Pens MVP thru two rounds?

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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby columbia on Mon May 27, 2013 4:13 pm

Take it to bhaw's credit score thread.... :P
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby sniper on Mon May 27, 2013 7:15 pm

Getting To My Game wrote:
sniper wrote:Vokoun has been average.


1.85 GAA .941 Save%

What in God's name would be above-average or good? Honestly, does Vokoun have to pay off your mortgage for you to give him credit?


His statics against Ottawa are 1 goal against better than what the average goalie gave up against them in the regular season. He plays on a better team than the average goalie. He was average.

The point is the man has had to give up 3 goals or less to win games in the playoffs. He's done that by being average to slightly above. He is not this teams MVP. Every goalie that played 14 games or more in the regular season had a goals against average below 4. All 50 of them. Any of them would have been good enough to get wins in the Senator series. The one goalie that happens to be on the Penguins managed to give up one less goal in 5 games than what the average goalie would have given up in the regular season and he is our MVP????

I don't understand why people are giving so much credit to a goalie for having slightly better than the average statistics against a team than what the average goalie produced against them in the regular season. Shouldn't people be giving credit to some of the offensive players who lit up the best defensive team in the east to 4.28 goals per game? That makes far more sense to me. I mean Letang had 10 points in the series. That's 2 points a game from a defenseman while playing the most minutes and having the best plus minus. He had 10 points. The Senators had 11 goals. Seems like he is doing a hell of a lot to me and playing well above average. He has already scored more points than all but 4 defenseman have in any one playoff season in the last 12 seasons, yet he appears on almost nobody's list of MVP candidates. Odd. Instead lets give the MVP award to the goalie who played like every other goalie in the league against Ottawa and played one good game against the Islanders. Vokoun has been good enough. He hasn't been anything special, but before all is said and done he's going to have to be.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Gaucho on Mon May 27, 2013 7:25 pm

Is it impossible to give credit to the goalie and the defensemen and the forwards?
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby columbia on Mon May 27, 2013 7:26 pm

Gaucho wrote:Is it impossible to give credit to the goalie and the defensemen and the forwards?



Not if your an axe salesman.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby sniper on Mon May 27, 2013 7:49 pm

ScottishPenguin wrote:
You could replace any skater on this team with cardboard Orpik and we'd still be where we are...Vokoun has not been average. You can make a case for him not being MVP but to say his play has been average is demonstrably false.


As I showed earlier he gave up one less goal than the average goalie did against Ottawa in the regular season, while playing on a better team. Looks awfully average to me. And if I replaced Crosby with cardboard Orpik and gave him the same ice time this team would be in far worse shape.


If my dog wore a hat he'd be president of the Moon.

If Keven Veilleux was called up, played first line center and we won by the same scores should he be MVP?


This isn't the same as what I said at all. But to answer your question that would depend on Vellieux's production. If he was the primary reason for the wins then sure he could be MVP provided he played in enough games.

So a goalie can only have a good game if the team in front of him fails to score? Reductio ad absurdum: If Vokoun had come in and posted seven consecutive shutouts, smashing a record that's stood for 80 years in the process, it wouldn't matter because the skaters were scoring 4 goals a game?


No, if he did that then sure I'd consider him in the MVP discussion if he faced sufficient shots and scoring chances against. Let's not pretend he's come anywhere near doing that however. He's played well in 3 games and just ok in the other 4. At most you can give him credit for stealing one game and he still gave up 3 goals in that game.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you're severely undervaluing Vokoun's contribution thus far.


I think you are severely over-rating what he's done because his stats look great. Fact is the difference between him and the average goalie in the Senator series is 1 goal. He was very average in that series, but the stats still look good because Ottawa is awful offensively. I'll give the guy credit he was largely responsible for the win in game 6 of the Islander series and that was the most important win so far. Besides that though I'm just not seeing what he's done that has been so great. He's done his job. He does his job and this team is going to win more often than not and they have. He is not the primary reason they are winning though and thus should not be MVP. I don't even consider him to be in the top 3 at this point. Before all is said and done though he probably will have to be.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Getting To My Game on Mon May 27, 2013 8:51 pm

sniper wrote:The point is the man has had to give up 3 goals or less to win games in the playoffs.


Do did Fleury and he didn't do it.

End of story.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby ScottishPenguin on Mon May 27, 2013 9:20 pm

sniper wrote:As I showed earlier he gave up one less goal than the average goalie did against Ottawa in the regular season, while playing on a better team.


Two things wrong with this. Firstly, it's not a fair comparrison. Ottawa played the regular season without Spezza for almost all of it, Karlsson for most of it, and Michalek for about half of it. Those guys were their three highest scoring players in 11/12, when their production was about 0.6 goals per game higher than this year, making them the 4th highest scoring team in the league. Secondly, Vokoun may be playing on a better team, but our defence is profoundly average.

So a goalie can only have a good game if the team in front of him fails to score? Reductio ad absurdum: If Vokoun had come in and posted seven consecutive shutouts, smashing a record that's stood for 80 years in the process, it wouldn't matter because the skaters were scoring 4 goals a game?


No, if he did that then sure I'd consider him in the MVP discussion if he faced sufficient shots and scoring chances against.


Okay, so a guy can post a 420 minute shutout streak, but you would still feel the need to quibble over the number of shots he faced in that time? And even if the shots against did find favour with you, he would still only be considered for MVP.

Exactly what would a Penguins goalie have to do to be MVP?

Let's not pretend he's come anywhere near doing that however.


Why not? A minute ago you wanted to pretend that Brad Thiessen could put up a .922, 2.5 performance against the Senators. It's fun to pretend.

In any case, the longest shutout streak Vokoun managed this season was 160 minutes. Pathetic. That's not even three games.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you're severely undervaluing Vokoun's contribution thus far.


I think you are severely over-rating what he's done because his stats look great.


I will admit that I find it harder to scoff at a .941 save percentage than you apparently do. I also remember how I felt after game 4, and am keenly aware that were it not for Vokoun we probably wouldn't be here.

Fact is the difference between him and the average goalie in the Senator series is 1 goal.


That isn't a fact. That is an opinion derived from a fundamentally flawed interpretation of an unrepresentative sample.

He is not the primary reason they are winning though and thus should not be MVP. I don't even consider him to be in the top 3 at this point. Before all is said and done though he probably will have to be.


A point I think I made earlier, is that because we are scoring so many goals, it's much harder for one guy to stand out. What you can say in Vokoun's favour, is that without him, we probably wouldn't have made it into the second round. If the question is which player has been most valuable to the team? It's the goalie. Maybe there are thirty other goalies in the NHL who could have done the same thing, in which case they would also have been the most valuable player to the team.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Sarcastic on Mon May 27, 2013 9:46 pm

I don't understand sniper's logic or why he's talking like this or what the point is. Vokoun gave the team a chance to win and we did. All else is irrelevant.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Mr. Colby on Mon May 27, 2013 10:19 pm

Martin Sid and Vokoun in any order
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby ScottishPenguin on Tue May 28, 2013 12:38 am

Sarcastic wrote:I don't understand sniper's logic or why he's talking like this or what the point is. Vokoun gave the team a chance to win and we did. All else is irrelevant.


Well, the argument you can make against Vokoun is that there are maybe 20 or 30 other goalies around the league who could have stepped in and (probably) would have done enough to get us to where we are, and the playoff MVP should appear to have superpowers rather than be the guy in the right place at the right time.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 28, 2013 1:30 am

But this is about Pens' MVP so far, not the league MVP. I think the general opinion is that he provided stability for the team when it needed it most. Can you imagine if they kept Fleury in the net and he continued to play like he had? It's pretty likely Pens would be playing golf right now.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Crankshaft on Tue May 28, 2013 8:09 am

Are people to the point of vehemently hating Fleury where they can't discuss Vokoun's accomplishments without trying to tear down Fleury at this point?

Why do people get so defensive of Vokoun if someone else suggests that another player has been the MVP up to this point?
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby JoseCuervo on Tue May 28, 2013 8:19 am

I don't think Vokoun is the MVP, but he has been playing above average for sure.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue May 28, 2013 8:29 am

Vokoun is their MVP. If they went with his replacement, they would have been golfing for a couple weeks at this point.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Desiato on Tue May 28, 2013 9:05 am

If you think Vokoun's play has been exceptional, I can see why you'd consider him an MVP candidate. I happen to disagree. I think the general consensus is that he's been solid, but not even close to spectacular. Other players on the team have been dominant.

I don't think anyone should win Conn Smythe for merely doing what they're supposed to do. His importance thus far is less related to the caliber of his performance, but rather the polar nature of his position.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby bh on Tue May 28, 2013 9:25 am

Crankshaft wrote:Are people to the point of vehemently hating Fleury where they can't discuss Vokoun's accomplishments without trying to tear down Fleury at this point?

Why do people get so defensive of Vokoun if someone else suggests that another player has been the MVP up to this point?
It's not hating MAF or tearing him down. Its realizing that he was playing very bad, for whatever reason, and that starting Vokoun in game 5 very likely saved the Isles series. I like Fleury but I can't say he played all to well against the Islanders. I don't see this hate that you do anywhere in this thread.

Since then the whole team has been playing great and it's hard to pick one person's accomplishments over anothers.
Cooke, TK, Duper, Kunitz, Sid, Geno, Neal, Iggy, Martin, Eaton, Letang... They've all been great. It's pretty hard to pick one player over any other. That's why I think TV is the easy choice right now. No single person changed the direction this team was going more than him. It doesn't matter that any other goalie may have done the same.

The further we go, the more chances someone else will have to stand out.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue May 28, 2013 9:26 am

We've seen what happens when the goalie isn't "making the saves he's supposed to make". The team collapses and can't get anything going. Vokoun has been the Pens' MVP through 2 rounds.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby thepittman on Tue May 28, 2013 9:49 am

It's all about the storyline, Vokoun for MVP
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby sniper on Tue May 28, 2013 11:38 am

Letang is the MVP. He's the only guy on the team producing at a pace not seen in this league in over 20 years. 16 points in 11 games from a d-man is tied for the team lead, ahead of Crosby while leading the team in plus/minus and minutes played. Yeah he's had defensive mistakes that has lead to goals, but his point production more than makes up for it. He scored 10 points last series. The other team had 11 goals. Think about that. Only 4 other d-men have produced more points in an entire playoff season in the last 12 years than he has in 2 series. That's ridiculous production.

Vokoun hasn't played in 3/4 of the games although he's played well enough to give his team a chance to win all of the ones he did play in. He has at most stolen one game and he has also given up several soft goals. His numbers are impressive, but not nearly as impressive as Letang's and certainly not the best this league has seen in 20 years. Vokoun has come in and done his job, he hasn't been spectacular. I don't understand why we are giving the MVP to a guy who has simply done what's asked of him. He got paid $2 million to be the backup in case Fleury faltered. Fleury did, and Vokoun is now doing his job. He's not MVP.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue May 28, 2013 11:57 am

Letang doesn't even belong in the discussion.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 28, 2013 12:01 pm

Paul Martin and Sidney Crosby should really be the only 2 skaters even in the discussion.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue May 28, 2013 12:12 pm

I'd put Dupuis in the discussion at this moment.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby Sarcastic on Tue May 28, 2013 12:13 pm

Desiato wrote:If you think Vokoun's play has been exceptional, I can see why you'd consider him an MVP candidate. I happen to disagree. I think the general consensus is that he's been solid, but not even close to spectacular. Other players on the team have been dominant.

I don't think anyone should win Conn Smythe for merely doing what they're supposed to do. His importance thus far is less related to the caliber of his performance, but rather the polar nature of his position.


Again, we are talking about Pens' MVP and what he meant to the team so far and I think you could take away any forward or defenseman and likely the resulting series wins would have been the same..... yet, if you left Fleury in... (probably) :thumbdown:

So that's why I think putting Vokoun in the net was the starting point of the whole turnaround and why he's the MVP.

It doesn't matter to me. We all have different ideas, but I pick him.. that's all.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 28, 2013 12:20 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I'd put Dupuis in the discussion at this moment.


Valid point.
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Re: Pens MVP thru two rounds?

Postby America on Tue May 28, 2013 12:52 pm

TK or Croz or Duper.

There's not a clear cut MVP right now IMO.
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