Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:41 am

Yep, its a horrible argument.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 52,352
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby farnham16 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:42 am

Defence21 wrote:
farnham16 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Farnham, he was playing his normal position in Calgary. He is playing the same way now he was when I saw him, which is to say not well.

He is not being slotted incorrectly. He just doesn't have much left in him. It's not Bylsma's fault Iginla is a shell of his former self. Playing on a different wing isn't going to make Iginla suddenly have the legs of a 25 year old.


I don't think how he was playing in Calgary is telling because Calgary was just awful this year. He had no help. Anyone would be awful there.

In Pittsburgh, he's playing around the top talent in the league. I just can't buy that him playing LW isn't effecting his game.

And I don't think the points are correctly telling the story for him, he hasn't been effective at all 5 on 5. The one area he was been effective at is one the PP, but Bylsma removed him from that.

I absolutely despise this argument. "How can a good player look good on a bad team?" It's the same as, "How can a skilled prospect prove himself playing on a fourth line with scrubs?"

Let me explain this: Good/great players find a well to overcome their surroundings. In the case of Iginla, he is in the downswing of his career. No longer is he a player who can or should be expected to carry a team. He didn't appear to be heads and shoulders above his teammates in Calgary because he no longer is. To further demonstrate my point, how did Crosby look so amazing in his rookie year despite the Penguins crapping the bed and being terrible? How did Beau Bennett stand out on a fourth line this year, while Eric Tangradi did not? True talent shows regardless of the surroundings. Unfortunately, Iginla's true talent has diminished with age, and he is now nothing more than a complementary player. None of this has anything to do with linemates.

That said, I'll agree 100% that he is being misused as a left winger. He should be playing on the right side of the ice to best maximize his skills and to increase his comfort level.


Look, I'm not saying Iginla will go back to being the best power forward in the world if the Pens move him to RW. I realize he isn't as good as he used to be. But there is no doubt he will be more comfortable and more effective if Bylsma moves him to RW. That's all I'm trying to say.
farnham16
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,399
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Trying to get to my game

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby nhl94 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:56 am

Idoit40fans wrote:Yep, its a horrible argument.


Maybe it's not to the same degree of comparison, but it's still a valid analogy...would you suddenly tell a baseball HOF, who batted right-handed all his life, start hitting on the left side? How do you think he will feel and perform? I agree these are paid athletes, but after all they are human (except Malkin can be a monster sometimes) and they need time to adjust and that time isn't one year if you been playing your whole life in a different position. We aren't saying we would suddenly start winning if we make Iggy play RW, but I'm sure he will be more comfortable and at least give us his better side. AND if you say he doesn't have much left in him regardless because of his age, then wouldn't you want to make the most out of him and make him play where he ALWAYS been? Wouldn't that be a better logic and reason, instead of whining?
nhl94
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 2:27 pm
Location: atlanta

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:04 am

The argument just got worse. What you would do is move a baseball hall of famer who played short stop their whole career to 3rd base see (Cal Ripken Jr) or a perennial gold glover/hall of famer from center to corner outfield. (see Ken Griffey Jr) Or a sure hall of famer from 3rd base to outfield and then back Chipper Jones. How about John Smoltz to closer and back to starter? Pete Rose was playing first at the end of his career.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 52,352
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby pfim on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:05 am

He is on the downside of his career, clogs up the line he plays on and has been a defensive liability. You don't change your lineup for a guy like this. He needs to fit in, not the other way around.

I really don't have a problem with him getting a shot with Crosby now on the right side because 9-87-14 hasn't been producing. But you don't break up that line for Iginla just because the guy shows up.
pfim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,789
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:35 am
Location: Sitting in front of my computer

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby RxBandit66 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:11 am

Idoit40fans wrote:The argument just got worse. What you would do is move a baseball hall of famer who played short stop their whole career to 3rd base see (Cal Ripken Jr) or a perennial gold glover/hall of famer from center to corner outfield. (see Ken Griffey Jr) Or a sure hall of famer from 3rd base to outfield and then back Chipper Jones. How about John Smoltz to closer and back to starter? Pete Rose was playing first at the end of his career.


Because Bylsma is arrogant enough to think he can squeeze blood from a rock (although Iggy does have 12 points in 13 games, he looks uncomfortable there). Also Bylsma feels the need to cater to every one of Crosby's demands. I've never seen two superstars (Sid & Geno) who need conditions to be so perfect for them to be happy and productive. Hell, Mario had 199 points on a line with Rob Brown and the Bibster for crying out loud.
RxBandit66
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,815
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Kittanning

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby skullman80 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:16 am

Iginla looks like crap right now. He looks like he is skating in mud, and doens't want to try and win any battles. I don't think that comes from just playing out of position. I didn't expect the Iggy of 2004 or anything, but right now he looks bad out there.
skullman80
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,052
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: New Kensington, PA

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby nhl94 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:45 am

Idoit40fans wrote:The argument just got worse. What you would do is move a baseball hall of famer who played short stop their whole career to 3rd base see (Cal Ripken Jr) or a perennial gold glover/hall of famer from center to corner outfield. (see Ken Griffey Jr) Or a sure hall of famer from 3rd base to outfield and then back Chipper Jones. How about John Smoltz to closer and back to starter? Pete Rose was playing first at the end of his career.


I hope you do realize hockey is a far tougher and more complex sport in terms of skill sets than baseball right? I don't think you should be watching hockey if you are comparing like this. Do you even realize your comparison involves mainly catching oppose to shooting? How about shooting backhand wrist shots oppose to slap shots and normal wrist shots, have you thought about this?

Don't lie but have you even played hockey or any sports that involved shooting for that matter?
Last edited by nhl94 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
nhl94
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 2:27 pm
Location: atlanta

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Defence21 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:45 am

farnham16 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
farnham16 wrote:I don't think how he was playing in Calgary is telling because Calgary was just awful this year. He had no help. Anyone would be awful there.

In Pittsburgh, he's playing around the top talent in the league. I just can't buy that him playing LW isn't effecting his game.

And I don't think the points are correctly telling the story for him, he hasn't been effective at all 5 on 5. The one area he was been effective at is one the PP, but Bylsma removed him from that.

I absolutely despise this argument. "How can a good player look good on a bad team?" It's the same as, "How can a skilled prospect prove himself playing on a fourth line with scrubs?"

Let me explain this: Good/great players find a well to overcome their surroundings. In the case of Iginla, he is in the downswing of his career. No longer is he a player who can or should be expected to carry a team. He didn't appear to be heads and shoulders above his teammates in Calgary because he no longer is. To further demonstrate my point, how did Crosby look so amazing in his rookie year despite the Penguins crapping the bed and being terrible? How did Beau Bennett stand out on a fourth line this year, while Eric Tangradi did not? True talent shows regardless of the surroundings. Unfortunately, Iginla's true talent has diminished with age, and he is now nothing more than a complementary player. None of this has anything to do with linemates.

That said, I'll agree 100% that he is being misused as a left winger. He should be playing on the right side of the ice to best maximize his skills and to increase his comfort level.


Look, I'm not saying Iginla will go back to being the best power forward in the world if the Pens move him to RW. I realize he isn't as good as he used to be. But there is no doubt he will be more comfortable and more effective if Bylsma moves him to RW. That's all I'm trying to say.

I agree, and you'll see that at the end of my last response. Iginla needs to be put on the right wing to maximize his effectiveness.
Defence21
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,839
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Defence21 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:50 am

nhl94 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Yep, its a horrible argument.


Maybe it's not to the same degree of comparison, but it's still a valid analogy...would you suddenly tell a baseball HOF, who batted right-handed all his life, start hitting on the left side? How do you think he will feel and perform? I agree these are paid athletes, but after all they are human (except Malkin can be a monster sometimes) and they need time to adjust and that time isn't one year if you been playing your whole life in a different position. We aren't saying we would suddenly start winning if we make Iggy play RW, but I'm sure he will be more comfortable and at least give us his better side. AND if you say he doesn't have much left in him regardless because of his age, then wouldn't you want to make the most out of him and make him play where he ALWAYS been? Wouldn't that be a better logic and reason, instead of whining?

I really don't think there are a whole lot of people who disagree with the fact that Iginla should be playing RW. So you're kind of arguing against yourself.

That said, your analogy is terrible. If you want to make a comparison to a player switching positions, use it by comparing a player switching positions. Don't say it's akin to a player changing the method in which he plays the entire game. Whether at RW/LW/C/D, the game of hockey remains the game of hockey. It might not come as naturally to a player to switch positions, but the basics are the same. Take a baseball player and switch the side of the plate he hits from and you're changing the entire game. That comparison would be much more logical if Bylsma was forcing Iginla to be a lefty. He's not.

And, if you think hockey is so much more complex than baseball, you certainly don't watch enough baseball to be making that comment. Switching positions in any sport is difficult. Just because you are a hockey fan doesn't mean it's harder in hockey.
Defence21
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,839
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:58 am

nhl94 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:The argument just got worse. What you would do is move a baseball hall of famer who played short stop their whole career to 3rd base see (Cal Ripken Jr) or a perennial gold glover/hall of famer from center to corner outfield. (see Ken Griffey Jr) Or a sure hall of famer from 3rd base to outfield and then back Chipper Jones. How about John Smoltz to closer and back to starter? Pete Rose was playing first at the end of his career.


I hope you do realize hockey is a far tougher and more complex sport in terms of skill sets than baseball right? I don't think you should be watching hockey if you are comparing like this. Do you even realize your comparison involves mainly catching oppose to shooting? How about shooting backhand wrist shots oppose to slap shots and normal wrist shots, have you thought about this?

Don't lie but have you even played hockey or any sports that involved shooting for that matter?


...are you a joke account? I've played 2nd, 3rd, SS, and all outfield positions in baseball and have played all skater positions in hockey. The difference between baseball and hockey is that in hockey, no matter which skating position, you can really end up anywhere on the ice on any given possession. That means that not only will you be back on the side you're used to, but you will have already spent significant amounts of time every game you have played prior playing in the "new" position that you're playing. In baseball, you're moving to a new position and reading slice of the ball and its trajectory in a completely different way than you have before, and there is no escaping it.
Last edited by Idoit40fans on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 52,352
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:02 am

How dare you talk about the greatest hockey game of all time like that.
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 56,331
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby ScottishPenguin on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:03 am

Defence21 wrote:And, if you think hockey is so much more complex than baseball, you certainly don't watch enough baseball to be making that comment.


Well, I don't watch baseball, so indulge me. Please explain how baseball is as complex a sport as hockey.
ScottishPenguin
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:39 pm

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby MayIsForHockey on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:06 am

I'm wondering if hockey is more or less complex than baseball on Xbox/Playstation.
MayIsForHockey
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:19 am

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:18 am

On video games, hockey is way less complex. :pop: Video game hockey = sort by speed attribute and that is the real player rating.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 52,352
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby shmenguin on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:24 am

seems like moving from infield to outfield in baseball is significantly more complex than moving from LW to RW in hockey.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,535
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby slipshod on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:55 am

Switching in baseball is not a good analogy because the pace of the game and the fact that in every example given, they went to a relatively easier position to play. Short stop to 3rd? Oh my god how did he ever adapt to that? Center to left? Come on. Pitching starter vs. reliever is still pitching.

In hockey, each side has areas of responsibility and it is moving so quickly, one lapse can result in an odd man break the other way. If you are out there thinking instead of just playing your position (as it looks like Iginla is) it can mess up the whole line. A crisp attack sequence can be turned into just a nothing play that everyone forgets about if one player isn't clicking at full speed.
slipshod
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:17 am

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Defence21 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:01 am

ScottishPenguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:And, if you think hockey is so much more complex than baseball, you certainly don't watch enough baseball to be making that comment.


Well, I don't watch baseball, so indulge me. Please explain how baseball is as complex a sport as hockey.

In hockey you're receiving passes, playing the boards, and shooting from different perspectives at different positions. Depending on the way you carry your stick, moving from left to right (or vice versa) wing can be tricky to adjust to. The exact same is the case in baseball. If you're a third baseman moving to shortstop, your range better increase significantly. No longer can you rely on doing your primary fielding to your right, but now you're fielding an area that spans second to third base, must know how to cover the bag and tag players appropriately, must be able to turn and throw immediately after fielding, and the list goes on. Oh, and since you don't watch baseball, you'll be interested to know that in this sport, you are charged with hitting a small ball coming at you at 90-100 MPH with a thin piece of wood. Oh, and the ball isn't coming where you want it to. It's dipping, diving, curving, changing speeds, etc. Try shooting a one-timer with similar type passes.

I'm not saying baseball or hockey are more complex than one another, but anyone suggesting baseball is not complex really shouldn't be making that comment in the first place.
Defence21
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,839
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Defence21 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:04 am

slipshod wrote:Switching in baseball is not a good analogy because the pace of the game and the fact that in every example given, they went to a relatively easier position to play. Short stop to 3rd? Oh my god how did he ever adapt to that? Center to left? Come on. Pitching starter vs. reliever is still pitching.

In hockey, each side has areas of responsibility and it is moving so quickly, one lapse can result in an odd man break the other way. If you are out there thinking instead of just playing your position (as it looks like Iginla is) it can mess up the whole line. A crisp attack sequence can be turned into just a nothing play that everyone forgets about if one player isn't clicking at full speed.

The point is that those players switched positions because there were better players ahead of them on the depth chart at their original positions. At this point in his career, one can argue that Neal is higher on the depth chart at RW than Iginla, whose game is declining. Iginla moves to left wing and takes a less prominent, secondary role.

I'm not saying I agree with Iginla on the left, just suggesting that the analogy makes sense if you try to understand it a bit.
Defence21
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,839
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby DelPen on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:07 am

Idoit40fans wrote:The argument just got worse. What you would do is move a baseball hall of famer who played short stop their whole career to 3rd base see (Cal Ripken Jr) or a perennial gold glover/hall of famer from center to corner outfield. (see Ken Griffey Jr) Or a sure hall of famer from 3rd base to outfield and then back Chipper Jones. How about John Smoltz to closer and back to starter? Pete Rose was playing first at the end of his career.


I see this more like A-Rod and Jeter. There's some difference to 3rd base and SS but also similiarites. Same can be said for wings in hockey. Ignila can play LW fine, but maybe he's just better as a RW or just doesn't click with malkin or Neal?

Whatever the case he's garbage at ES on that line, move him to the 3rd and put Bennett up and maybe then we can roll 3 lines like the Bruins having Cooke-Vitale-Kennedy out there with Morrow-Sutter-Iginla.
DelPen
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 33,554
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Lake Wylie, SC

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby nhl94 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:20 am

Idoit40fans wrote:On video games, hockey is way less complex. :pop: Video game hockey = sort by speed attribute and that is the real player rating.


haha, i was just intrigued how you countered my argument by comparing defense in baseball where you have zero chance to score/hit oppose to hockey where you can do numerous things while playing (passing, shooting, checking, etc)...didn't quite understood that.

Ok, so I assume majority of people here played one or more sports and in various positions, but were you trained professionally in a specific position where your career and money are in stake?
nhl94
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 2:27 pm
Location: atlanta

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby headh on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:23 am

The guy is producing at nearly a point per game pace.

comparing one sport to another is folly

Coach should be able to win with this exact roster.....bottom line

Coach getting embarrassed with this exact roster is grounds for termination.....yesterday
headh
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:07 am

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby nhl94 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:25 am

Defence21 wrote:
ScottishPenguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:And, if you think hockey is so much more complex than baseball, you certainly don't watch enough baseball to be making that comment.


Well, I don't watch baseball, so indulge me. Please explain how baseball is as complex a sport as hockey.

In hockey you're receiving passes, playing the boards, and shooting from different perspectives at different positions. Depending on the way you carry your stick, moving from left to right (or vice versa) wing can be tricky to adjust to. The exact same is the case in baseball. If you're a third baseman moving to shortstop, your range better increase significantly. No longer can you rely on doing your primary fielding to your right, but now you're fielding an area that spans second to third base, must know how to cover the bag and tag players appropriately, must be able to turn and throw immediately after fielding, and the list goes on. Oh, and since you don't watch baseball, you'll be interested to know that in this sport, you are charged with hitting a small ball coming at you at 90-100 MPH with a thin piece of wood. Oh, and the ball isn't coming where you want it to. It's dipping, diving, curving, changing speeds, etc. Try shooting a one-timer with similar type passes.

I'm not saying baseball or hockey are more complex than one another, but anyone suggesting baseball is not complex really shouldn't be making that comment in the first place.


can you please tell me how you can get a RBI while playing defense in baseball?

anyone?

Hockey is a sport where you can play defense and offense simultaneously. I'm rather surprised that no one concluded that from my arguments, especially on a hockey forum lol...
nhl94
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 2:27 pm
Location: atlanta

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:25 am

slipshod wrote:I've never played baseball beyond Elementary school.


Gotcha.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 52,352
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Bylsma can't win with this roster?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:28 am

nhl94 wrote:can you please tell me how you can get a RBI while playing defense in baseball?


you go down 0-2 in the count with the bases loaded, foul 3 pitches off, take a ball, foul 2 pitches off, take a ball, take another ball, foul a pitch off, ball 4, run scores, RBI because you protected the plate. You weren't playing a defensive position at the time but you were definitely playing defensively.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 52,352
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Great58 and 3 guests

e-mail