Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby mikey287 on Tue May 21, 2013 5:46 pm

Scott wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Jokinen LHS vs. Sutter RHS. Provides much less versatility in the faceoff dot, especially in the defensive zone, where Sutter starts most of his shifts. Would be a major blunder to replace Sutter with Jokinen, even if Jokinen scored a goal...

Penguins get a major step on opposition with LHS and RHS centers that are adept faceoff takers and can handle their own end of the ice (Crosby and Sutter). No doubt part of the reason why the organization hand picked Sutter to be the guy coming back for Staal and wouldn't do the deal otherwise.


RHS or LHS...Sutter is not bad in the circle but Vitale is better regardless of being left or right hand. He is faster which is a key component of a fore check. Speed in itself is a bonus anywhere on the ice. He makes the attempt to generate some form of offense. Jokinen is miles ahead of Sutter in the offensive zone. I agree with some who said Jokinen and Vitale in and Sutter and Glass out. This would not hurt anything whatsoever for a few games.


Do people think Sutter is slow or something? He's a very good skater, especially when you compare it to the Sutter family history. I mean, no one likes or understands what Kennedy does, but he's fast...doesn't get a pass. Sutter does things that don't show up on the scoresheet and Vitale/Jokinen can do his job better? I'm not sure I understand what people are watching. Or conversely, maybe I just don't get it...

Vitale isn't anywhere near as good defensively as Sutter is, at least not at this time. And I don't think that gap will lessen over time. Probably because Vitale is like three years older than Sutter already and is a WYSIWYG type of player...

This is a very strange thread all things considered...
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby Rylan on Tue May 21, 2013 5:49 pm

TIL Joe Vitale is 27. I also learned him and I share a birth date.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby mikey287 on Tue May 21, 2013 5:50 pm

Rylan wrote:
shmenguin wrote:2 of the resident hockey geeks just mentioned his faceoff ability. I'm confused. Statistically, he is definitively "average". Or am I missing something?


Him being right handed is extremely important. Unless there is more to it than that?


I thought Sutter's faceoff percentage was up near 52%, maybe I didn't see it right. Regardless, having that RHS in the defensive zone especially is huge for right-side faceoff abilities. Hugely important for situational matching. It would be difficult to over-state that kind of importance from a coaching perspective. But I'm a faceoff nut, so maybe there's some bias...
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby columbia on Tue May 21, 2013 5:50 pm

No matter how old they are, HCDB hates younger players.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby juicebox1 on Tue May 21, 2013 5:53 pm

how is this thread still at the top of the forum every time i visit?

really great stats have been brought up, but can we stop trying to justify it for scott, please?
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby Froggy on Tue May 21, 2013 5:54 pm

columbia wrote:No matter how old they are, HCDB hates younger players.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby mikey287 on Tue May 21, 2013 5:55 pm

juicebox1 wrote:but can we stop trying to justify it for scott, please?


I'd like this too. But sometimes it's through stupid conversation that the best learning takes place. Even if the lessons aren't learned by the people that are, ahem, asking...if others can get something from it, then it's good...
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby pens2005 on Tue May 21, 2013 6:58 pm

Rylan wrote:It was Adams's stick. But yea, Sutter has been close to a lot of plays (he was on the ice for the TK goal) and has been contributing off the score sheet. He hasn't been spectacular, but he doesn't have to be. That is why the Pens have Malkin, Crosby, Iginla, Neal, and all the other scorers that are paid to score. Sutter is doing his job, and as such I could not be much happier with his play.



Well said.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Tue May 21, 2013 8:40 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:Then I would theorize that the coach views him as one of this best, if not his best, defensive zone faceoff options. But it would tell me nothing about where the shift ends and what that means.


So you would then admit that he's playing defensively more than offensively, correct?


I still have no idea what you're trying to argue, in the long run. It really just looks like you're complaining about Sutter because there's literally nothing else to complain about and the fact his name isn't "Jordan Staal".



I think we are Romanticizing Jordan Staal's playoff statistics somewhat as well. Probably because of the huge moments that he had, but he was given 73 opportunities vs. Sutters 9.
Sutter: 1G, 1A, 2P, E, 51.7% FO
Staal (Career avg stats over 9gms): 2.83G, 1.60A, 4.43P, -.19, 47% FO

So essentially, slight upgrade on offense and slight downgrade on defense. It's not like he was a dominant offensive player.



Also...

It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:
Spoiler:
Shakes wrote:I know he was getting killed in the GDT, but I though he had a strong game. Won a lot of battles and made a few nice plays, including that move and pass in OT that bounced over Cooke's (?) stick.



Agreed. I actually don't understand the complaints against him. I thought he has looked just fine, especially given the fact that he plays the hardest competition nightly and starts in the offensive zone only 25% of the time.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=63&f1=2012_p&f2=5v5&f5=PIT&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#


and then Mikey and Jesse in this thread.

mikey287 wrote:
Spoiler:
Fun fact: In these playoffs, Brandon Sutter starts only 1 out of every 4 shifts in the offensive zone.*/** :idea:

Not-so-fun opinion: He still needs to start scoring, despite the obvious role that he's been pigeonholed into on a team that doesn't so much line match as it does "situation" match. :thumbdown:

* - For comparison, Malkin starts roughly 2 out of 3 in the offensive zone. Crosby: about 1 out of 2.
** - For further comparison, out of all playoff centers (min. 5 GP) only Jay McClement (Tor: 0+0=0; -4) and Marcus Kruger (Chi: 2+1=3; +3) start off worse than Sutter does and it's not by much either.


Jesse wrote:
Spoiler:
I am going to make this really easy for everyone.

Corsi QoC

This statistic weighs the quality of competition a player faces based on head to head ice time. Corsi is the sum of shots taken (goals, posts, saves, blocks, missed shots) while a given player is on the ice minus the same for the opposition.

1. Matt Cooke - 8.765
2. Brandon Sutter - 8.380

Sutter was eclipsed by Cooke only in Game 9 of the playoffs. He held the title of toughest competition faced RESOUNDINGLY for the first 8 games of the playoffs.

Now, let's move on.

Goals Against per 60 Minutes of Even Strength.

1. Matt Cooke .49
2. Brandon Sutter .95

So, understand this: For every 60 minutes of time that Brandon Sutter is on the ice at even strength, he allows .95 goals against while consistently facing the toughest competition the opponent has to offer.

It's downright unrealistic to suggest scratching a player that has provided a phenomenal defensive presence simply because he isn't scoring enough against the other teams top lines.

That doesn't even bring into account his penalty killing and faceoff prowess. I'm discounting those completely in this discussion because the above statistics are SO DOMINANT that we can exclude the rest of the intangibles this guy has.

For a comparison:

Chris Kelly - GA/60 - 3.34
Dave Bolland - GA/60 - 5.71
Joe Pavelski - GA/60 - 2.16

There isn't a third line center anywhere left in the National Hockey League that is doing anything remotely close to what Sutter is doing in the defensive zone. Period.



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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby slappybrown on Tue May 21, 2013 9:06 pm

I am obviously on your side on this issue, but that's a pretty significant disparity offensively -- its not a "slight upgrade." I think the 9 game sample size is too small and probably unfair to Sutter, but Staal's numbers dwarf his and 2.5 goals per every 7 games (I'm eyeballing it based on the 2.83 per 9 you posted) is very impressive given that he was buried in the same fashion as Sutter (he had 35% offensive zone start and the second toughest Corsi QoC in last year's Philly series, so very similar).

He wasnt approaching his GAA/60 since Sutter's figure so far this playoffs is just insane and also the Philly series was a disaster, but Staal was logging those same types of minutes with a significant difference in offensive production. But, Staal is a level better and is/will be paid accordingly more than Sutter.
Last edited by slappybrown on Tue May 21, 2013 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby columbia on Tue May 21, 2013 9:12 pm

The Sutter complainers remind me of a groom, who is jilted at the alter, and spends the rest of his life grumbling about having to marry her bucktoothed sister.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby shmenguin on Tue May 21, 2013 9:14 pm

There's barely been any mention of staal in this thread so I don't know where that analogy is coming from
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 21, 2013 9:21 pm

shmenguin wrote:There's barely been any mention of staal in this thread so I don't know where that analogy is coming from


The majority complaint is about how Sutter isn't scoring.

Do you think these complaints would be made had we not had Jordan Staal as our 3rd line center for the past 6 years?
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby columbia on Tue May 21, 2013 9:23 pm

shmenguin wrote:There's barely been any mention of staal in this thread so I don't know where that analogy is coming from


You're the one who mentioned Staal, not me.

Oh, I get it! You're implying that it's possible to read between the lines and understand what people *really* mean.
Sheesh, I need to pick up that skill. :wink:
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue May 21, 2013 9:36 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Scott wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Jokinen LHS vs. Sutter RHS. Provides much less versatility in the faceoff dot, especially in the defensive zone, where Sutter starts most of his shifts. Would be a major blunder to replace Sutter with Jokinen, even if Jokinen scored a goal...

Penguins get a major step on opposition with LHS and RHS centers that are adept faceoff takers and can handle their own end of the ice (Crosby and Sutter). No doubt part of the reason why the organization hand picked Sutter to be the guy coming back for Staal and wouldn't do the deal otherwise.


RHS or LHS...Sutter is not bad in the circle but Vitale is better regardless of being left or right hand. He is faster which is a key component of a fore check. Speed in itself is a bonus anywhere on the ice. He makes the attempt to generate some form of offense. Jokinen is miles ahead of Sutter in the offensive zone. I agree with some who said Jokinen and Vitale in and Sutter and Glass out. This would not hurt anything whatsoever for a few games.


Do people think Sutter is slow or something? He's a very good skater, especially when you compare it to the Sutter family history. I mean, no one likes or understands what Kennedy does, but he's fast...doesn't get a pass. Sutter does things that don't show up on the scoresheet and Vitale/Jokinen can do his job better? I'm not sure I understand what people are watching. Or conversely, maybe I just don't get it...

Vitale isn't anywhere near as good defensively as Sutter is, at least not at this time. And I don't think that gap will lessen over time. Probably because Vitale is like three years older than Sutter already and is a WYSIWYG type of player...

This is a very strange thread all things considered...


I personally think people are mistaking their concern with the Pens overall "lack of pressure" from certain lines and players and directing it at Sutter. The 2nd line hasn't been all the great even strength all year. And with the 3rd and 4th lines sans TK not pushing the play at all when you watch the games, and focusing solely on defense, it just seems like we are destined to have a team break us by carrying the play directly at us for too long.

Not saying that is wrong or right but when I watch other playoff games (or remember our cup runs) I see/saw quite a bit more cycling and chances from both squads. It seems to me we score enough so this could be a master plan, but if it our stars get shut down in games we won't have a Staal/Cooke/TK line to get multiple goals off of the cycle or rush.

Just my two cents anyways.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby bhaw on Wed May 22, 2013 1:42 am

Two notes from reading the last 7 pages since yesterday:

On things not mentioned-
What is Sutter being asked to do by his coaches? Sutter has not been benched, lost ice time, or been questioned once that I have seen in 9 games. This would likely indicate that he is doing what he is being asked to do by DB and staff. I've seen at least 10 times in this thread that he's not playing as well/scoring as much in the regular season. Well, a) that happens to most guys and b) it's extremely normal and expected for a role player (like Sutter) to be given a specific role in the playoffs that is not designated in the regular season when you have different opponents from game to game. If I'm putting the pieces together, Sutter is doing exactly what is expected of him, so if you don't like it, your issue is with the wrong person. This explains away 97% of the thread.

Someone mentioned depth and how we are talked about as having superior depth-
It's not because our 3rd and 4th line are anything uber special. It's because we have a 1st line that is comprised of Crosby and 2 wingers who score multiple levels above what their skill level dictates. Dupuis and Kunitz were in the top 10 for goals scored for a good chunk of the year. Our 2nd line is comprised of Malkin (another super-human hockey player), James Neal (who scores are a menacing rate when Geno is playing), and, now, Jarome Iginla (who is significantly better than almost anyone else's 6th forward). On top of that, we have Morrow floating around in the bottom 6 with Cooke. They are 2 strong 3rd liners. The depth isn't because we have 9 forwards who score at significant clips. It's because our top 6 is basically a video game lineup, and none of this is mentioning Letang on the blue line.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby Scott on Wed May 22, 2013 3:08 am

Everyone can dissect sixteen different ways but the facts remain..

The third line has no offensive identity. Something would be marvelous but there is nothing. Actually the identity of the third line is to play the entire game with no fore check, no puck possession and sadly little to no scoring chances. More fore check, more cycle, more smart physical play would automatically generate more scoring chances for that line. Someone will say that will give the other team more scoring chances too....well Sutter already lives in the defensive zone so what is the change there?

The center for that line is Sutter. Moreover the third line gives the perception right now of three different forwards all on different pages.

This has nothing to do with Jordan Staal. People have brought him up but not I. This has to do with the overall state of the third line and the center of the third line.
I say it again, there will be more games this playoff run the opposing team or our own coaching staff holds our top two lines in check. Where are the chances going to come from? To date, nobody in the right frame of mind can say there is any evidence whatsoever that needed scoring on nights like those are going to come from the third line, centered by Sutter.

We have 9 games to date. The facts we know are that Sutter is doing a sound job defensively (something which I acknowledged from the get go) and a lousy job offensively (2 points in 9 games). Those are facts. I have serious doubts this team can win it all if the third line continues with no offensive identity.

I want Sutter to succeed. I hope he gets four hat tricks in the remaining playoffs and steals the show. As is right now though I wouldn't bet a dollar that his scoring will improve unless there is a shake up of some magnitude. It's what he has shown in these 9 games, 2 points!
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby Puck Drama on Wed May 22, 2013 3:47 am

Sutterkerovsky and Nealkerovsky both are lagging behind the great Tyler Kennedy on the score sheet.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby bh on Wed May 22, 2013 6:02 am

Is this the thread where the trolls hang out? I was told I needed to hang out here.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby sil on Wed May 22, 2013 7:04 am

mikey287 wrote:Sutter does things that don't show up on the scoresheet and Vitale/Jokinen can do his job better? I'm not sure I understand what people are watching.


Image
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby sil on Wed May 22, 2013 7:07 am

Puck Drama wrote:Sutterkerovsky and Nealkerovsky both are lagging behind the great Tyler Kennedy on the score sheet.


Awww...Tyler isn't deserving of an Eastern-Europification of his last name?
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed May 22, 2013 7:17 am

Scott wrote:Everyone can dissect sixteen different ways but the facts remain..

The third line has no offensive identity.


Dan Paillle Had 2 points last night and it was a major story that they were getting production out of the bottom of the lineup. Your bottom lines aren't scoring lines. The third is there to play good defense against other teams' better offense and the fourth is there to not screw up.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 22, 2013 7:49 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
Scott wrote:Everyone can dissect sixteen different ways but the facts remain..

The third line has no offensive identity.


Dan Paillle Had 2 points last night and it was a major story that they were getting production out of the bottom of the lineup. Your bottom lines aren't scoring lines. The third is there to play good defense against other teams' better offense and the fourth is there to not screw up.


This is what I disagree with though. I'm not bashing Sutter per say, what I'm saying is at some point in the playoffs you are going to need some forward push from your bottom lines. And these lines are not there just to play defense or not screw up. They should change momentum, forecheck and keep other teams on their heals, cycle and wear teams down. We have two lines that basically just sit back and try not to screw up right now.

At some point they ate going to need more. I can't believe any hockey fans who have watched playoffs, especially our playoff history do not think there is enough importance to that aspect of a deep run.
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed May 22, 2013 7:52 am

??? Kennedy and Morrow each have GWGs, Kennedy has another that should have been a GWG. They also have goals from Sutter and Glass. Thats not counting unlikely contributions from Orpik and Murray. What are you looking for?
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Re: Brandon Sutter...can we scratch?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 22, 2013 8:01 am

Idoit40fans wrote:??? Kennedy and Morrow each have GWGs, Kennedy has another that should have been a GWG. They also have goals from Sutter and Glass. Thats not counting unlikely contributions from Orpik and Murray. What are you looking for?


I'm not here to defend everyone else saying bench Sutter and should clarify that I have said in other posts that TK has done that role very well. I'm only saying that this notion they can sit around and play defense is completely false. To win the cup they are going to need the 3rd and 4th at points to carry the play not sit back.

Not really that Morrow getting that goal or Orpik/Murray having seeing eye goals are examples of a 3rd line wearing down other teams or playing that role.

I'm not saying that can't do it, I'm saying to win the cup at some point they are going to need more push. And yes Glass has a goal but I think that is a perfect example of what people are talking about in this thread. So what? He has sucked all playoffs and been scratched. using a goal as validation of anything makes no sense. He wouldn't revenue be playing if not for injury.
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