'13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 8:05 pm

Also, if there is a distinct and consistent difference in how a team plays in front of one goalie vs the other, you HAVE to consider it. We had a situation like this in college where we had 2 very similarly skilled goalies. Neither was necessarily better than the other. Difference was that the way one played kept the team consistent and calm. The other played in a more Hasek like manner which caused more panic, despite him still being very good at it. The team played better with the calmer goalie and his stats were better because of it.

If you look at the 8 games so far and can easily see that the team has played significantly more solid in the last 4 vs the first 4, I'm not discounting that from the goalie stats as a goalie can influence that. In the Pens case, Vokoun's ability to play the puck better has significantly helped out breakout process because guys don't have to come all the way behind the net. Vokoun pushes the play meaning we don't NEED long passes through the neutral zone, and when we do them, the other team doesn't have as much time to set up for them. It helps the overall team, which helps explain why his numbers are better.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby shmenguin on Sat May 18, 2013 8:06 pm

fleury's history is a big reason he's on the bench right now. And that's not us Internet jockeys talking. That's ray shero and dan bylsma. He doesn't get a clean slate every year. Or a nice cushion because of the lack of recent data on the other guy.

The history is immensely significant. And that's why it's brought up over and over and over. It's just that important
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 8:07 pm

PAPLine wrote:
columbia wrote:I'm not a fan of defensemen who can't (or won't) perform the root skills of their position, so it makes me happy to see Karlsson suck.

I have never felt that Karlsson was much of a defensive defenseman, his forte has always been scoring. And that part of his game is pretty much MIA.


I feel like the Sens are being dumb and asking him to play more defensively than he does during the year. Good for us b/c it limits his scoring and it puts him in positions to get burned. However if I were an Ottawa coach, I would be telling him to go back to how he plays in the regular season.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby shmenguin on Sat May 18, 2013 8:25 pm

Rylan wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Rylan wrote:The point I was making was the fact that people are continually using Fleury's lack of success in previous years as a reason why Vokoun is better. It makes no sense.


how does that make no sense? it's a simple exercise in comparison. one thing being bad makes the other thing better in relation. it makes nothing but sense.


Ok, compare Vokoun's play in the previous 4 playoffs please. Please, exercise this simple comparison for me.


This is just deflecting. I guess you knew it was a thin argument.

But to this modified point, fleury's history lowers his value in a comparison. Moreso than the lack of playoff data on Vokoun. The unknown is better than the repeat failure - at least with these 2 players.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Desiato on Sat May 18, 2013 8:51 pm

bhaw wrote:I feel like the Sens are being dumb and asking him to play more defensively than he does during the year. Good for us b/c it limits his scoring and it puts him in positions to get burned. However if I were an Ottawa coach, I would be telling him to go back to how he plays in the regular season.


Can Karlsson even play his regular season game? He doesn't look anywhere close to 100%. It must be tough to adapt when you're used to out-skating everyone. It's a good lesson for him.

The Sens are doing it the right way. This is a developmental year for them. They want their franchise player to better learn how to play well when not at 100% and develop into a solid defensive player.

They're not going to win the cup with him playing regular season hockey, so why develop bad playoff habits? Besides, the only way they'll beat the Pens is by shutting them down and forcing turnovers. Opening it up isn't going to help them.

I think back to 2007 while watching this series. Then, the Sens were the established contenders and the Pens were the playoff newbies. Time flies. It wouldn't shock me if the result was reversed as the roles are.

Re Fleury: I have no criticism about how the Pens are managing the goaltenders, but I have to say that the Pens played just fine in front of him for long stretches of the regular season, and he responded with generally strong performances. Likewise, when the Pens didn't play well in front of Fleury and Vokoun, they both looked bad. Fleury has only had the benfefit of the Pens playing well in front of him for one game during the playoffs. I think his detractors are being a bit too opportunistic and unfair.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby columbia on Sat May 18, 2013 9:12 pm

What a confusing argument for MAF.

At best, the baseline for him should (and hopefully is), he get's back in if Vokoun falters; and falters != losing a game.

To argue that it should be a tossup or MAF is the better choice: :?: :?: :?:
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby PAPLine on Sat May 18, 2013 9:26 pm

bhaw wrote:
PAPLine wrote:
Great58 wrote:
-Speaking of Vokoun, minus the 2 huge saves he made on breakaways, he was pretty bad last night. He gave up some bad/soft goals, and untimely goal, bad rebounds, and was horrible playing the puck. He needs to be much better, because there really is no quit on OTT.

That was my thought as well. Yes, he made some great saves, but he let some really weak ones in as well, similar to what got MAF pulled. TV isn't as hot a hand as he was prior.

Vokoun hasn't played this much in quite a while. I believe at some point he will need a break. Rather than wait for him to lose, I think game three offers the perfect opportunity to try MAF again. It's a game on the road away from the pressures of the home fans. If they lose, they can still go back to Vokoun for game 4 if Fleury plays badly and still wrap the series up at home in 5. If they play TV and he struggles and they lose, then they are faced with Marc going into a more pressure-packed situation of an essentially "must win" game 4 in order to keep the series on track.

I guess it depends on how much you believe the Fleury is a complete mess, if he has any redemption possible. If you do think he can contribute, game 3 might be a good option to try him.

I was thinking if we win game 3 with TV, then game 4 would be perfect for MAF. Absolutely no pressure and TV gets a rest. Remember he blew up the game after the 2nd SO.


If we win 5 straight with Vokoun, Bylsma should be hung from the rafters if he switches goalies. Vokoun would get plenty of rest between series. He's 36, not 80.

It's the playoffs. There is no room for experimenting or hand holding. It's all business right now.

I don't disagree with anything you said, and I am big on dancing with the guy what brung you. All I am saying is that Tommy V hasn't had this much work all year. Maybe game 2 was his bad game, maybe not. he comes out stellar in game 3 the you stay with him. You may also be right about the rest between series. Pens /Ott should be 5 or less, but the B's/ Rags will probably go the limit.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Sat May 18, 2013 9:28 pm

I agree on all accounts bhaw. Yes I did say stats can lie, it was more to get talking towards other things than just using a stat trump card. I think it does a disservice to the conversation to just go here are the stats, the end.

As for the distinct difference, there seems to be a renewed sense of playing team defense and clearing out the middle of the ice. You have to recognize that the team looks a lot calmer and isn't causing as much commotion around their goalie as they were early in the playoffs. They are doing their job and allowing Vokoun the space needed to be comfortable. I think that goes a long ways to keeping the goalie calm. So I think there needs to be a recognized give and take. Vokoun playing calm has had a perceived calming influence, but I also think credit has to be given to the coaches and team for making sure to play better defense.

Now honestly, how many bad games did Fleury truly have this postseason? It wasn't 4, nor was it 3. Heck I would say he had 1 bad game and that was game 4. And he was abysmal that game. Completely incapable of defending that game. But he was not bad the first 3 games, he was left out to dry and made more saves than he is given credit for.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby columbia on Sat May 18, 2013 9:49 pm

I'd definitely like to see DB pull Vokoun, if there's a penalty shot in any of the games.

Spoiler:
And put him right back in. :pop:
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby GDR on Sat May 18, 2013 10:52 pm

Spezza is playing tomorrow

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=423483
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sigwolf on Sat May 18, 2013 11:05 pm

Rylan wrote:I agree on all accounts bhaw. Yes I did say stats can lie, it was more to get talking towards other things than just using a stat trump card. I think it does a disservice to the conversation to just go here are the stats, the end. .


Just about everyone in this thread has used evidence other than just stats. Arguing against stats is fine and dandy in normal situations with a playoff team with two goalies playing where the stats are off by a tenth or two on GAA and a 1000th or eight on save percentage. In this case, when you are talking about two goalies that have played the exact same number of games and minutes, yet the GAA differs by 2x, or 1.70 goals a game, or 100%, and save percentage varies by more than five 100ths,however you want to view it, the stats are showing who is getting the job done.

Rylan wrote:As for the distinct difference, there seems to be a renewed sense of playing team defense and clearing out the middle of the ice. You have to recognize that the team looks a lot calmer and isn't causing as much commotion around their goalie as they were early in the playoffs. They are doing their job and allowing Vokoun the space needed to be comfortable. I think that goes a long ways to keeping the goalie calm. So I think there needs to be a recognized give and take. Vokoun playing calm has had a perceived calming influence, but I also think credit has to be given to the coaches and team for making sure to play better defense. .


This has also been covered. It doesn't matter why a team plays better in front of one goalie over another, it only matters that they do. Maybe, as has been stated, they have more confidence in Vokoun, and hence play a more confident game in front of him. Maybe the coaching staff has more confidence in him, and calls for a different gameplan. Maybe it's as simple as something speculated when Veronique gave birth... he's not getting much rest at home with a new baby... additional stresses, etc. In terms of the Penguins winning the Cup, none of these reasons matter. What matters is winning the Cup, and going with the personnel most likely to get you there.

Rylan wrote:Now honestly, how many bad games did Fleury truly have this postseason? It wasn't 4, nor was it 3. Heck I would say he had 1 bad game and that was game 4. And he was abysmal that game. Completely incapable of defending that game. But he was not bad the first 3 games, he was left out to dry and made more saves than he is given credit for.


This is the easiest one to handle, in four games each, Fleury is 2-2, and Vokoun is 4-0, with the same team in front of them. Before anyone argues Fleury didn't have Crosby in the first game, he have him in both games he lost, so that more than covers that arguement. No one can argue that Vokoun has not been left left out to dry plenty of times in his four starts. The difference is that he has come out with the wins. The situation could well change before the playoffs end, or they might not, but right now, Vokoun is giving the Pens the best chance to win, and that is why he should continue to start.
Last edited by Sigwolf on Sat May 18, 2013 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Great58 on Sat May 18, 2013 11:29 pm

This has also been covered. It doesn't matter why a team plays better in front of one goalie over another, it only matters that they do. Maybe, as has been stated, they have more confidence in Vokoun, and hence play a more confident game in front of him.

It's funny, I always see that the Pens play a tighter defensive game in front of the backup because they have less confidence in them then they do MAF, so they throw everything in to cover for Fleury's absence. That doesn't account for Fleury's crappy goals let in, but does explain some of the stistical differences where on most nights Fleury passes the sight test as the better of the two goalies.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sigwolf on Sat May 18, 2013 11:34 pm

Great58 wrote:
This has also been covered. It doesn't matter why a team plays better in front of one goalie over another, it only matters that they do. Maybe, as has been stated, they have more confidence in Vokoun, and hence play a more confident game in front of him.

It's funny, I always see that the Pens play a tighter defensive game in front of the backup because they have less confidence in them then they do MAF, so they throw everything in to cover for Fleury's absence. That doesn't account for Fleury's crappy goals let in, but does explain some of the stistical differences where on most nights Fleury passes the sight test as the better of the two goalies.


Again, doesn't matter. If that's the reason you want to use, fine, they still manage to score just as many goals for, so they are not giving up anything offensively. If thats what it takes to make them play better defensively, so be it. Given the caliber of the 'backup' in this case, and the lack of offensive dropoff, I don't buy this personally, but whatever it takes. Not to mention, people here are arguing here that Vokoun's better numbers come from the team playing better in front of him. If all it takes to make the team play better is a worse goalie, why waste money on the position when you can sign Joe Schmoe from the beer league for minimum salary?
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby lemieuxReturns on Sat May 18, 2013 11:52 pm

No MAF. That is all. Thanks.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby columbia on Sun May 19, 2013 12:12 am

Things could be worse: we could be discussing MAF's thoughts on Stalin.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sigwolf on Sun May 19, 2013 12:18 am

columbia wrote:Things could be worse: we could be discussing MAF's thoughts on Stalin.

:lol: Thanks for the laugh before I stagger off to bed.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Froggy on Sun May 19, 2013 12:39 am

let's not overlook the addition of kennedy and vitale in conjunction with fleury being sat. together, that sends the message of, "do your job, and you'll play. don't and you won't". this notion is probably just as important as any physical roster moves. Malkin in particular has been much more responsible a player since game 4 of the Isles series
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby The Snapshot on Sun May 19, 2013 9:18 am

Enjoying people "discussing" Vokoun versus Fleury. I believe that IF we get to the Finals versus Chicago or LA we will need Fleury to be at his best. I believe that those two teams can exploit Vokoun's slower side to side movement with their Forward talent and offensive abilities on D. This coming from a guy who is sick and tired on Fleury's act.

There isn't a team in the East that can really do that with the Pens focused more on defensive positioning and forward responsibility.

It is an interesting discussion, but I'm not sure that Fleury can get back to being "hot" from the bench. It is a can of worms that Fleury first opened and now Vokoun has completely removed the lid. I honestly do not know what I would do as the coach when that becomes a reality, but I know for certain that you never look ahead as a coach - so that would tell me that Vokoun plays until the team loses that edge.

I don't know why people resort to stats to support arguments counter to what your eyes clearly tell you though. Vokoun ends games with his arms raised and clearly does not let the previous play impact what he does on the next shot. When your team is playing as well as the Pens are, they sense this and continue to play aggressively and confidently. It is pretty clear from their play that they believe Vokoun will make that next save, while in front of Fleury they scramble and overplay things after a bad goal. It is pretty easy to spot. Almost a collective "oh no" reaction when one leaks in.

You can't find a stat for that.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sun May 19, 2013 10:07 am

The Snapshot wrote:Enjoying people "discussing" Vokoun versus Fleury. I believe that IF we get to the Finals versus Chicago or LA we will need Fleury to be at his best. I believe that those two teams can exploit Vokoun's slower side to side movement with their Forward talent and offensive abilities on D. This coming from a guy who is sick and tired on Fleury's act.

There isn't a team in the East that can really do that with the Pens focused more on defensive positioning and forward responsibility.

It is an interesting discussion, but I'm not sure that Fleury can get back to being "hot" from the bench. It is a can of worms that Fleury first opened and now Vokoun has completely removed the lid. I honestly do not know what I would do as the coach when that becomes a reality, but I know for certain that you never look ahead as a coach - so that would tell me that Vokoun plays until the team loses that edge.

I don't know why people resort to stats to support arguments counter to what your eyes clearly tell you though. Vokoun ends games with his arms raised and clearly does not let the previous play impact what he does on the next shot. When your team is playing as well as the Pens are, they sense this and continue to play aggressively and confidently. It is pretty clear from their play that they believe Vokoun will make that next save, while in front of Fleury they scramble and overplay things after a bad goal. It is pretty easy to spot. Almost a collective "oh no" reaction when one leaks in.

You can't find a stat for that.


TSONR. Fleury in the last 2 games he played was capping out around 7.3. Vokoun has maxed out around 5.4 but tends to finish games at 2.3

For the record, TSONR stands for "The Snapshot 'Oh No' Rating"
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby malkinshair on Sun May 19, 2013 10:08 am

Sigwolf wrote:
Great58 wrote:
This has also been covered. It doesn't matter why a team plays better in front of one goalie over another, it only matters that they do. Maybe, as has been stated, they have more confidence in Vokoun, and hence play a more confident game in front of him.

It's funny, I always see that the Pens play a tighter defensive game in front of the backup because they have less confidence in them then they do MAF, so they throw everything in to cover for Fleury's absence. That doesn't account for Fleury's crappy goals let in, but does explain some of the stistical differences where on most nights Fleury passes the sight test as the better of the two goalies.


Again, doesn't matter. If that's the reason you want to use, fine, they still manage to score just as many goals for, so they are not giving up anything offensively. If thats what it takes to make them play better defensively, so be it. Given the caliber of the 'backup' in this case, and the lack of offensive dropoff, I don't buy this personally, but whatever it takes. Not to mention, people here are arguing here that Vokoun's better numbers come from the team playing better in front of him. If all it takes to make the team play better is a worse goalie, why waste money on the position when you can sign Joe Schmoe from the beer league for minimum salary?


I think that's the point. When the team plays good in front of him, and he is 'on', Fleury is pretty darn close to elite (i.e. capable of the spectacular while being all around solid). He was pretty much all year. The people arguing 'for Fleury' are simply stating that if the team plays smart and tight in front of him, he's better than 'adequate', and better than Vokoun. People love to bash Fleury for his playoff performance the last 2 years while simultaneously ignoring the crapfest of a team that was playing in front of him. Does it totally excuse his overall performance...no, but why is it that the team's perceived 'lack of confidence' in MAF can affect the way they play but the opposite can't be true? Why can't Fleury be affected by the poor defensive play in front of him? I know is a 'chicken or egg' argument, but I see Fleury start to 'do too much' when there is chaos in front of him.

Also, TV has played exactly 1 game behind a defensive effort that Fleury faced in games 2, 3, and 4. In game 6, Vokoun gave up 3, and if Moulson doesn't push a gift of a goal wide in the 3rd period we're most likely playing a game 7. He's been 'gifted' a lot of good bounces since playing, while Fleury was crushed by bad ones. That doesn't make TV a better goaltender...just a luckier one.

...and anyone thinking that Fleury wouldn't be getting completely trashed on this board had he been in and had the exact same game 2 as Vokoun is just ignorant to the 'Fleury sucks mantra'. A soft goal (that TV deflected in and SCORED ON HIMSELF!!!1!!!), a momentum sucking goal 40 secs after Sid's HT, and a goal that he got a great look going in from, you know, Bloomfield. Any and all would be used as proof as to why the backup would be better...even in a win.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby The Snapshot on Sun May 19, 2013 10:12 am

bhaw wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:Enjoying people "discussing" Vokoun versus Fleury. I believe that IF we get to the Finals versus Chicago or LA we will need Fleury to be at his best. I believe that those two teams can exploit Vokoun's slower side to side movement with their Forward talent and offensive abilities on D. This coming from a guy who is sick and tired on Fleury's act.

There isn't a team in the East that can really do that with the Pens focused more on defensive positioning and forward responsibility.

It is an interesting discussion, but I'm not sure that Fleury can get back to being "hot" from the bench. It is a can of worms that Fleury first opened and now Vokoun has completely removed the lid. I honestly do not know what I would do as the coach when that becomes a reality, but I know for certain that you never look ahead as a coach - so that would tell me that Vokoun plays until the team loses that edge.

I don't know why people resort to stats to support arguments counter to what your eyes clearly tell you though. Vokoun ends games with his arms raised and clearly does not let the previous play impact what he does on the next shot. When your team is playing as well as the Pens are, they sense this and continue to play aggressively and confidently. It is pretty clear from their play that they believe Vokoun will make that next save, while in front of Fleury they scramble and overplay things after a bad goal. It is pretty easy to spot. Almost a collective "oh no" reaction when one leaks in.

You can't find a stat for that.


TSONR. Fleury in the last 2 games he played was capping out around 7.3. Vokoun has maxed out around 5.4 but tends to finish games at 2.3

For the record, TSONR stands for "The Snapshot 'Oh No' Rating"


A silent T and that is pronounced SONAR? I like it.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sun May 19, 2013 10:17 am

The Snapshot wrote:
bhaw wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:Enjoying people "discussing" Vokoun versus Fleury. I believe that IF we get to the Finals versus Chicago or LA we will need Fleury to be at his best. I believe that those two teams can exploit Vokoun's slower side to side movement with their Forward talent and offensive abilities on D. This coming from a guy who is sick and tired on Fleury's act.

There isn't a team in the East that can really do that with the Pens focused more on defensive positioning and forward responsibility.

It is an interesting discussion, but I'm not sure that Fleury can get back to being "hot" from the bench. It is a can of worms that Fleury first opened and now Vokoun has completely removed the lid. I honestly do not know what I would do as the coach when that becomes a reality, but I know for certain that you never look ahead as a coach - so that would tell me that Vokoun plays until the team loses that edge.

I don't know why people resort to stats to support arguments counter to what your eyes clearly tell you though. Vokoun ends games with his arms raised and clearly does not let the previous play impact what he does on the next shot. When your team is playing as well as the Pens are, they sense this and continue to play aggressively and confidently. It is pretty clear from their play that they believe Vokoun will make that next save, while in front of Fleury they scramble and overplay things after a bad goal. It is pretty easy to spot. Almost a collective "oh no" reaction when one leaks in.

You can't find a stat for that.


TSONR. Fleury in the last 2 games he played was capping out around 7.3. Vokoun has maxed out around 5.4 but tends to finish games at 2.3

For the record, TSONR stands for "The Snapshot 'Oh No' Rating"


A silent T and that is pronounced SONAR? I like it.


It's actually a living statistic that adjusts in real time. In after the fact discussion that is calm and rational, you have TSONR ("SONAR"). During the game and a couple beers in, you have the TSOSR ("TOASTER"). After many beers and getting owned by the Isles, you have the TSGFYR (use your imagination on pronunciation). Same number, just referred to differently in different situations.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby pcm on Sun May 19, 2013 10:17 am

One thing we know about Blsyma is that he almost always plays it safe (as far as his decision making). That means he's going to go with Vokoun at least until he loses a game. If the Pens lose tonight, I think that would warrant seeing Fleury in net for game 4. As snapper said, we'll ned him in the finals at the least.

The argument that Vokoun has been lights out better than Fleury, complete with superior stats to back it up, is silly. I see a team that got a wake-up call and changed its game against the Islanders. Pulling MAF just happened to be that wakeup call.

Is Lehner better than Anderson? He sure looked it in game 2. But that's because the Sens woke up and starting playing better in front of him. That momentum carried back to the goalie and he rode the wave to making some pretty good saves. Are the Sens going with Lehner in game 3? No.

WIth the Pens, the wake-up call goes a bit deeper than 1 game. They've stumbled through the playoffs for a few years now, and that's not Fleury's fault. Has he been part of the problem? Yes. But anyone can see the team in front him played like poo. It's a recipricol equation. Changing the goalie is just the easiest change to make. So Vokoun comes in, settles the team down. They get the playoff monkey off their back, win a round and have now "found their game."

Vokoun got the job done. It'll soon be time to bring back Fleury, but it won't happen until the Pens lose 1.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sun May 19, 2013 10:21 am

If you are comparing Lehrner/Anderson to Vokoun/Fleury, there are a few problems there. The most noticeable being that Lehrner is a 21 year old rookie. Vokoun has a bit more experience.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sarcastic on Sun May 19, 2013 10:35 am

The Snapshot wrote:Enjoying people "discussing" Vokoun versus Fleury. I believe that IF we get to the Finals versus Chicago or LA we will need Fleury to be at his best. I believe that those two teams can exploit Vokoun's slower side to side movement with their Forward talent and offensive abilities on D. This coming from a guy who is sick and tired on Fleury's act.


Possibly so. For now, I'm watching and evaluating.
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