Vokoun will be the game changer.

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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby columbia on Wed May 08, 2013 4:43 pm

This sequence of events is like a Bathgate fantasy come to life.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby thepittman on Wed May 08, 2013 4:53 pm

He will be a game changer if he can pull this off-

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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 4:58 pm

He will be a game changer if he doesn't score on himself.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 5:22 pm

Rocco wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
Kraftster wrote:
Do you really believe that because of a .03 difference in save percentage? Vokoun looked old and slow in a number of starts from an eye test standpoint. Beyond that, MAF got the nod in most of the "big" games where both goaltenders were healthy, meaning he faced the stiffer competition.

With goaltending being somewhat marginalized/talent being diluted/more parity in net, which I think is the case at this point, the wins category is really the most important one at the end of the day. Playoff wins clearly have not been there for MAF, but the teams in front of him have been quite poor. You could reasonably argue that he's paid at a level where he needs to bring more than crappy peripherals and wins, and you'd probably be correct. Still, I do not know that there are many better options, and I am not comfortable handing the team to Vokoun for the remainder of the playoffs, let alone beyond.


Obviously, its not an enormous difference. But given that he's outperformed him while facing more shots plus Fleury's breakdowns in recent playoffs, and I'm hard pressed to see why MAF is really a better choice. Their historic numbers prior to this season also reflect TV outperforming him.

Wins are without a doubt the worst stat to measure a goalie's performance. Save% is really the one stat that the goalie has the most control over. GAA is next, with wins far removed from a measure of a goalie's performance.


I'd want to look at the quality of opponents before saying Vokoun outplayed MAF. Still though he played well outside of some early season turds and was brought in precisely in case MAF went to hell so Bylsma couldn't hide behind the excuse of the backup being clinically dead.


http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=84 ... l-keymatch

Vokoun played 12 games against playoff teams and 8 against non-playoff teams.

Against playoff teams he went 10-0-0 with a 1.78 GAA and .945 sv%; against non-playoff teams he went 3-4-0 with a 3.56 GAA and .868 sv%.

Of the 6 playoff teams he faced, he excelled against Boston (1.50 GAA, .958 sv%), Ottawa (1.00 GAA, .971 sv%), NY Rangers (1.50 GAA, .952 sv%), and NY Islanders (0.90 GAA, .970 sv%); he struggled against Montreal (4.44 GAA, .882 sv%) and Washington (3.00 GAA, .875 sv%).


http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=84 ... l-keymatch

In comparison, Fleury played 15 games against playoff teams and 18 against non-playoff teams.

Against playoff teams he went 12-3-0 with a 2.40 GAA and .916 sv%; against non-playoff teams he went 11-5-0 with a 2.38 GAA and .916 sv%.

Of the 7 playoff teams he faced, he excelled against Montreal (2.40 GAA, .933 sv%), Washington (1.50 GAA, .944 sv%), Ottawa (1.44 GAA, .951 sv%), and NY Rangers (2.27 GAA, .928 sv%); he struggled against Boston (2.00 GAA, .875 sv%), Toronto (3.24 GAA, .873 sv%), and NY Islanders (3.60 GAA, .882 sv%).



What's interesting is that each goalie either put up very good or very bad numbers against the playoff teams, there was no middle ground. On the bright side, the only overlap between the two is that they both played well against Ottawa and the NY Rangers. They've basically got each others' weaknesses, in terms of opponents, covered with the exception of Toronto, who Vokoun never played. I know Bylsma used historic results to dictate his goalie schedule in the regular season, so would it make sense to use this information to dictate game 1 starters for any given series?

The other strange thing here is that it's counter-intuitive. According to the numbers, Fleury was the steadier goalie this season by posting almost identical numbers against both groups - playoffs and non-playoffs.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 5:28 pm

I don't think you can draw conclusions about how he will fare against a specific team -- eg, TV v. WAS -- when you have one game of sample size.

That said, his performance against playoff teams is astounding, if only 10 games. .945 is ridiculous.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 5:30 pm

slappybrown wrote:Wins are a measure of team performance. Of all the goalie stats, save% is the one least affected by team performance. Team effects are what make evaluating goalies so difficult, but save% isolates this the best -- and in particular, even strength save%.

Hey, what a surprise:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm? ... lTeamSaves

.940 to .927 in favor of Vokoun.


Vokoun was .013 better at even strength but Fleury was .030 better on the PK and .266 better on the PP. So I guess it depends how you want to evaluate it... is the .013 edge Vokoun has at ES equivalent the much larger situational (PP/PK) advantages Fleury had?

I guess that fits their styles though. Fleury's speed and reflexes have always been his biggest strength, and that allowed him to work better on the PK when there is much movement involved. Meanwhile, Vokoun's poise allowed him to be a bit more effective at even strength.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby Rylan on Wed May 08, 2013 5:31 pm

Game 5 tomorrow will be telling. If the Pens win in a lowscoring affair, that should propel them to victory in game 6. If they get crushed again, and squeak out a win the team is in major trouble.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 5:37 pm

slappybrown wrote:I don't think you can draw conclusions about how he will fare against a specific team -- eg, TV v. WAS -- when you have one game of sample size.

That said, his performance against playoff teams is astounding, if only 10 games. .945 is ridiculous.


It's no so much just Vokoun having poor performance against them, but that Fleury excelled against them as well. And I don't mean to say it as in it should dictate the whole thing, maybe just who starts in game 1 (for example).

So, say they get through this round and face Ottawa in the second round. Both goalies have played very well against them. If you go based off the regular season data, combined with the first round, you probably want to start Fleury game 1 because you already don't trust him - better to fall back on a solid Vokoun than to have Vokoun falter and fall back on a shaky Fleury.

As I pointed out before, it should be no surprise that the Islanders have lit Fleury up because they have done it in 3 of his last 4 regular season games against them as well. I posted the numbers somewhere, can't remember where, but in his last 4 regular season starts against the Isles he's 1-3-0 with a GAA right around 4.5 and a sv% around .835. His numbers in the 4 games this series are actually a MAJOR improvement over that.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 5:40 pm

tfrizz wrote:
slappybrown wrote:I don't think you can draw conclusions about how he will fare against a specific team -- eg, TV v. WAS -- when you have one game of sample size.

That said, his performance against playoff teams is astounding, if only 10 games. .945 is ridiculous.


It's no so much just Vokoun having poor performance against them, but that Fleury excelled against them as well. And I don't mean to say it as in it should dictate the whole thing, maybe just who starts in game 1 (for example).

As I pointed out before, it should be no surprise that the Islanders have lit Fleury up because they have done it in 3 of his last 4 regular season games against them as well. I posted the numbers somewhere, can't remember where, but in his last 4 regular season starts against the Isles he's 1-3-0 with a GAA right around 4.5 and a sv% around .835. His numbers in the 4 games this series are actually a MAJOR improvement over that.

TV was the .945 no? Did you mean excellent rather than poor in your first sentence?
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 6:07 pm

slappybrown wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
slappybrown wrote:I don't think you can draw conclusions about how he will fare against a specific team -- eg, TV v. WAS -- when you have one game of sample size.

That said, his performance against playoff teams is astounding, if only 10 games. .945 is ridiculous.


It's no so much just Vokoun having poor performance against them, but that Fleury excelled against them as well. And I don't mean to say it as in it should dictate the whole thing, maybe just who starts in game 1 (for example).

As I pointed out before, it should be no surprise that the Islanders have lit Fleury up because they have done it in 3 of his last 4 regular season games against them as well. I posted the numbers somewhere, can't remember where, but in his last 4 regular season starts against the Isles he's 1-3-0 with a GAA right around 4.5 and a sv% around .835. His numbers in the 4 games this series are actually a MAJOR improvement over that.

TV was the .945 no? Did you mean excellent rather than poor in your first sentence?


I mean on an individual level. Vokoun struggled against Montreal and Washington, and Fleury excelled against them. The opposite is also true - Vokoun excellent against the teams Fleury struggled with (Boston and NY Islanders).

As it is now, the Pens will likely face Ottawa if they can knock off the Islanders. Both goalies played very well against the Sens this season, so the options would be go with Vokoun and if he struggled you fall back on a very shaky Fleury or you start a very shaky Fleury and if (or when) he struggled you go to a more solid Vokoun.

Basically, if the Pens get through to face Ottawa I would go to Fleury and say "you get 1 game to win your job back" based purely on what we see of Fleury's regular season numbers (poor against NYI, good against OTT). If he does it, then go with him but on an extremely short leash. If he doesn't, then it's only 1 game and the job is Vokoun's the rest of the way unless he plays himself out of it. I'm not sure if you can take that kind of risk anywhere but early in the second round though, so it's take a chance in game 1 or ride Vokoun to the end and hope he doesn't wear out or get hurt.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby Rocco on Wed May 08, 2013 6:16 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Rocco wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
Kraftster wrote:
Do you really believe that because of a .03 difference in save percentage? Vokoun looked old and slow in a number of starts from an eye test standpoint. Beyond that, MAF got the nod in most of the "big" games where both goaltenders were healthy, meaning he faced the stiffer competition.

With goaltending being somewhat marginalized/talent being diluted/more parity in net, which I think is the case at this point, the wins category is really the most important one at the end of the day. Playoff wins clearly have not been there for MAF, but the teams in front of him have been quite poor. You could reasonably argue that he's paid at a level where he needs to bring more than crappy peripherals and wins, and you'd probably be correct. Still, I do not know that there are many better options, and I am not comfortable handing the team to Vokoun for the remainder of the playoffs, let alone beyond.


Obviously, its not an enormous difference. But given that he's outperformed him while facing more shots plus Fleury's breakdowns in recent playoffs, and I'm hard pressed to see why MAF is really a better choice. Their historic numbers prior to this season also reflect TV outperforming him.

Wins are without a doubt the worst stat to measure a goalie's performance. Save% is really the one stat that the goalie has the most control over. GAA is next, with wins far removed from a measure of a goalie's performance.


I'd want to look at the quality of opponents before saying Vokoun outplayed MAF. Still though he played well outside of some early season turds and was brought in precisely in case MAF went to hell so Bylsma couldn't hide behind the excuse of the backup being clinically dead.


http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=84 ... l-keymatch

Vokoun played 12 games against playoff teams and 8 against non-playoff teams.

Against playoff teams he went 10-0-0 with a 1.78 GAA and .945 sv%; against non-playoff teams he went 3-4-0 with a 3.56 GAA and .868 sv%.

Of the 6 playoff teams he faced, he excelled against Boston (1.50 GAA, .958 sv%), Ottawa (1.00 GAA, .971 sv%), NY Rangers (1.50 GAA, .952 sv%), and NY Islanders (0.90 GAA, .970 sv%); he struggled against Montreal (4.44 GAA, .882 sv%) and Washington (3.00 GAA, .875 sv%).


http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=84 ... l-keymatch

In comparison, Fleury played 15 games against playoff teams and 18 against non-playoff teams.

Against playoff teams he went 12-3-0 with a 2.40 GAA and .916 sv%; against non-playoff teams he went 11-5-0 with a 2.38 GAA and .916 sv%.

Of the 7 playoff teams he faced, he excelled against Montreal (2.40 GAA, .933 sv%), Washington (1.50 GAA, .944 sv%), Ottawa (1.44 GAA, .951 sv%), and NY Rangers (2.27 GAA, .928 sv%); he struggled against Boston (2.00 GAA, .875 sv%), Toronto (3.24 GAA, .873 sv%), and NY Islanders (3.60 GAA, .882 sv%).



What's interesting is that each goalie either put up very good or very bad numbers against the playoff teams, there was no middle ground. On the bright side, the only overlap between the two is that they both played well against Ottawa and the NY Rangers. They've basically got each others' weaknesses, in terms of opponents, covered with the exception of Toronto, who Vokoun never played. I know Bylsma used historic results to dictate his goalie schedule in the regular season, so would it make sense to use this information to dictate game 1 starters for any given series?

The other strange thing here is that it's counter-intuitive. According to the numbers, Fleury was the steadier goalie this season by posting almost identical numbers against both groups - playoffs and non-playoffs.


Thanks. The numbers aren't big enough to draw any significant conclusions, but Vokoun's numbers against playoff stats are ridiculous.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 6:19 pm

Rocco wrote:
tfrizz wrote:http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=84 ... l-keymatch

Vokoun played 12 games against playoff teams and 8 against non-playoff teams.

Against playoff teams he went 10-0-0 with a 1.78 GAA and .945 sv%; against non-playoff teams he went 3-4-0 with a 3.56 GAA and .868 sv%.

Of the 6 playoff teams he faced, he excelled against Boston (1.50 GAA, .958 sv%), Ottawa (1.00 GAA, .971 sv%), NY Rangers (1.50 GAA, .952 sv%), and NY Islanders (0.90 GAA, .970 sv%); he struggled against Montreal (4.44 GAA, .882 sv%) and Washington (3.00 GAA, .875 sv%).


http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=84 ... l-keymatch

In comparison, Fleury played 15 games against playoff teams and 18 against non-playoff teams.

Against playoff teams he went 12-3-0 with a 2.40 GAA and .916 sv%; against non-playoff teams he went 11-5-0 with a 2.38 GAA and .916 sv%.

Of the 7 playoff teams he faced, he excelled against Montreal (2.40 GAA, .933 sv%), Washington (1.50 GAA, .944 sv%), Ottawa (1.44 GAA, .951 sv%), and NY Rangers (2.27 GAA, .928 sv%); he struggled against Boston (2.00 GAA, .875 sv%), Toronto (3.24 GAA, .873 sv%), and NY Islanders (3.60 GAA, .882 sv%).



What's interesting is that each goalie either put up very good or very bad numbers against the playoff teams, there was no middle ground. On the bright side, the only overlap between the two is that they both played well against Ottawa and the NY Rangers. They've basically got each others' weaknesses, in terms of opponents, covered with the exception of Toronto, who Vokoun never played. I know Bylsma used historic results to dictate his goalie schedule in the regular season, so would it make sense to use this information to dictate game 1 starters for any given series?

The other strange thing here is that it's counter-intuitive. According to the numbers, Fleury was the steadier goalie this season by posting almost identical numbers against both groups - playoffs and non-playoffs.


Thanks. The numbers aren't big enough to draw any significant conclusions, but Vokoun's numbers against playoff stats are ridiculous.


Yeah, there really isn't a big enough sample size to draw a a conclusion on for either of them but, as I said, it's interesting to see that Fleury has excelled against teams Vokoun struggled with and vice versa.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby penmyst on Wed May 08, 2013 7:27 pm

Too many inconsequential stats being tossed about in this thread.

The bottom line is that this situation, this precise circumstance, is the raison d'etre for signing Vokoun. He was brought in to be a guy you could feel confident turning to in the case of MAF hitting the "mediocre" button come playoff time.

This isn't to pile on MAF. Frankly, he is not in the top 3 problems this team has right now (but you can't scratch the entire rest of the roster). After his bumbling performance in Game 4 that allows the Islanders back in the series--- there is no longer time to wait it out. Vokoun will play, must play, and we'll see if the money spent on him was well invested.

I certainly hope that the management of the Pens don't think putting Vokoun out there instead of MAF is the only thing needed to win this series. If so, they are woefully misreading what is going on out there on the ice. I know that sounds crazy, but at this juncture considering recent playoff history (failures) that are seemingly being carbon-copied from the dismantling of the Pens last year by an inferior Philadelphia team.... I think it's high time to question the Penguins hockey smarts in relation to what IS going on out there on the ice.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby Tico Rick on Wed May 08, 2013 7:35 pm

Past stats mean nothing - in the playoffs, you go with the hot hand. And unless Vokoun's been holding ice cubes all week, his hand is hotter than Fleury's.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby The Snapshot on Wed May 08, 2013 8:56 pm

penmyst wrote:This isn't to pile on MAF. Frankly, he is not in the top 3 problems this team has right now (but you can't scratch the entire rest of the roster). After his bumbling performance in Game 4 that allows the Islanders back in the series--- there is no longer time to wait it out. Vokoun will play, must play, and we'll see if the money spent on him was well invested.


I don't get this at all, because as much as I'd LOVE to see the Pens completely dominate the Isles (which they did in game 1 before Fleury resuscitated them in Game 2) the Isles would be toast in this series with competent goaltending. People argued this same crap last year when the Flyers posted 50%+ PP numbers and scored on every shot they got.

Fleury is an absolute head-case and has proven to be one of the worst playoff goaltenders, if not the worst these playoffs.

Why is it that the Isles were so good down the stretch? They were good for the same reasons that they have at least put up a struggle in this round, but make no mistake without Fleury they are done already and talking about this as a "learning experience". The Pens are preparing for a different match-up in round 2 - one that may expose other areas of the Pens game that may be expoitable. No team is perfect, but good teams counter their weaknesses with bigger strengths. If one of their weaknesses is SO great that they cannot overcome it, they are out.

Fleury is each of the top 5 issues with this team right now.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby Desiato on Wed May 08, 2013 9:14 pm

In the big picture of this series, Fleury has given as much as taken. The Pens defense has been terrible and he's made a lot of big saves. While I support the move to start Vokoun, I think the Pens struggles are well-recognized to be that of a team, not an individual. As has been noted by at least one significant Pens player, turnovers are the main problem. IMO, those turnovers are occurring for the same reasons they did prior to 03/10: the quick breakout.

Unless Vokoun is going to skate the puck into the offensive zone himself, he's not going to solve all of the Pens' problems. With that said, I'm not concerned. No matter the actual cause, the Pens have proven they can successfully adjust. I remain very confident in this team.
Last edited by Desiato on Wed May 08, 2013 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
penmyst wrote:This isn't to pile on MAF. Frankly, he is not in the top 3 problems this team has right now (but you can't scratch the entire rest of the roster). After his bumbling performance in Game 4 that allows the Islanders back in the series--- there is no longer time to wait it out. Vokoun will play, must play, and we'll see if the money spent on him was well invested.


I don't get this at all, because as much as I'd LOVE to see the Pens completely dominate the Isles (which they did in game 1 before Fleury resuscitated them in Game 2) the Isles would be toast in this series with competent goaltending. People argued this same crap last year when the Flyers posted 50%+ PP numbers and scored on every shot they got.

Fleury is an absolute head-case and has proven to be one of the worst playoff goaltenders, if not the worst these playoffs.

Why is it that the Isles were so good down the stretch? They were good for the same reasons that they have at least put up a struggle in this round, but make no mistake without Fleury they are done already and talking about this as a "learning experience". The Pens are preparing for a different match-up in round 2 - one that may expose other areas of the Pens game that may be expoitable. No team is perfect, but good teams counter their weaknesses with bigger strengths. If one of their weaknesses is SO great that they cannot overcome it, they are out.

Fleury is each of the top 5 issues with this team right now.


You say Fleury resuscitated them in game 2, but the team started getting sloppy after going up 2-0 early. It wasn't until Martin's game tying goal over a full period later, mid way through the second, that Fleury did anything that would deflate the team.

The fact of the matter is, the team went bad first. I believe that lead to Fleury having some sort of flashback to last year and completely losing his composure. Once that was gone, there was no coming back for him. It's a sure-fire sign of a mentally weak goalie, and he absolutely needs to be replaced for the rest of the series at least, but it's not like he came out and just sucked the life out of the team from the start of game 2.

At the end of the first period that game, the only goal the Isles scores was a PP goal that was put in by Martin. Even McDonald's goal 5 minutes into the second, while weak, wasn't a deflating or defining goal; it made the game 3-2 and the Penguins still had plenty of time to regain control. However, they continued playing loose hockey and Matt Martin took advantage of a fortunate bounce on the end boards to tie the game and that was the point where everything fell apart for Fleury. After that goal, you could see that he not only lost confidence in his team but in himself as well.

I hope your right that Fleury is the only problem with the team because that means Vokoun will fix all their problems, but I'm not nearly as optimistic as you can tell by my rant. This team, right now, looks like the same team both Fleury and Vokoun struggled heavily behind early in the season - loose with the puck, struggling to get out of their zone, and can't even gain the offensive zone let alone get sustained pressure.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 08, 2013 9:57 pm

Is MAF is so mentally unstable that a tying goal in game 2 of a series his team is leading 1-0 -- coming off a shutout -- causes him to implode, then he doesn't belong in the NHL.

It's less mental to me (though at this point you can tell he is crushed), its that he is who he is: An inconsistent goalie who has holes in his game that are unlikely to ever go away. How does a goalie with 8 years of experience still have so much trouble tracking and playing pucks behind his goal line? How many times will he inexplicably knock the puck into his own net because he loses technique/position in favor of flailing about? We've been talking about the same things with him since he came into the league. He's not changing.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 08, 2013 10:06 pm

slappybrown wrote:Is MAF is so mentally unstable that a tying goal in game 2 of a series his team is leading 1-0 -- coming off a shutout -- causes him to implode, then he doesn't belong in the NHL.

It's less mental to me (though at this point you can tell he is crushed), its that he is who he is: An inconsistent goalie who has holes in his game that are unlikely to ever go away. How does a goalie with 8 years of experience still have so much trouble tracking and playing pucks behind his goal line? How many times will he inexplicably knock the puck into his own net because he loses technique/position in favor of flailing about? We've been talking about the same things with him since he came into the league. He's not changing.


And yet, all those areas are very coachable. We even saw tremendous improvement in every one of them with Conklin coaching/mentoring him in 2008, which is why I'm so quick to question Gilles Meloche and why I think if Fleury made his way to a team with a legitimate goalie coach he could go on to realize his potential as an elite goalie even at this stage in his career.

Typically, any athlete as mentally unstable as Fleury is can't coach themself. Confidence issues have you second guessing and over-analyzing every aspect of your game, and that's why Fleury needs someone to drill this stuff into him each and every day. I understand that Johnson and Vokoun are both very experienced backups, but let's be realistic - neither one of them are a good candidate to provide tutorship on butterfly goaltending. Meloche clearly isn't doing the trick, so do you give up on your 28-year-old goalie instead of replacing a goalie coach who is most likely not fit for the job? I mean, it's not like Meloche has a glowing resume. His only claim to fame is Fleury, and I have yet to see any goalie improve under his coaching; and the only reason he's got the job, as far as I can tell, is because he's buddies with Mario.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby jmh470 on Wed May 08, 2013 10:47 pm

Starting Vokoun *might* improve the Pens' goaltending, but what, pray tell, will it do about the majority of their skaters making colossally bad decisions with the puck in their own end?

Spoiler:
Nothing.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby pressure=9Pa on Wed May 08, 2013 11:47 pm

tfrizz wrote:
slappybrown wrote:Is MAF is so mentally unstable that a tying goal in game 2 of a series his team is leading 1-0 -- coming off a shutout -- causes him to implode, then he doesn't belong in the NHL.

It's less mental to me (though at this point you can tell he is crushed), its that he is who he is: An inconsistent goalie who has holes in his game that are unlikely to ever go away. How does a goalie with 8 years of experience still have so much trouble tracking and playing pucks behind his goal line? How many times will he inexplicably knock the puck into his own net because he loses technique/position in favor of flailing about? We've been talking about the same things with him since he came into the league. He's not changing.


And yet, all those areas are very coachable. We even saw tremendous improvement in every one of them with Conklin coaching/mentoring him in 2008, which is why I'm so quick to question Gilles Meloche and why I think if Fleury made his way to a team with a legitimate goalie coach he could go on to realize his potential as an elite goalie even at this stage in his career.

Typically, any athlete as mentally unstable as Fleury is can't coach themself. Confidence issues have you second guessing and over-analyzing every aspect of your game, and that's why Fleury needs someone to drill this stuff into him each and every day. I understand that Johnson and Vokoun are both very experienced backups, but let's be realistic - neither one of them are a good candidate to provide tutorship on butterfly goaltending. Meloche clearly isn't doing the trick, so do you give up on your 28-year-old goalie instead of replacing a goalie coach who is most likely not fit for the job? I mean, it's not like Meloche has a glowing resume. His only claim to fame is Fleury, and I have yet to see any goalie improve under his coaching; and the only reason he's got the job, as far as I can tell, is because he's buddies with Mario.


Very interesting topic. I think you make some very good points here. I'd recomend a seperate thread, but there are too many of those right now.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby Scott on Thu May 09, 2013 4:35 am

there was a time this year Vokoun was not seeing the puck very well. At the same time his feel for the game seemed to be a bit off too. Some bizarre goals he let in...as a matter of fact he had a few goals let in that would have rivaled those softies Fleury let in during Game 4.

Anyone remember the comeback against a Flyer team only to have a puck shot off his behind to go in in the closing moments to give the flyers the win. :face:

I hope others are right on the Vokoun sentiment but I really believe the game for him to have played was game 4 as it was the proper time to give him a go and Fleury rest.

Game 5 might be too late. Hopefully the Pens understand Vokoun can only save pucks and not play defense and score too. HOPE
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 09, 2013 10:30 am

tfrizz wrote:
slappybrown wrote:Is MAF is so mentally unstable that a tying goal in game 2 of a series his team is leading 1-0 -- coming off a shutout -- causes him to implode, then he doesn't belong in the NHL.

It's less mental to me (though at this point you can tell he is crushed), its that he is who he is: An inconsistent goalie who has holes in his game that are unlikely to ever go away. How does a goalie with 8 years of experience still have so much trouble tracking and playing pucks behind his goal line? How many times will he inexplicably knock the puck into his own net because he loses technique/position in favor of flailing about? We've been talking about the same things with him since he came into the league. He's not changing.


And yet, all those areas are very coachable. We even saw tremendous improvement in every one of them with Conklin coaching/mentoring him in 2008, which is why I'm so quick to question Gilles Meloche and why I think if Fleury made his way to a team with a legitimate goalie coach he could go on to realize his potential as an elite goalie even at this stage in his career.

Typically, any athlete as mentally unstable as Fleury is can't coach themself. Confidence issues have you second guessing and over-analyzing every aspect of your game, and that's why Fleury needs someone to drill this stuff into him each and every day. I understand that Johnson and Vokoun are both very experienced backups, but let's be realistic - neither one of them are a good candidate to provide tutorship on butterfly goaltending. Meloche clearly isn't doing the trick, so do you give up on your 28-year-old goalie instead of replacing a goalie coach who is most likely not fit for the job? I mean, it's not like Meloche has a glowing resume. His only claim to fame is Fleury, and I have yet to see any goalie improve under his coaching; and the only reason he's got the job, as far as I can tell, is because he's buddies with Mario.


Yep, I have seen you be critical of Meloche in the past. Frankly, I don't know if he's the problem, or no amount of coaching can change his bad habits. I'm hesitant to absolve him because Meloche might be weak.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby tfrizz on Thu May 09, 2013 10:36 am

slappybrown wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
slappybrown wrote:Is MAF is so mentally unstable that a tying goal in game 2 of a series his team is leading 1-0 -- coming off a shutout -- causes him to implode, then he doesn't belong in the NHL.

It's less mental to me (though at this point you can tell he is crushed), its that he is who he is: An inconsistent goalie who has holes in his game that are unlikely to ever go away. How does a goalie with 8 years of experience still have so much trouble tracking and playing pucks behind his goal line? How many times will he inexplicably knock the puck into his own net because he loses technique/position in favor of flailing about? We've been talking about the same things with him since he came into the league. He's not changing.


And yet, all those areas are very coachable. We even saw tremendous improvement in every one of them with Conklin coaching/mentoring him in 2008, which is why I'm so quick to question Gilles Meloche and why I think if Fleury made his way to a team with a legitimate goalie coach he could go on to realize his potential as an elite goalie even at this stage in his career.

Typically, any athlete as mentally unstable as Fleury is can't coach themself. Confidence issues have you second guessing and over-analyzing every aspect of your game, and that's why Fleury needs someone to drill this stuff into him each and every day. I understand that Johnson and Vokoun are both very experienced backups, but let's be realistic - neither one of them are a good candidate to provide tutorship on butterfly goaltending. Meloche clearly isn't doing the trick, so do you give up on your 28-year-old goalie instead of replacing a goalie coach who is most likely not fit for the job? I mean, it's not like Meloche has a glowing resume. His only claim to fame is Fleury, and I have yet to see any goalie improve under his coaching; and the only reason he's got the job, as far as I can tell, is because he's buddies with Mario.


Yep, I have seen you be critical of Meloche in the past. Frankly, I don't know if he's the problem, or no amount of coaching can change his bad habits. I'm hesitant to absolve him because Meloche might be weak.


You don't have to absolve Fleury, but if Meloche is as bad as I believe he is then the chances of developing a quality goalie within the organization are non-existent.
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Re: Vokoun will be the game changer.

Postby murphydump55 on Thu May 09, 2013 11:28 am

I said it before and I'll say it again....

If Vokoun goes in and just plays average, we win this series. That's all this team needs, average goaltending against the Isles. If he can refrain from letting in the back-breaking softies, it will go a LONG way.

I stand by my prediction that we will win the next two games with Vokoun in net. He doesn't have to be a stand out, he just needs to give them a chance, which Fleury didn't do. The only way we lose is if Vokoun spazzes out like Fleury has done in the post-season so often.....and the odds of both of them having outings like that are slim.

Just my thoughts.
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