Pens MVP thru two rounds?

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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Rocco on Sat May 25, 2013 3:40 pm

Gaucho wrote:I guess his one bad turnover per game somehow outweighs Letang's otherwise spectacular play?


Letang would get the Conn Smythe trophy then turn it over at his own blue line.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby malkinshair on Sat May 25, 2013 5:56 pm

no name wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:Definitely Vokoun and it is not even close.



6-1 record GGA under 2, yeah can't go wrong with that vote.


Serious question for those picking Vokoun. If Bylsma had stuck with Fleury, and he had put up the exact same performances as Vokoun from game 3 vs. the Isles to this point, would anyone be calling for him to be the MVP? Or would we being giving credit to the team for the game 5 shutout, calling MAF lucky when Moulson missed the open net, and stating that we could've won with Sid in net against the inferior Sens?

Vokoun has been solid, but not special. The team as a whole has been special...they're scoring over 4 goals a game. Sid's actually a level above that right now...scary.

And if your looking for credit to go to someone for turning around the Isles series, then Bylsma deserves a nod. Switching GTs sent a message to the team, but inserting Vitale and Kennedy changed the type of team we were on the ice. Kudos to him...I honestly didn't think he had it in him to admit his 'plan' needed changing.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Gaucho on Sat May 25, 2013 6:07 pm

malkinshair wrote:If Bylsma had stuck with Fleury, and he had put up the exact same performances as Vokoun from game 3 vs. the Isles to this point, would anyone be calling for him to be the MVP?


Nope. We know by now that Flower is perfectly capable of crapping the bed. He has yet to show that he's also capable of cleaning up behind his own mess. I have lost all confidence in his ability to carry the team through the playoffs. I love the guy, but that's the way it is. I guess he'll give it another try next year, but for now Tomas is our guy and I'm just happy we have him. He's made mistakes, but at least his body language didn't scream panic in big bold letters afterwards.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby malkinshair on Sat May 25, 2013 6:32 pm

Gaucho wrote:
malkinshair wrote:If Bylsma had stuck with Fleury, and he had put up the exact same performances as Vokoun from game 3 vs. the Isles to this point, would anyone be calling for him to be the MVP?


Nope. We know by now that Flower is perfectly capable of crapping the bed. He has yet to show that he's also capable of cleaning up behind his own mess. I have lost all confidence in his ability to carry the team through the playoffs. I love the guy, but that's the way it is. I guess he'll give it another try next year, but for now Tomas is our guy and I'm just happy we have him. He's made mistakes, but at least his body language didn't scream panic in big bold letters afterwards.


So your voting for Vokoun based on performance, but not for Fleury given the same performance? That's actually comical. The MVP is the goaltender if his name is Vokoun, but not Fleury.

And the body language wasn't 'panic' in the first round, it was frustration. Whether it was frustration with himself, or the crapfest displayed in front of him, or the bad bounces, or all of the above, I guess we'll never know. This 'mentally weak' narrative is really getting old, though.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Gaucho on Sat May 25, 2013 6:54 pm

malkinshair wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
malkinshair wrote:If Bylsma had stuck with Fleury, and he had put up the exact same performances as Vokoun from game 3 vs. the Isles to this point, would anyone be calling for him to be the MVP?


Nope. We know by now that Flower is perfectly capable of crapping the bed. He has yet to show that he's also capable of cleaning up behind his own mess. I have lost all confidence in his ability to carry the team through the playoffs. I love the guy, but that's the way it is. I guess he'll give it another try next year, but for now Tomas is our guy and I'm just happy we have him. He's made mistakes, but at least his body language didn't scream panic in big bold letters afterwards.


So your voting for Vokoun based on performance, but not for Fleury given the same performance? That's actually comical. The MVP is the goaltender if his name is Vokoun, but not Fleury.

And the body language wasn't 'panic' in the first round, it was frustration. Whether it was frustration with himself, or the crapfest displayed in front of him, or the bad bounces, or all of the above, I guess we'll never know. This 'mentally weak' narrative is really getting old, though.


I'm not even sure I'm voting for Vokoun, for me it's a toss-up between Vokoun, Crosby, and Martin.

You can play the "what if"-game all day long, fact is that Vokoun provided the Pens with steady, solid goaltending while Flower did not. Nobody ever asked Flower to be spectacular, but he can't even play a single series without looking utterly clueless an downright amateurish. What is comical is that you expect me to compare Vokoun's actual performance to Flower's hypothetical (and imo unrealistic) performance if he were still our starting goalie, which, after his actual performance, would be utter insanity. I agree with you that the mentally weak narrative is getting old. Thi is the year that I gave up making excuses for Flower and his inexplicable and heartbreaking meltdowns. Not to sound melodramatic, but it's breaking my heart, because I was rooting heavily for him to succeed and prove his dounters wrong.

Didn't happen.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby littlemoonboot on Sat May 25, 2013 8:12 pm

Vokoun. I'm just not seeing how the Pens could have gotten this far with Fleury in there. It's not like the team shouldn't be held accountable for not giving Fleury a lot of help, but for whatever reason the team is more calm when Vokoun is in net, and he isn't afraid to call them out with veteran authority when they play like crap, either.

Naturally the Pens wouldn't be where they are without Sid and Geno and company, but Vokoun has been this run's quiet and steady linchpin to me. I hope it continues for him because he deserves it.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Bioshock on Sat May 25, 2013 8:33 pm

Vokoun

Easily...
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat May 25, 2013 9:10 pm

Lol @ treating Fleury the same given the same performance.

1. Starting goalie comes in and performs as expected for a good team winning. Status-quo

2. Backup goalie gets thrust into starting in the 3rd playoff series of his life and performs above and beyond expectations.

That's why Vokoun gets a nod even if Fleury had the same stats/play.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby bh on Sat May 25, 2013 10:01 pm

I hate, just HATE giving goalies MVP awards but even I would give Vokoun the MVP so far. There have been a lot of guys playing very well and doing a lot of good things. The only guy that without him we might not have made it past the Isles is Tomas. That's MVP all day every day in my book.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby malkinshair on Sat May 25, 2013 10:24 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:Lol @ treating Fleury the same given the same performance.

1. Starting goalie comes in and performs as expected for a good team winning. Status-quo

2. Backup goalie gets thrust into starting in the 3rd playoff series of his life and performs above and beyond expectations.

That's why Vokoun gets a nod even if Fleury had the same stats/play.


Again, that's assuming that the team doesn't play the same way it has played in front of Vokoun that it would've in front of Fleury. I'm not advocating putting Fleury back in at this point, but ignoring the fact that Vokoun had a much better team playing in front of him is just :face:

The backup came in and had, for whatever reason, a much more focused and efficient effort from his team in front of him. People like to say it's because the calm demeanor of Vokoun settled them down. Does this sound like a characteristic of a possible SC championship team?

It's working, so good on us...but nominating any GT the MVP when the team is scoring 4+ goals a game seems like reaching to me.

I guess what I'm saying is is that Vokoun is getting way too much credit for winning the Isles series. IMO, Vitale and Kennedy had more to do with pulling that out than Vokoun did...and my opinion would be the same whether TV or MAF was the GT.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby sniper on Sun May 26, 2013 6:50 am

I still don't understand how people are picking Vokoun on a team that averages over 4 goals per game. If you score 4 goals in the playoffs you should win! As bad as Fleury's numbers are if he played that badly in every game of the Ottawa series...the results of the series would be the same. That's right 4 to 1 Pens win. The only game that would have been closer is game 1. Vokoun won them Game 6 of the Islander series. Yes that was huge and he's played relatively well, but he's hardly the team MVP. If the opponent was producing countless scoring chances and the Pens were winning 2 to 1 and 3 to 2 games...Sure, but that's simply not the case.

The Penguins are scoring 4.28 goals per game since Vokoun took over. They are far and away out chancing their opponent in all of those games except the 6th game against the Islanders. They are going to win the majority of their games regardless of who their goalie is if that keeps up.

The more I look at the numbers the more Letang sticks out. 11 games played. 1st in ice time. 16 points which is tied for second best in the league and best on a team with Crosby and Malkin on it. +7 to lead the team. Yeah he's had defensive mistakes. Playing as much as he is he's bound to, but he's more than made up for it. He's only been a minus player in two playoff games. The game 3 win against the NYI and the game 3 loss to Ottawa, both times a minus 1. He's produced points in 8 of the 11 games.

Only 3 Defenseman in the last 12 years have produced more points in one playoff season than Letang has this year. Their names are Nick Lidstrom (18 pts in 18 games in 06-07), Chris Pronger (21 in 24 in 05-06, 18 in 23 in 09-10), and Scott Niedermayer(18 in 24 in 2002-2003) and they did it in 4 playoff series (Lidstrom had 18 in 3 series). Letang has done it in 2! He's producing offense at a level from a d-man this league simply does not see often.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby shmenguin on Sun May 26, 2013 7:04 am

We've needed B-level goaltending to get us here. While Vokoun has been great, I can't say he's been MVP.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby littlemoonboot on Sun May 26, 2013 7:20 am

The way I feel with Fleury is that even if the Pens put in a lot of goals, the bad timing of Flower's softies often hurt the Pens momentum in the game. I guess that's why I'm skeptical that the results would be the same with him.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby sniper on Sun May 26, 2013 7:39 am

littlemoonboot wrote:The way I feel with Fleury is that even if the Pens put in a lot of goals, the bad timing of Flower's softies often hurt the Pens momentum in the game. I guess that's why I'm skeptical that the results would be the same with him.


I understand why you feel that way and Fleury did give up a lot of softies at bad times. Fleury's problem is all mental. That said Vokoun has given up softies himself. First goal of game one against Ottawa comes to mind. He let several other shots go through him in that game, he just got lucky and they missed the net. I honestly didn't think Vokoun really played all that well this past series other than in game 3. Games 2 and 4 weren't real good. His numbers look similar to Fleury's in those games. The difference was Ottawa didn't carry the play to Pittsburgh so he got away with it. There were a lot less quality scoring chances given up. It seems like people are giving the MVP to Vokoun because they seem to think Fleury would just give away wins not because Vokoun is playing at an MVP level. That's not how it works or at least that's not how it should work.

If the Pens make it to the finals, Letang has a very good shot at having the 4th highest points from a defenseman in one playoff season all time. 25 points is currently 4th highest. Also I just noticed Duncan Keith had 17 points in 22 playoff games in 09-10 so you can add him to those other 3 players I listed earlier.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby littlemoonboot on Sun May 26, 2013 7:53 am

Well as long as whoever wins MVP turns out to be a Penguin, I'll like the sound of it :thumb:
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Gaucho on Sun May 26, 2013 7:56 am

littlemoonboot wrote:Well as long as whoever wins MVP turns out to be a Penguin, I'll like the sound of it :thumb:


Evgedny Markoun.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun May 26, 2013 8:01 am

malkinshair wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Lol @ treating Fleury the same given the same performance.

1. Starting goalie comes in and performs as expected for a good team winning. Status-quo

2. Backup goalie gets thrust into starting in the 3rd playoff series of his life and performs above and beyond expectations.

That's why Vokoun gets a nod even if Fleury had the same stats/play.


Again, that's assuming that the team doesn't play the same way it has played in front of Vokoun that it would've in front of Fleury. I'm not advocating putting Fleury back in at this point, but ignoring the fact that Vokoun had a much better team playing in front of him is just :face:

The backup came in and had, for whatever reason, a much more focused and efficient effort from his team in front of him. People like to say it's because the calm demeanor of Vokoun settled them down. Does this sound like a characteristic of a possible SC championship team?

It's working, so good on us...but nominating any GT the MVP when the team is scoring 4+ goals a game seems like reaching to me.

I guess what I'm saying is is that Vokoun is getting way too much credit for winning the Isles series. IMO, Vitale and Kennedy had more to do with pulling that out than Vokoun did...and my opinion would be the same whether TV or MAF was the GT.

On the other side of the coin ignoring a team in disarray with Fleury in and a team playing solid with Vokoun in is silly. The only thing (besides a few grinders) that changed personal wise was the goalie. Crap play from Fleury for the 4th straight year, great play from Vokoun when compared against his peers. The only factor that changed was goalie.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby columbia on Sun May 26, 2013 8:02 am

malkinshair wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Lol @ treating Fleury the same given the same performance.

1. Starting goalie comes in and performs as expected for a good team winning. Status-quo

2. Backup goalie gets thrust into starting in the 3rd playoff series of his life and performs above and beyond expectations.

That's why Vokoun gets a nod even if Fleury had the same stats/play.


Again, that's assuming that the team doesn't play the same way it has played in front of Vokoun that it would've in front of Fleury. I'm not advocating putting Fleury back in at this point, but ignoring the fact that Vokoun had a much better team playing in front of him is just :face:

The backup came in and had, for whatever reason, a much more focused and efficient effort from his team in front of him. People like to say it's because the calm demeanor of Vokoun settled them down. Does this sound like a characteristic of a possible SC championship team?

It's working, so good on us...but nominating any GT the MVP when the team is scoring 4+ goals a game seems like reaching to me.

I guess what I'm saying is is that Vokoun is getting way too much credit for winning the Isles series. IMO, Vitale and Kennedy had more to do with pulling that out than Vokoun did...and my opinion would be the same whether TV or MAF was the GT.


Are you Fleury's agent?
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby malkinshair on Sun May 26, 2013 9:06 am

Spoiler:
Pavel Bure wrote:
malkinshair wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Lol @ treating Fleury the same given the same performance.

1. Starting goalie comes in and performs as expected for a good team winning. Status-quo

2. Backup goalie gets thrust into starting in the 3rd playoff series of his life and performs above and beyond expectations.

That's why Vokoun gets a nod even if Fleury had the same stats/play.


Again, that's assuming that the team doesn't play the same way it has played in front of Vokoun that it would've in front of Fleury. I'm not advocating putting Fleury back in at this point, but ignoring the fact that Vokoun had a much better team playing in front of him is just :face:

The backup came in and had, for whatever reason, a much more focused and efficient effort from his team in front of him. People like to say it's because the calm demeanor of Vokoun settled them down. Does this sound like a characteristic of a possible SC championship team?

It's working, so good on us...but nominating any GT the MVP when the team is scoring 4+ goals a game seems like reaching to me.

I guess what I'm saying is is that Vokoun is getting way too much credit for winning the Isles series. IMO, Vitale and Kennedy had more to do with pulling that out than Vokoun did...and my opinion would be the same whether TV or MAF was the GT.

On the other side of the coin ignoring a team in disarray with Fleury in and a team playing solid with Vokoun in is silly. The only thing (besides a few grinders) that changed personal wise was the goalie. Crap play from Fleury for the 4th straight year, great play from Vokoun when compared against his peers. The only factor that changed was goalie.


The entire make-up of the team changed for game 5. Vitale and Kennedy added speed and aggressiveness on the forecheck...which had more of an effective than TV in game 5. We attacked from the back out...all game...and the Isles couldn't keep up. The Pens dominated that game basically from start to finish. The Isles adjusted for game 6, and probably win that game if Moulson doesn't crap the bed.

IMO, the team responded to their very well-liked and well-respected starter being benched. It wasn't Thomas Vokoun that raised their effort and battle level, it was the fact that the backup was now in. Coaches always talk about switching goalies in-game being more about sending a message to the team (cause you can't bench 20 guys). It worked...the team came out and played their best game of the series. Again, TV deserves credit for being solid, but he's not the MVP.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Rugbymuffin on Sun May 26, 2013 9:21 am

sniper wrote:How are people picking Vokoun on a team that scores 4 or more goals in almost every game?


Easy. 6-1.

Not saying you are not making good points, but the answer to your first question is easy. "Best goalie" don't mean jack in the playoffs, cause our "best goalie" is sitting on the bench. The "hottest" goalie right now is Vokoun, and while Vokoun may not be the "best" left he may be the hottest right now.

Craig Anderson is a better goalie then Vokoun, but who is playing golf right now ?

And to continue to talk goalies ? We will see how good Tukka Rask is.

As for out west ? Those are some good goalies, but again, wasn't Anderson ?

6-1, guy has to be doing something right.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 26, 2013 9:24 am

6-1 with a 1.85 GAA and .941 Save% while consistently seeing over 30 shots a night is just solid now. I shutter to think what some Fleury apologists would think of Tommy if he was just average.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 26, 2013 9:25 am

sniper wrote:How are people picking Vokoun on a team that scores 4 or more goals in almost every game?


The same way that Grant Fuhr was arguably the MVP on a couple of Edmonton's Stanley Cup winning teams.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun May 26, 2013 9:29 am

tfrizz wrote:
As for unsung hero, that has to go to Matt Cooke. He's been fantastic despite only putting up 3 points so far.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby malkinshair on Sun May 26, 2013 9:36 am

columbia wrote:
Spoiler:
malkinshair wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Lol @ treating Fleury the same given the same performance.

1. Starting goalie comes in and performs as expected for a good team winning. Status-quo

2. Backup goalie gets thrust into starting in the 3rd playoff series of his life and performs above and beyond expectations.

That's why Vokoun gets a nod even if Fleury had the same stats/play.


Again, that's assuming that the team doesn't play the same way it has played in front of Vokoun that it would've in front of Fleury. I'm not advocating putting Fleury back in at this point, but ignoring the fact that Vokoun had a much better team playing in front of him is just :face:

The backup came in and had, for whatever reason, a much more focused and efficient effort from his team in front of him. People like to say it's because the calm demeanor of Vokoun settled them down. Does this sound like a characteristic of a possible SC championship team?

It's working, so good on us...but nominating any GT the MVP when the team is scoring 4+ goals a game seems like reaching to me.

I guess what I'm saying is is that Vokoun is getting way too much credit for winning the Isles series. IMO, Vitale and Kennedy had more to do with pulling that out than Vokoun did...and my opinion would be the same whether TV or MAF was the GT.


Are you Fleury's agent?


I wish :P
No, I just don't like the personal attacks I see toward him on this board. People just like to pile on, which is completely unfair IMO. He wasn't horrible in the Isles series until game 4...but he wasn't any more 'off his game' than the team as a whole. I just don't understand how anyone can focus on the play of the goaltender while ignoring the play of the team in front of him. Vokoun's worst game since he took over was game 6...which was also the team's worst game with him in net.

I tend to think like the players, in this case. Several reporters have stated that to a man they feel bad for MAF...not because he's 'mentally weak' or a 'headcase', but because they let him down in the Isles series. They didn't play their game, and, eventually, it got to Fleury.......not the other way around. But what do they know, they just, you know, play for the team.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Getting To My Game on Sun May 26, 2013 9:39 am

malkinshair wrote:
columbia wrote:
Spoiler:
malkinshair wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Lol @ treating Fleury the same given the same performance.

1. Starting goalie comes in and performs as expected for a good team winning. Status-quo

2. Backup goalie gets thrust into starting in the 3rd playoff series of his life and performs above and beyond expectations.

That's why Vokoun gets a nod even if Fleury had the same stats/play.


Again, that's assuming that the team doesn't play the same way it has played in front of Vokoun that it would've in front of Fleury. I'm not advocating putting Fleury back in at this point, but ignoring the fact that Vokoun had a much better team playing in front of him is just :face:

The backup came in and had, for whatever reason, a much more focused and efficient effort from his team in front of him. People like to say it's because the calm demeanor of Vokoun settled them down. Does this sound like a characteristic of a possible SC championship team?

It's working, so good on us...but nominating any GT the MVP when the team is scoring 4+ goals a game seems like reaching to me.

I guess what I'm saying is is that Vokoun is getting way too much credit for winning the Isles series. IMO, Vitale and Kennedy had more to do with pulling that out than Vokoun did...and my opinion would be the same whether TV or MAF was the GT.


Are you Fleury's agent?


I wish :P
No, I just don't like the personal attacks I see toward him on this board. People just like to pile on, which is completely unfair IMO. He wasn't horrible in the Isles series until game 4...but he wasn't any more 'off his game' than the team as a whole. I just don't understand how anyone can focus on the play of the goaltender while ignoring the play of the team in front of him. Vokoun's worst game since he took over was game 6...which was also the team's worst game with him in net.

I tend to think like the players, in this case. Several reporters have stated that to a man they feel bad for MAF...not because he's 'mentally weak' or a 'headcase', but because they let him down in the Isles series. They didn't play their game, and, eventually, it got to Fleury.......not the other way around. But what do they know, they just, you know, play for the team.


He's been the worst playoff goalie by far the past 4 years. After a time, the excuses just run out. He's not a good playoff goalie, end of story. I think you're looking way too much into this dude. Tyler Kennedy being inserted into the lineup in Game 5 would have prevented Fleury from playing the puck in off his own ass anymore? I don't get it.
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