'13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:46 pm

pcm wrote:To single out Fleury for the poor performances of this team in the playoffs is pretty revisionist. Yeah, he's got bad stats, but goalie stats are very much team stats. I mean, after the Mon series, what was Shero's assessment? That the defense needed to be rebuilt, so he went out and signed M&M. The loss to Tampa? Excused, because the team couldn't score, missing its' 2 best players. And Philly? No one really blamed Fleury for that atrociousness. People blamed the team leadership.

Sure, Fleury's had a part in all of those losses. Its no doubt that replacing him with Vokoun helped settle the team down and exorcise some of those past demons. But look at last night: The team leaders lost composure again, couldn't score, and let the game slip away from them when they were only down by a goal.

As people have mentioned, if that were Fleury, people would have blamed him for letting in the 2nd goal and killling any momentum the Pens had. But no, the fault for that lies in the hands of its leaders, not the goalie.

Pretty much every hockey analyst in the world except for the experts on LGP are saying that Boston's biggest advantage in this series is goaltending, that Fleury in the net instead of Vokoun has the distinct possibility of neutralizing that advantage.

Yet we have posters here saying this is crazy talk. Like its not even worth discussion, because in their minds, they've decided to blame Fleury for all this team's past failures, instead of looking at the whole picture. God forbid anyone look at the captain's role in this.


I think everything you wrote is nullified by some of the goals he allowed earlier in the playoffs. There is zero excuse and no goaltender should receive any slack for such play. He should have been pulled as he was and what is alarming is that this keeps happening every time we're in the playoffs. He is not an elite goalie, so why are some still trying to coddle the guy. He's a 'good' goalie, that's all. I say Pens can find a better one and there is absolutely no need to try to turn an already 28-and-a-half old goalie with emotional issues into some kind of cult hero.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby PensFanInDC on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:51 pm

The funny thing is that 95% of opinions in this thread will change one way or another after the game tonight.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby GaryRissling on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:51 pm

I really don't think there are many analysts (outside of Pittsburgh) who think Fleury is a top tier goalie in the league. And if he's not a top-tier goalie in the league; there can't be a huge gap between him and Vokoun even when Fluery is on form. It isn't like last year's gap between Fluery and Johnson.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby slappybrown on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:52 pm

pcm wrote:
Pretty much every hockey analyst in the world except for the experts on LGP are saying that Boston's biggest advantage in this series is goaltending, that Fleury in the net instead of Vokoun has the distinct possibility of neutralizing that advantage.

Yet we have posters here saying this is crazy talk. Like its not even worth discussion, because in their minds, they've decided to blame Fleury for all this team's past failures, instead of looking at the whole picture. God forbid anyone look at the captain's role in this.

lol, what hockey experts are those? Vokoun is and historically has been a superior goaltender in comparison to Fleury. Whatever portion of blame you wish to assign to Fleury this year or over the past 4 years of him playing sub .900 goal, that's a fact. From a purely statistical standpoint and within the context of the respective teams they have played for in their careers, Vokoun's never played with a team like this, and his performance has almost uniformly surpassed Fleury's, including this season. The idea that MAF is going to come in and put up .940 goaltending like TV has so far -- I don't see it, and I don't know of any "experts" who see it that way either.
Last edited by slappybrown on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby NashvilleCat on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:03 pm

GaryRissling wrote:I really don't think there are many analysts (outside of Pittsburgh) who think Fleury is a top tier goalie in the league. And if he's not a top-tier goalie in the league; there can't be a huge gap between him and Vokoun even when Fluery is on form. It isn't like last year's gap between Fluery and Johnson.

Vokoun's career numbers are better than Fleury's. Not by much. But they are better. If anything, over the course of his career Vokoun has been a better goaltender than MAF and I feel much more confident with him in net at this point.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Staggy on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:08 pm

Gaucho wrote:The only reason to go back to Fleury would be TK breaking a leg.


Looks like the Bruins have a new game plan!
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Desiato on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:16 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:The funny thing is that 95% of opinions in this thread will change one way or another after the game tonight.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:18 pm

Guys, I would have pulled Fleury based on his 'loser' body language alone. The facial expressions on some of our guys' faces when Fleury lets in a bad goal and then starts moping around or lays down like he was shot with a rifle isn't good for the morale. We have looked better as a team with Vokoun in net. And I remember saying the SAME DAMN THING when Johnson was playing well and there was a noticeable difference in the confidence shown by the whole team. You now what. I think Fleury may be a bigger problem than I thought, now that I think about it. That damn smiley face of his. Time to find a mental rock of an a-hole goalie.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby slappybrown on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:30 pm

Desiato wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:The funny thing is that 95% of opinions in this thread will change one way or another after the game tonight.

I don't think so. Most everyone here and elsewhere seems to think you ride Vokoun until he has a poor game. If he craters tonite, then sure, go to MAF in the hopes you catch lightning in a bottle. Its not going to change my overall opinion of MAF: he's a decent goaltender during the regular season who for whatever reason has serious issues putting it all together during the playoffs since the back-to-back Cup runs.

He's had one truly elite stretch in the playoffs in his career and that was five years ago. If we go to him, I sure hope he can replicate that. But having little faith that he can isn't being a hater; its just being rational.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Desiato on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:34 pm

If Fleury was such a big detriment to the morale of his teammates, he would have been moved--probably a long time ago.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby penmyst on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:52 pm

Holy Hell.

How is there so much talk about the goalie in the Game 1 autopsy?

If the Pens don't hit several posts early, or punch in some of their glorious scoring chances early instead of missing the broadsides of barns... nobody is talking about the goalie. At. All.

Vokoun had only given up 1 goal going into the 3rd, and it was a fluky one at that.

Again, if the Pens hadn't wasted chances and the game was 4-1 Pens... it probably is a cakewalk out with a Game 1 win.

Vokoun was not the problem.

Fleury was not the problem.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby penmyst on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:54 pm

pcm wrote:...But look at last night: The team leaders lost composure again, couldn't score, and let the game slip away from them when they were only down by a goal...


Exactly.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby RxBandit66 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:17 pm

penmyst wrote:
pcm wrote:...But look at last night: The team leaders lost composure again, couldn't score, and let the game slip away from them when they were only down by a goal...


Exactly.


And you forgot the part about where they feel the need to allow a shorthanded breakaway every game. Nothing is more deflating to a team's morale, not to mention a big boost to the other team's morale, than a shorthanded goal.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby The Snapshot on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:30 pm

Going to tonight's game again, and I expect a completely different result.

Vokoun was just ok, but that is 1000% better than what we got from Fleury in the Isles series. He was not the issue.

I've said all along that if I am angry at Fleury for anything it is that he has remained the same, inconsistent goalie his whole career. We SHOULDN'T HAVE TO HAVE any debate at all. He is the 1st overall pick. If he had progressed over his career the way that Crosby has, getting better and better each year, we would never lose. He improved for the 1st 3-4 years of his career and has plateaued there.

I wish he was a clear choice over a 36 year old goalie with limited Playoff success in his past, but he isn't. Vokoun was brought here for just this reason. Part of it was to offer quality starts to save Fleury for the Playoffs, but he was most definitely a plan B if Fleury repeated his playoff meltdowns of previous seasons. He melted, and now he sits for who knows how long.

God help us, we may NEED him again before it is through. Let's hope he has been practicing riding a white horse to save the day. He fell off the lead horse.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:00 pm

Some of you guys are funny.

Body Language? I disagree... maybe pull Vokoun next time he falls backward into the net after letting a goal trickle through. That's reaching for something if you ask me. (And no, I wouldn't pull Vokoun because of his "body language".)

That's all I see around here, a ton of Monday morning quarterbacking. Vokoun would not have survived games 2 through 4 against the islanders, I don't think too many goalies would have. The islanders outplayed the Penguins in every way, and in every part of the ice, and the penguins knew it. Putting the teams many failures from that series on the goaltending (which I might add bailed them out plenty in those first few games, enough to keep those games close at least) is pure bullcrap, especially after watching turnover after turnover, and numerous odd man break entries into our zone followed up with unlimited zone time. Boston's game 1 loss would have been blamed on Fluery by the irrational few on this board - I have no doubt of that (probably because of something like body language, or soul crushing, or whatever hopey feely stuff people can come up with), and it would be wrong to do that - just as it would be wrong to have any concern over Vokoun after game 1.

Vokoun is the man at this moment - going into game 2 - the penguins will need him. If they lose game 2, we better pray Fleury can steal 3 games at least. I know he can do it - but let's hope for all our sake that Vokoun, the penguins defense, and the penguins offense all do their jobs tonight.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby DudeMan2766 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:06 pm

The Snapshot wrote:Going to tonight's game again, and I expect a completely different result.

Vokoun was just ok, but that is 1000% better than what we got from Fleury in the Isles series. He was not the issue.

I've said all along that if I am angry at Fleury for anything it is that he has remained the same, inconsistent goalie his whole career. We SHOULDN'T HAVE TO HAVE any debate at all. He is the 1st overall pick. If he had progressed over his career the way that Crosby has, getting better and better each year, we would never lose. He improved for the 1st 3-4 years of his career and has plateaued there.



Thats always been my beef as well. I like Marc, I was never anti Fleury. But he's still giving up the same clown shoes goals he did sometimes in Junior. His stick handling hasn't improved at all. Not at all. Every single time he leaves the net its a circus and creates an opposing scoring change almost automattically. Yet anytime I or anyone brought up stuff like this, it was almost met with "YEAH HE SUCKS LETS TRADE HIM FOR PUCKS" or a picture of him in Detroit Game 7. Guys like Madden and Benz refused to even discuss potential flaws with Fleury because anyone who thinks he has imperfections is just one of the dumb always blame the QB, always blame the goalie sports fan. Now its funny those two idiots have done a complete 180 on their Fleury stance because they have no more leg to stand on. I still think Fleury is our starter next year, regardless if he ever sees another game this season, but he has no business being considered to play until/unless Vokoun blows up. He put himself in this position. Not the fans, not the team. He did.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:18 pm

DudeMan2766 wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:Going to tonight's game again, and I expect a completely different result.

Vokoun was just ok, but that is 1000% better than what we got from Fleury in the Isles series. He was not the issue.

I've said all along that if I am angry at Fleury for anything it is that he has remained the same, inconsistent goalie his whole career. We SHOULDN'T HAVE TO HAVE any debate at all. He is the 1st overall pick. If he had progressed over his career the way that Crosby has, getting better and better each year, we would never lose. He improved for the 1st 3-4 years of his career and has plateaued there.



Thats always been my beef as well. I like Marc, I was never anti Fleury. But he's still giving up the same clown shoes goals he did sometimes in Junior. His stick handling hasn't improved at all. Not at all. Every single time he leaves the net its a circus and creates an opposing scoring change almost automattically. Yet anytime I or anyone brought up stuff like this, it was almost met with "YEAH HE SUCKS LETS TRADE HIM FOR PUCKS" or a picture of him in Detroit Game 7. Guys like Madden and Benz refused to even discuss potential flaws with Fleury because anyone who thinks he has imperfections is just one of the dumb always blame the QB, always blame the goalie sports fan. Now its funny those two idiots have done a complete 180 on their Fleury stance because they have no more leg to stand on. I still think Fleury is our starter next year, regardless if he ever sees another game this season, but he has no business being considered to play until/unless Vokoun blows up. He put himself in this position. Not the fans, not the team. He did.


And that comes down to coaching. With very few exceptions, you can't/don't learn to stop doing that stuff on your own - someone has to teach you how.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:22 pm

For the love of all things frozen and vulcanized rubber PLEASE win tonight, Pens.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:37 pm

DropEmJayBird wrote:Vokoun is the man at this moment.


Thanks for agreeing. Yes, he has outplayed Fleury.

If they lose game 2, we better pray Fleury can steal 3 games at least. I know he can do it.


You know based on what? I think you meant 'hope'.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby PghSkins on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:46 pm

This game can't start soon enough.

They had better win- I dont think I can handle another Fleury is the savior/antichrist discussion after another game he doesn't play in.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:49 pm

Lt. Dish wrote:For the love of all things frozen and vulcanized rubber PLEASE win tonight, Pens.


They will, I promise.
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Re: '13 Playoffs Game 1 vs Bos - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Fire0nice228 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:20 pm

penmyst wrote:Holy Hell.

How is there so much talk about the goalie in the Game 1 autopsy?

If the Pens don't hit several posts early, or punch in some of their glorious scoring chances early instead of missing the broadsides of barns... nobody is talking about the goalie. At. All.

Vokoun had only given up 1 goal going into the 3rd, and it was a fluky one at that.

Again, if the Pens hadn't wasted chances and the game was 4-1 Pens... it probably is a cakewalk out with a Game 1 win.

Vokoun was not the problem.

Fleury was not the problem.



This. Pens had 3 posts , the Malkin near miss at the end of the first, the Kunitz whiff while all alone in the slot in the first.. 5 glorious chances that they didn't cash on. In the third they started playing looser and gave up more chances..
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