2009 Cup win; and (3) the steady stream of below average backups behind him.
Last edited by slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby nocera on Wed May 08, 2013 2:24 pm

slappybrown wrote:We are really grasping at straws now if the justification for giving Fluery another game in later rounds -- which by the way, presumes we win this series with Vokoun likely being a big reason why -- is that he might get "rusty" and maybe Vokoun's hip would flare up.

IF they are winning, who cares if Fleury is rusty? If Vokoun is healthy and can go and is winning, I don't see why a theoretical hip flare up is reason to put MAF back in.


My reasoning has already been stated in this thread. I'm a firm believer that while Vokoun may get us past NY, it's still Fleury's job and a confident Fleury gives the Pens the best chance for a Cup. Vokoun is a temporary solution.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 2:25 pm

nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:We are really grasping at straws now if the justification for giving Fluery another game in later rounds -- which by the way, presumes we win this series with Vokoun likely being a big reason why -- is that he might get "rusty" and maybe Vokoun's hip would flare up.

IF they are winning, who cares if Fleury is rusty? If Vokoun is healthy and can go and is winning, I don't see why a theoretical hip flare up is reason to put MAF back in.


My reasoning has already been stated in this thread. I'm a firm believer that while Vokoun may get us past NY, it's still Fleury's job and a confident Fleury gives the Pens the best chance for a Cup. Vokoun is a temporary solution.

That's fine. This belief is not backed up by actual performance so far as I can tell. Its faith rather than reason IMO.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby nocera on Wed May 08, 2013 2:29 pm

slappybrown wrote:
nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:We are really grasping at straws now if the justification for giving Fluery another game in later rounds -- which by the way, presumes we win this series with Vokoun likely being a big reason why -- is that he might get "rusty" and maybe Vokoun's hip would flare up.

IF they are winning, who cares if Fleury is rusty? If Vokoun is healthy and can go and is winning, I don't see why a theoretical hip flare up is reason to put MAF back in.


My reasoning has already been stated in this thread. I'm a firm believer that while Vokoun may get us past NY, it's still Fleury's job and a confident Fleury gives the Pens the best chance for a Cup. Vokoun is a temporary solution.

That's fine. This belief is not backed up by actual performance so far as I can tell. Its faith rather than reason IMO.


Well, unfortunately nobody can say what's going to happen in this series and (hopefully) beyond. That's just a gut feeling.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 2:31 pm

nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:We are really grasping at straws now if the justification for giving Fluery another game in later rounds -- which by the way, presumes we win this series with Vokoun likely being a big reason why -- is that he might get "rusty" and maybe Vokoun's hip would flare up.

IF they are winning, who cares if Fleury is rusty? If Vokoun is healthy and can go and is winning, I don't see why a theoretical hip flare up is reason to put MAF back in.


My reasoning has already been stated in this thread. I'm a firm believer that while Vokoun may get us past NY, it's still Fleury's job and a confident Fleury gives the Pens the best chance for a Cup. Vokoun is a temporary solution.

That's fine. This belief is not backed up by actual performance so far as I can tell. Its faith rather than reason IMO.


Well, unfortunately nobody can say what's going to happen in this series and (hopefully) beyond. That's just a gut feeling.

Absolutely. But playing the person who has performed better is usually a no-brainer to me.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby PPenguinsFan66 on Wed May 08, 2013 2:37 pm

Going back and forth between Vokoun and Fleury may not be a bad idea, ride the hot goalie. Worked pretty well for Carolina in 2006 with Gerber and Ward.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby nocera on Wed May 08, 2013 2:39 pm

slappybrown wrote:
nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
nocera wrote:
slappybrown wrote:We are really grasping at straws now if the justification for giving Fluery another game in later rounds -- which by the way, presumes we win this series with Vokoun likely being a big reason why -- is that he might get "rusty" and maybe Vokoun's hip would flare up.

IF they are winning, who cares if Fleury is rusty? If Vokoun is healthy and can go and is winning, I don't see why a theoretical hip flare up is reason to put MAF back in.


My reasoning has already been stated in this thread. I'm a firm believer that while Vokoun may get us past NY, it's still Fleury's job and a confident Fleury gives the Pens the best chance for a Cup. Vokoun is a temporary solution.

That's fine. This belief is not backed up by actual performance so far as I can tell. Its faith rather than reason IMO.


Well, unfortunately nobody can say what's going to happen in this series and (hopefully) beyond. That's just a gut feeling.

Absolutely. But playing the person who has performed better is usually a no-brainer to me.


Yeah. I think we're all in agreement that Vokoun has to play right now.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby MRandall25 on Wed May 08, 2013 2:43 pm

PPenguinsFan66 wrote:Going back and forth between Vokoun and Fleury may not be a bad idea, ride the hot goalie. Worked pretty well for Carolina in 2006 with Gerber and Ward.


Or you get the Vancouver Canucks.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby thepittman on Wed May 08, 2013 2:44 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
PPenguinsFan66 wrote:Going back and forth between Vokoun and Fleury may not be a bad idea, ride the hot goalie. Worked pretty well for Carolina in 2006 with Gerber and Ward.


Or you get the Vancouver Canucks.


That is an entirely different problem
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby MRandall25 on Wed May 08, 2013 2:51 pm

thepittman wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
PPenguinsFan66 wrote:Going back and forth between Vokoun and Fleury may not be a bad idea, ride the hot goalie. Worked pretty well for Carolina in 2006 with Gerber and Ward.


Or you get the Vancouver Canucks.


That is an entirely different problem


Not really.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby SolidSnake on Wed May 08, 2013 2:51 pm

Yea I mean, this is the time you use Vokoun. He is one of the highest paid backups in the league, if not used then you might as well used Thiessen in this shortened season or got another backup cheaper then TV then used some of the cap left that could of brought in another D-man besides Murray
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby Malkamaniac on Wed May 08, 2013 2:57 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
PPenguinsFan66 wrote:Going back and forth between Vokoun and Fleury may not be a bad idea, ride the hot goalie. Worked pretty well for Carolina in 2006 with Gerber and Ward.


Or you get the Vancouver Canucks.


Luckily for the Pens, they're not tied to a ridiculous contract ala Loungo.
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