'13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby GaryRissling on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:13 pm

Sarcastic wrote:Why are you guys talking about goalies. We couldn't score at all.


Honestly, it's because I read Ron Cook's lousy, idiotic article and I needed to vent. Madden also said something along those same lines and I can't for the life of me understand it.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:17 pm

GaryRissling wrote:
Rylan wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:After the game 5 win vs Ottawa, James Neal was asked about Vokoun's play. He said that with Vokoun, "you know what you're going to get every night". That says it all.

You can't go back to a goalie who has been statistically the worst playoff goalie in the league over the course of the past 4 seasons unless Vokoun's struggles are nearly as bad as Fleury's have been.


Are you a journalist? Because that is incredible inference you are pulling there. There is looking into a quote, and then there is straight up what you did.


I think the quote stands on its own quite well. That one goalie has given us a chance to win in every game in which he has started backs it up.


In a vacuum sure. Anything can stand on its own. This is just a case of a person taking a quote and running with it as if it means anything more than what is actually said. What would you expect to be said in any other case? "Honestly, I wish Fleury was in net," or "Better than that other guy," or "He sucks too," or "Its good." It was a cliched answer to a stupid question that was attempting to stir controversy.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby GaryRissling on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:28 pm

The point is that it is not a vacuum. Fleury's poor play is not something unique to this year's playoffs. I'm actually putting that quote in the context of Fluery's past 4 playoffs; as this article sums up:

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/5/8/43 ... yoffs-2013

How do these numbers compare to other goalies around the league? Here's a list of every goalie who has played at least 20 playoff games in the last four playoff years, sorted by overall cumulative save percentage:

Rk Player Team Games GA SA Saves Save %
1 Tim Thomas Bruins 32 67 1056 989 0.937
2 Henrik Lundqvist Rangers 28 58 809 751 0.928
3 Jonathan Quick Kings 36 77 1067 990 0.928
4 Jaroslav Halak Canadiens/Blues 20 46 608 562 0.924
5 Pekka Rinne Predators 28 69 818 749 0.916
6 Jimmy Howard Red Wings 32 86 987 901 0.913
7 Martin Brodeur Devils 29 67 755 688 0.911
8 Antti Niemi Blackhawks/Sharks 49 135 1460 1325 0.908
9 Brian Boucher Flyers 21 49 527 478 0.907
10 Roberto Luongo Canucks 42 112 1208 1096 0.907
11 Ilya Bryzgalov Coyotes/Flyers 22 78 721 643 0.892
12 Marc-Andre Fleury Penguins 30 94 792 698 0.881


I don't think the reporter was trying to stir up controversy. Any time someone has a good game, the reporter always asks whoever they are interviewing what they think of their teammate's performance.

That said, I'm taking Neal at his word; and in the context of the numbers above, I think it's a pretty fair assessment.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby slappybrown on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:29 pm

Rylan wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:After the game 5 win vs Ottawa, James Neal was asked about Vokoun's play. He said that with Vokoun, "you know what you're going to get every night". That says it all.

You can't go back to a goalie who has been statistically the worst playoff goalie in the league over the course of the past 4 seasons unless Vokoun's struggles are nearly as bad as Fleury's have been.


Are you a journalist? Because that is incredible inference you are pulling there. There is looking into a quote, and then there is straight up what you did.

???

Not sure what there is to interpret. Neal praised his consistency. He doesn't and shouldn't say that the alternative (MAF) is inconsistent because he'd be a bad teammate but everyone knows that.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby slappybrown on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:29 pm

Really odd argument you are making here Rylan IMO.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:35 pm

Misread it the first like 10 times I read his post lol.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:41 pm

I still hold that Fleury wasn't as bad this playoffs as people claim he was. Statistically he wasn't phenomenal, but he only had 2 goals that I would say were soft and they were in the same game. I was fine with Vokoun getting the starts. He has earned them over the past 2 series and Fleury did not play well enough in his 4 games to solidify being the starter. But Fleury wasn't the only glitch in the system those first 4 games this playoffs. But he was a major glitch in game 4.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Desiato on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:47 pm

Rylan wrote:I still hold that Fleury wasn't as bad this playoffs as people claim he was. Statistically he wasn't phenomenal, but he only had 2 goals that I would say were soft and they were in the same game. I was fine with Vokoun getting the starts. He has earned them over the past 2 series and Fleury did not play well enough in his 4 games to solidify being the starter. But Fleury wasn't the only glitch in the system those first 4 games this playoffs. But he was a major glitch in game 4.


I totally agree with you. I supported the move to start Vokoun, but I still have full confidence in MAF to bounce back--when the time is right. He's rebounded well from meltdowns before.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby GaryRissling on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:56 pm

While I agree that Fleury hasn't been as bad this year as last year (and I'd point to how well he's played this year on the pk as evidence of that); the question is which goalie will give us the best chance of winning night- in night-out? I'd say its clearly vokoun. Even if he gets pulled, he should start the next game IMO. I really think we should consider him the #1 for now.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:59 pm

Desiato wrote:
Rylan wrote:I still hold that Fleury wasn't as bad this playoffs as people claim he was. Statistically he wasn't phenomenal, but he only had 2 goals that I would say were soft and they were in the same game. I was fine with Vokoun getting the starts. He has earned them over the past 2 series and Fleury did not play well enough in his 4 games to solidify being the starter. But Fleury wasn't the only glitch in the system those first 4 games this playoffs. But he was a major glitch in game 4.


I totally agree with you. I supported the move to start Vokoun, but I still have full confidence in MAF to bounce back--when the time is right. He's rebounded well from meltdowns before.


Rylan is exactly right - people attributed far too much to some of the goals Fleury did give up... going so far to say the entire team mentally couldn't handle it and that's why the islanders took the play to them. Vokoun let a softie in during game 1 of Ottawa... but the team kept playing. It's a poor attempt to put the failure of a team on Fleury.

This Boston game brought out some hilarious excuses, things that would never fly with Fluery in net. "Oh his defense deflected it" or "Did you see how many odd man breaks they had?" (apparently someone missed the entire Islander series)

Desiato is right - and I think everyone agrees - at the time you had to go to Vokoun to spark the team, and since you don't need to switch if you are winning. Vokoun has done exactly what he's supposed to have done, but I'm worried we are going to need a higher ceiling against Boston. I hope Vokoun finds it - and steals a game for the pens, because I think that's what we are going to need.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:02 pm

This isn't time to experiment and risk getting some of those bad goals from Fleury. I counted 4 in the 2 bad games he had, not to mention the emotional letdown you could see on the team's faces. You stick with stability in the net for the moment which is Vokoun.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:05 pm

I think Vokoun can win the series for the Pens. He has gained in strength as the playoffs have gone on and looks less....rigid would be the term I use. He has certainly played well enough for the Pens to succeed. If he does in fact falter, not saying he will mind you, the Pens have Fleury who is more than capable of picking up the team. The utter discounting of him is equally as wrong as saying Vokoun can't win the cup.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:13 pm

Rylan wrote:I think Vokoun can win the series for the Pens. He has gained in strength as the playoffs have gone on and looks less....rigid would be the term I use. He has certainly played well enough for the Pens to succeed. If he does in fact falter, not saying he will mind you, the Pens have Fleury who is more than capable of picking up the team. The utter discounting of him is equally as wrong as saying Vokoun can't win the cup.


Yeah, I wouldn't mind at all going back to Fleury if Vokoun starts screwing up. Not like we'd have a choice anyway, but I wouldn't feel that uncomfortable at that point. I thought Fleury had a good year and we've seen him stand on his head before. Just the unknown scares me.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby slappybrown on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:13 pm

Its pretty hard to have faith in him Rylan.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby MayIsForHockey on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:21 pm

columbia wrote:
SolidSnake wrote:@pgshelly 1m
From the NHL: The team winning Game 1 of a conference final has won the series 70.4% of the time

Well, that's nice.


I'd like to know the % of home ice teams, that lose the first game, but win the series.

Madden just repeated this (relatively meaningless) 70.4% statistic on Pens Radio. The 70.4% is for all teams that win game 1 in the conference finals. If the home team wins game 1, they've won the series 77.4% of the time. When the road team wins game 1 of the conference finals, they've won the series 57.1% of the time.

The relevant number is 57.1%, not 70.4%. And, 57% is a relatively meaningless historical number.

http://www.whowins.com/tables/up10.html

Edit: From the same chart, if the Pens were to win games 2 & 3, the historical winning % is 82.0% - for higher-seeded teams with a 2-1 lead in the conference finals.
Last edited by MayIsForHockey on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby topshelf66 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:36 pm

If the Pens win Games 2, 3, 4, and 5, this percentage goes up to 100%. This IS historically significant.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:42 pm

Anyone else think Vokoun has the higher ceiling than Fleury, or is it just me?
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby thepittman on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:46 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:Anyone else think Vokoun has the higher ceiling than Fleury, or is it just me?


Well flower has more mobility and youth. If Vokoun were a few years younger I would agree.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:46 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:Anyone else think Vokoun has the higher ceiling than Fleury, or is it just me?


I think Vokoun has been overall the better goalie over the years. Fleury's natural talent doesn't mean so much if he either doesn't have fluid fundamentals or isn't mentally strong enough to handle some pressure.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby DelPen on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:55 pm

In the big picture it shouldn't matter, the forwards in the series and the next need to execute and play most of the game in the other teams end. If we are worrying about the defense and goaltender then we are loosing.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rylan on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:59 pm

DelPen wrote:In the big picture it shouldn't matter, the forwards in the series and the next need to execute and play most of the game in the other teams end. If we are worrying about the defense and goaltender then we are loosing.


I think defense is always worth worrying about. Backchecking and being capable of playing good hockey through all 3 zones is important. If the Pens actually play well in all 3 zones, then the person in net will be relatively irrelevant.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:59 pm

DelPen wrote:In the big picture it shouldn't matter, the forwards in the series and the next need to execute and play most of the game in the other teams end. If we are worrying about the defense and goaltender then we are loosing.


Sadly, after every loss we are most likely going to play the "what if" game with goaltenders, no matter who is in net.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:22 pm

Rylan wrote:
DelPen wrote:In the big picture it shouldn't matter, the forwards in the series and the next need to execute and play most of the game in the other teams end. If we are worrying about the defense and goaltender then we are loosing.


I think defense is always worth worrying about. Backchecking and being capable of playing good hockey through all 3 zones is important. If the Pens actually play well in all 3 zones, then the person in net will be relatively irrelevant.


Yes and no. I know you were being slightly overzealous by the comment about being irrelevant in order to get your point across, but I do agree for the most part. I've been a staunch unwavering supporter of Fleury for years up until this year's playoffs. My buddy still defends Fleury to no end and believe the Penguins simply play better in front of Vokoun.

He maybe right, but I think that part is irrelevant because if the Penguins are unwilling to play stronger in front of Fleury then that says something. You could argue that means they have less faith in Vokoun so they play tighter or you could argue they play better because they're simply more confident when Vokoun's in goal. Either way, all irrelevant if they're playing better.

Going back to your original thesis, I think it goes further than what you're stating. I think it shows the Penguins don't need Fleury or a $5M goalie if they can put together complete games on a somewhat regular basis. I'm finally of the thought that Fleury does need to be traded if possible and Shero should try to find a solid starting goalie with a lower cost.

Everyone talks about how shaky/sloppy Vokoun was in game 1 and I just don't get it. Yeah, he had some sloppy moments, but he also made some incredible saves that kept the Penguins in this game longer than they should have been. The Penguins need to get zen or do whatever they need to do to remain level headed and they could still take this series in five games.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby pcm on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:28 pm

To single out Fleury for the poor performances of this team in the playoffs is pretty revisionist. Yeah, he's got bad stats, but goalie stats are very much team stats. I mean, after the Mon series, what was Shero's assessment? That the defense needed to be rebuilt, so he went out and signed M&M. The loss to Tampa? Excused, because the team couldn't score, missing its' 2 best players. And Philly? No one really blamed Fleury for that atrociousness. People blamed the team leadership.

Sure, Fleury's had a part in all of those losses. Its no doubt that replacing him with Vokoun helped settle the team down and exorcise some of those past demons. But look at last night: The team leaders lost composure again, couldn't score, and let the game slip away from them when they were only down by a goal.

As people have mentioned, if that were Fleury, people would have blamed him for letting in the 2nd goal and killling any momentum the Pens had. But no, the fault for that lies in the hands of its leaders, not the goalie.

Pretty much every hockey analyst in the world except for the experts on LGP are saying that Boston's biggest advantage in this series is goaltending, that Fleury in the net instead of Vokoun has the distinct possibility of neutralizing that advantage.

Yet we have posters here saying this is crazy talk. Like its not even worth discussion, because in their minds, they've decided to blame Fleury for all this team's past failures, instead of looking at the whole picture. God forbid anyone look at the captain's role in this.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:41 pm

pcm wrote:To single out Fleury for the poor performances of this team in the playoffs is pretty revisionist. Yeah, he's got bad stats, but goalie stats are very much team stats. I mean, after the Mon series, what was Shero's assessment? That the defense needed to be rebuilt, so he went out and signed M&M. The loss to Tampa? Excused, because the team couldn't score, missing its' 2 best players. And Philly? No one really blamed Fleury for that atrociousness. People blamed the team leadership.

Sure, Fleury's had a part in all of those losses. Its no doubt that replacing him with Vokoun helped settle the team down and exorcise some of those past demons. But look at last night: The team leaders lost composure again, couldn't score, and let the game slip away from them when they were only down by a goal.

As people have mentioned, if that were Fleury, people would have blamed him for letting in the 2nd goal and killling any momentum the Pens had. But no, the fault for that lies in the hands of its leaders, not the goalie.

Pretty much every hockey analyst in the world except for the experts on LGP are saying that Boston's biggest advantage in this series is goaltending, that Fleury in the net instead of Vokoun has the distinct possibility of neutralizing that advantage.

Yet we have posters here saying this is crazy talk. Like its not even worth discussion, because in their minds, they've decided to blame Fleury for all this team's past failures, instead of looking at the whole picture. God forbid anyone look at the captain's role in this.


It's not so much blaming Fleury for the losses, but he's not coming up with the timely saves and letting in too many weak goals. I don't agree that Fleury would have been treated any different by critics if he was in the 3-0 loss in game 1. My argument is that might have been 5-0. Vokoun IMO is making the timely saves that Fleury just wouldn't be making.

The Penguins couldn't score in game 1 and it was only 1-0 after two periods, but I think Vokoun kept the Penguins in the game longer than they should have been.
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