'13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby penny lane on Sat May 18, 2013 6:05 pm

Image

X murray wants to play; who says NO. :shock: :o

off day news
http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?i ... 6#TAPEGAME
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Sat May 18, 2013 6:06 pm

lol the look on Kunitz face is pretty funny.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat May 18, 2013 6:07 pm

Stats aren't the end all be all, but Vokoun is playing better than Fleury was in his playoff starts. Period.

Have the Penguins played some better defensive hockey? Probably. But you guys act like Vokoun hasn't been hung out to dry just like Fleury was. How many breakaway/odd man rushes has Vokoun stopped in the last four games?

Not to mention, in his first couple of starts, his stellar play was all that kept the Penguins from being down one or more goals to the Islanders. If you recall correctly, they were dominating the shot totals. Don't act like the Penguins have been playing lights-out hockey with TV in net at all times.

To call it "new toy" syndrome is just silly. Did TV give up a bad goal last game? Yes. The difference is, his body of work so far has been pretty rock-solid. Fleury was giving up multiple bad goals per game, and his entire body of work sucked (minus Game 1)
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Sat May 18, 2013 6:18 pm

Fleury's only real bad game was game 4. But that is besides the point.

The point I was making was the fact that people are continually using Fleury's lack of success in previous years as a reason why Vokoun is better. It makes no sense. None to bring that up when discussing the merits between Vokoun and Fleury. Thus, a variation of new toy syndrome. People are continually using facts to support the idea that Fleury is trash, while only using this post-season as a reason why Vokoun is better. I am saying, use similar observations and compare apples to apples and stop bringing up the past because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Another point, the idea that because Vokoun has been hung out to dry and Fleury was also hung out to dry does compare similar situations. But, Fleury did not allow goals on every breakaway either. We are using confirmation bias (see Vokoun made a huge save on Greening to win the game, and look at Fleury standing like a statue as Okposo scores man he is playing terrible) and being as subjective as anyone supporting Fleury's play.

In the end, I personally think Fleury provides the Pens with the best chances to win the cup. But, I am not against Vokoun getting starts either. That said, Vokoun has allowed his fair share of softies and has gotten mitten hands from fans for situations where Fleury gets unbelievably blasted. I would prefer consistency in discussions rather than the by the book "look Fleury was terrible against the Flyers and apparently he was absolutely horrendous against Tampa Bay and don't get me started on the Montreal series" and actually discuss the merits and demerits of Fleury and Vokoun's play rather than going back to the exact same **** phrases.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat May 18, 2013 6:22 pm

People are using Fleury's past years of garbage play to show a trend over a larger sample size including this year that Fleury gives up back breaking goals and has been all around bad in playoffs since he won the cup. Right now TV is the better option no matter how you look at it.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby SolidSnake on Sat May 18, 2013 6:26 pm

Is Flower anywhere on those pictures? if not he's definitely gone after next year
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby llipgh2 on Sat May 18, 2013 7:03 pm

As long as Tomas continues to win, he will play. Shaky looking or not.

If he crashes and burns, we'll see Fleury.

You don't mess with what works in the playoffs. And I'm a Fleury fan.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 7:17 pm

MRandall25 wrote:I find it funny when Fleury gives up bad goals in consecutive games, the reaction is "OMG WE NEED TO PULL FLEURY!!!", but when Vokoun does the same it's like they never happened.


So after 8 playoff games, your assessment is that they have played at equal levels? Is that what you're getting at? I've been pretty good at supporting Fleury through the years and even giving him the fact that our system and defense sucked out loud in the Islander series, but Vokoun hasn't let someone pass the puck from behind the net into him at 5 mph and let it go into the goal.

Other major difference is that Vokoun has recovered after bad goals and came up big on saves after weak ones where as Fleury's play continued to deteriorate.

But if you're saying their play is equal, please explain.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Eismann on Sat May 18, 2013 7:18 pm



In other off-day news:

1) I bought Dupuis Dijon mustard at Jiggle. Smooth. Piquant. Dare I say..saucy?

2) Whenever I see/hear the name Sam Kasan from TTM, I think of Yev Kassem.

http://seinfeld.wikia.com/wiki/Yev_Kassem
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 7:24 pm

Rylan wrote:Fleury's only real bad game was game 4. But that is besides the point.

The point I was making was the fact that people are continually using Fleury's lack of success in previous years as a reason why Vokoun is better. It makes no sense. None to bring that up when discussing the merits between Vokoun and Fleury. Thus, a variation of new toy syndrome. People are continually using facts to support the idea that Fleury is trash, while only using this post-season as a reason why Vokoun is better. I am saying, use similar observations and compare apples to apples and stop bringing up the past because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Another point, the idea that because Vokoun has been hung out to dry and Fleury was also hung out to dry does compare similar situations. But, Fleury did not allow goals on every breakaway either. We are using confirmation bias (see Vokoun made a huge save on Greening to win the game, and look at Fleury standing like a statue as Okposo scores man he is playing terrible) and being as subjective as anyone supporting Fleury's play.

In the end, I personally think Fleury provides the Pens with the best chances to win the cup. But, I am not against Vokoun getting starts either. That said, Vokoun has allowed his fair share of softies and has gotten mitten hands from fans for situations where Fleury gets unbelievably blasted. I would prefer consistency in discussions rather than the by the book "look Fleury was terrible against the Flyers and apparently he was absolutely horrendous against Tampa Bay and don't get me started on the Montreal series" and actually discuss the merits and demerits of Fleury and Vokoun's play rather than going back to the exact same **** phrases.



Simple answer... look at how each has played AFTER allowing the softie. Fleury's play continued to be at a low level and get worse after the soft goals. Vokoun's play leveled out and got stronger. I'm not even looking at past years for Fleury. Just at the 4 games he has played vs the 4 Vokoun has played. If stats lie, the eyeball test shows that Vokoun's confidence isn't shaken after a bad goal.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby shmenguin on Sat May 18, 2013 7:29 pm

weird thread. in the playoffs, fleury was bad this year, bad last year, average the year before and bad the year before that. he was pulled for a guy who isn't great, but is still a better option. what's the argument? how is there even one?

it's funny that the people who are being contentious are doing it under the guise of being fair and kind, but at the same time, they're trying to kill all the positivity surrounding vokoun. it's like "STOP BEING SO NEGATIVE!!! BUT DON'T BE POSITIVE ABOUT VOKOUN EITHER!!"

can't people just support the guy in net right now?
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Sat May 18, 2013 7:30 pm

shmenguin wrote:weird thread. in the playoffs, fleury was bad this year, bad last year, average the year before and bad the year before that. he was pulled for a guy who isn't great, but is still a better option. what's the argument? how is there even one?

it's funny that the people who are being contentious are doing it under the guise of being fair and kind, but at the same time, they're trying to kill all the positivity surrounding vokoun. it's like "STOP BEING SO NEGATIVE!!! BUT DON'T BE POSITIVE ABOUT VOKOUN EITHER!!"

can't people just support the guy in net right now?


no
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby shmenguin on Sat May 18, 2013 7:33 pm

Rylan wrote:The point I was making was the fact that people are continually using Fleury's lack of success in previous years as a reason why Vokoun is better. It makes no sense.


how does that make no sense? it's a simple exercise in comparison. one thing being bad makes the other thing better in relation. it makes nothing but sense.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 7:38 pm

I also don't get the notion that the Pens can't win the Cup with Vokoun. The Flyers got to game 6 with Michael freaking Leighton and a weaker roster. This team has every ability to win with him in net.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Sat May 18, 2013 7:40 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Rylan wrote:The point I was making was the fact that people are continually using Fleury's lack of success in previous years as a reason why Vokoun is better. It makes no sense.


how does that make no sense? it's a simple exercise in comparison. one thing being bad makes the other thing better in relation. it makes nothing but sense.


Ok, compare Vokoun's play in the previous 4 playoffs please. Please, exercise this simple comparison for me.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Sat May 18, 2013 7:41 pm

bhaw wrote:I also don't get the notion that the Pens can't win the Cup with Vokoun. The Flyers got to game 6 with Michael freaking Leighton and a weaker roster. This team has every ability to win with him in net.


I think Vokoun can win the cup. I just think Fleury provides the best option.

Vokoun is slow and I think that can be exploited. I think Fleury's athleticism and quickness would be a better option. That is my reasoning.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 7:43 pm

So you can't compare goalies unless they've played an equal number of games? I don't get what's going on here... at all...

Does this mean I can't say Iginla is better than TK because TK has played in more playoff games in the last 5 years than Iginla?
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Sat May 18, 2013 7:45 pm

bhaw wrote:So you can't compare goalies unless they've played an equal number of games? I don't get what's going on here... at all...

Does this mean I can't say Iginla is better than TK because TK has played in more playoff games in the last 5 years than Iginla?


Hyperbole. Nice and irrelevant. Way to try and think of what I am saying and just sound a smart ass in the process. Bravo, really.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 7:46 pm

Rylan wrote:
bhaw wrote:So you can't compare goalies unless they've played an equal number of games? I don't get what's going on here... at all...

Does this mean I can't say Iginla is better than TK because TK has played in more playoff games in the last 5 years than Iginla?


Hyperbole. Nice and irrelevant. Way to try and think of what I am saying and just sound a smart ass in the process. Bravo, really.


What you are saying makes no sense whatsoever. We have to all hate Vokoun b/c he's let in a few softies is all I'm taking away from it.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby PAPLine on Sat May 18, 2013 7:47 pm

Great58 wrote:
-Speaking of Vokoun, minus the 2 huge saves he made on breakaways, he was pretty bad last night. He gave up some bad/soft goals, and untimely goal, bad rebounds, and was horrible playing the puck. He needs to be much better, because there really is no quit on OTT.

That was my thought as well. Yes, he made some great saves, but he let some really weak ones in as well, similar to what got MAF pulled. TV isn't as hot a hand as he was prior.

Vokoun hasn't played this much in quite a while. I believe at some point he will need a break. Rather than wait for him to lose, I think game three offers the perfect opportunity to try MAF again. It's a game on the road away from the pressures of the home fans. If they lose, they can still go back to Vokoun for game 4 if Fleury plays badly and still wrap the series up at home in 5. If they play TV and he struggles and they lose, then they are faced with Marc going into a more pressure-packed situation of an essentially "must win" game 4 in order to keep the series on track.

I guess it depends on how much you believe the Fleury is a complete mess, if he has any redemption possible. If you do think he can contribute, game 3 might be a good option to try him.

I was thinking if we win game 3 with TV, then game 4 would be perfect for MAF. Absolutely no pressure and TV gets a rest. Remember he blew up the game after the 2nd SO.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat May 18, 2013 7:48 pm

:pop:
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 7:49 pm

PAPLine wrote:
Great58 wrote:
-Speaking of Vokoun, minus the 2 huge saves he made on breakaways, he was pretty bad last night. He gave up some bad/soft goals, and untimely goal, bad rebounds, and was horrible playing the puck. He needs to be much better, because there really is no quit on OTT.

That was my thought as well. Yes, he made some great saves, but he let some really weak ones in as well, similar to what got MAF pulled. TV isn't as hot a hand as he was prior.

Vokoun hasn't played this much in quite a while. I believe at some point he will need a break. Rather than wait for him to lose, I think game three offers the perfect opportunity to try MAF again. It's a game on the road away from the pressures of the home fans. If they lose, they can still go back to Vokoun for game 4 if Fleury plays badly and still wrap the series up at home in 5. If they play TV and he struggles and they lose, then they are faced with Marc going into a more pressure-packed situation of an essentially "must win" game 4 in order to keep the series on track.

I guess it depends on how much you believe the Fleury is a complete mess, if he has any redemption possible. If you do think he can contribute, game 3 might be a good option to try him.

I was thinking if we win game 3 with TV, then game 4 would be perfect for MAF. Absolutely no pressure and TV gets a rest. Remember he blew up the game after the 2nd SO.


If we win 5 straight with Vokoun, Bylsma should be hung from the rafters if he switches goalies. Vokoun would get plenty of rest between series. He's 36, not 80.

It's the playoffs. There is no room for experimenting or hand holding. It's all business right now.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Sat May 18, 2013 7:52 pm

lol no.

My point was that there are more than enough reasons to debate the goalie situation using this year without having to resort to the same ole retort of Fleury sucked the past 4 years. It is old and played out at this point. When people play that stupid, lazy line the counter to that is nothing. It is the wannabe trump card that shows a complete lack of thought. Any monkey can see Fleury was terrible last year. But, explain how this year that Vokoun has been pretty solid all year with a good record and comparable numbers in the regular season and superior numbers in the post season and then there is a basis for an argument.

And for a bloody fact, I have never once denounced or said anything really negative about Vokoun. I have said I think Fleury fits better, but I have also lent my support behind Vokoun. So please refrain from extrapolating thoughts that were never placed.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby bhaw on Sat May 18, 2013 7:55 pm

Rylan wrote:lol no.

My point was that there are more than enough reasons to debate the goalie situation using this year without having to resort to the same ole retort of Fleury sucked the past 4 years. It is old and played out at this point. When people play that stupid, lazy line the counter to that is nothing. It is the wannabe trump card that shows a complete lack of thought. Any monkey can see Fleury was terrible last year. But, explain how this year that Vokoun has been pretty solid all year with a good record and comparable numbers in the regular season and superior numbers in the post season and then there is a basis for an argument.

And for a bloody fact, I have never once denounced or said anything really negative about Vokoun. I have said I think Fleury fits better, but I have also lent my support behind Vokoun. So please refrain from extrapolating thoughts that were never placed.


You want people to use a logical argument but then say in another post that "stats can lie." (those are definitely your words)

So how do you expect anyone to want to put together anything logical about the current year when you've dismissed this playoff year's stats already?

I've already noted that if you don't use stats, you can see a clear difference in how they each play after the soft goals. So unless you are refuting that, I'd assume you agree that Vokoun is the defacto starter until he goes nuclear like MAF did. This would also explain why people aren't yelling to bench Vokoun. He plays better after a soft goal, and more importantly, the team hasn't lost with him yet. I'm pretty sure we'd be calling anyone yelling for Vokoun to be benched after 4 straight wins due to a soft goal or 2 an utter moron. I guess most people don't want to be called morons.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 2 vs OTT - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby PAPLine on Sat May 18, 2013 8:05 pm

columbia wrote:I'm not a fan of defensemen who can't (or won't) perform the root skills of their position, so it makes me happy to see Karlsson suck.

I have never felt that Karlsson was much of a defensive defenseman, his forte has always been scoring. And that part of his game is pretty much MIA.
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