From Conn Smythe to con man

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby since1970 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:26 am

Thanks Jesse, I've said he was getting shutdown due to their defense, has anyone seen Lebron, Kobe, or any great athlete get shutdown, they look exactly the same deer-eyed and confused. There's nothing to see here other than great defense on a great talent. This why defense wins chanpionships. The Bruins as a team have eliminated the best player in the game, and none of his team mates have stepped up.
since1970
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 711
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:06 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby Kraftster on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:27 am

If it is really about Bergeron, then I guess Crosby gave up after two games. That's the only way to explain last night's effort.
Kraftster
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,876
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:25 am
Location: Frolik

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby sil on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:35 am

It reminds me very much of watching Sid play against the Wings in 2008 and 2009. He's the pens captain and best player, and sometimes that means having to be the target of the other team and absorbing their best defensive players/play. It takes him out of the game for the most part offensively, but it creates bigger oppertunities for the other lines. Malkin, Neal, et al have had many good oppertunities in this series, the former especially...but I think you have to add to Jesse's post that both Patrice Bergeron and Tuuka Rask happened.

The pens created a lot of sustained offensive pressure both last night and in game one...and only ONE GOAL to show for it in both of those games, and it took a pass that went through five player's sticks to do it. Hard not to give credit where it's due...and it's due for both Bergeron and Rask. Good for them...bad for the penguins.
sil
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,860
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:05 pm
Location: the Juice Case manufacturing plant

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby Nizzy on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:37 am

Jesse wrote:Patrice Bergeron happened.


Came to say this...

Bergeron probably has close to 90 points per season talent. However he focuses on defense. He will be in Sochi, shutting down the other countries number 1 forwards. He might even be better than Zetterberg from 08-09.
Nizzy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,596
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:30 pm
Location: Steel City

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:09 pm

if you can sick bergeron on crosby to shut him down, then what's the point of having crosby?
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,518
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby thebear on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:10 pm

Last night he was tremendous faceoff numbers. he was there . he skated fast enough to cover the slot a few times to save open goals.
thebear
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 8:47 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby Henry Hank on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:21 pm

Sid is human. He can be shutdown. He's still the best player in the NHL. Even Mario had his human moments.

I actually thought Crosby was great last night. Great on faceoffs, great defensively. Awesome effort. Had a few good looks but he's been shut down just as the rest of the team has.
Henry Hank
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,480
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:25 pm

shmenguin wrote:if you can sick bergeron on crosby to shut him down, then what's the point of having crosby?


I can understand star players being shut down at even strength, because realistically, teams are allowed to hook, slash, interfere, etc. at will in the playoffs and never get called.

But on the power play, which I keep coming back to, the Pens need to score at least 20% of the time with this much talent. This is why they need to go with a more defensive oriented system next season and work tirelessly on perfecting their man-advantage. If they were tighter defensively and better on the power play, they beat Tampa in 2011, Montreal in 2010, Philly last year, and are up 2-1 in this series now.

To me, the answer is simplified if they fire the whole coaching staff, get rid of the dead weight on the roster, get a bit younger and faster in the offseason, and focus on defense and special teams.

The grand irony of Bylsma's one-trick-pony system is that it creates exactly the opposite of what it intends. The focus of the system is for the defense to quickly get the puck up ice to the forwards to create chances off the rush. Teams simply plan for this by packing it in around the goal, challenge the Pens at the blue line, and force turnovers, which creates the odd man breaks that Bylsma's system is supposed to create. He should be fired for his refusal to adapt and adjust, and also for his arrogance and misuse of world class talent like Letang and Iginla. Putting Iggy on the third line was almost a defiant slap in the face to both Iggy and Shero, as if Bylsma was stating "I never wanted this guy here to begin with, so take that!"

And just like in 2011, when his team languished against Tampa in a 1-0 game late on the power play as Mark Letestu fumbled the puck clumsily in the offensive zone with 400+ career goal scorer Kovalev on the bench, the Pens lose in OT with Engelland on the ice defending Boston's top players.
RxBandit66
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,814
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Kittanning

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby canaan on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:35 pm

pfim wrote:
canaan wrote:if kunitz doesnt whiff on that centering pass on the one PP, they win that game. its a cooperative bedwetting. shameful really. this is what happens when you play cupcakes and then are matched against a galvanized playoff-built squad that has built confidence through their first two rounds.


I don't know, perhaps he should have done better, but that was a terrible pass to a left-shooting player.

i dont disagree with you. its just one of those instances where a little bit of puck luck gets that done.
canaan
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 38,777
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Fritos. On. My. Sub.

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:50 pm

Henry Hank wrote:Sid is human. He can be shutdown. He's still the best player in the NHL. Even Mario had his human moments.

I actually thought Crosby was great last night. Great on faceoffs, great defensively. Awesome effort. Had a few good looks but he's been shut down just as the rest of the team has.


i don't know, man...you can't have your best player be completely neutered on offense for an extended stretch. if the great bergeron is hounding him at even strength, he needs to buckle down on the power play. that didn't happen. and i imagine he's had plenty of shifts without bergeron all over him, and has he looked "great" on any of them besides the helmet shift? no.

and faceoffs are whatever. wins a bunch one night. loses a bunch on another. in the end, he winds up at 55% or so.

he gets a participation trophy like the rest of the guys last night. that's not at all good enough.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,518
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby brwi on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:53 pm

Nizzy wrote:
Jesse wrote:Patrice Bergeron happened.


Came to say this...

Bergeron probably has close to 90 points per season talent. However he focuses on defense. He will be in Sochi, shutting down the other countries number 1 forwards. He might even be better than Zetterberg from 08-09.


Everyone always yells "Datsyuk" when you talk about shutdown forwards on the Wings back then, but I don't think anyone played two-way hockey better at that time than Zetterberg.
brwi
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,129
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:36 am

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby canaan on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:54 pm

its hard to focus on playing past the opposing defensemen when you're not sure if your own defensemen are going to end up kamikaze pinching at will. the "defensive activation" has been a detriment to this team's ability to acquire and maintain forward-centric possession time in the opposition's end.
canaan
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 38,777
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Fritos. On. My. Sub.

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby Henry Hank on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:54 pm

Bergeron is legitimately great, though. When he's been shut down by the Red Wings and Bruins, it's been by Selke-calibre forwards.

I'm not really giving Sid a pass, just saying that he is human. That's been obvious for a while now. It was obvious when Montreal shut him down in 2010. It was obvious when he had a temper tantrum last year against Philly. Again though it's unfair to lump everything on him. Malkin is supposed to be every bit as good as Crosby and he's also been a zero this series.

Agree on the PP. That's where these guys have really lost these games.
Henry Hank
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,480
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:57 pm

Henry Hank wrote:Bergeron is legitimately great, though. When he's been shut down by the Red Wings and Bruins, it's been by Selke-calibre forwards.


that's true, but then you have to question how this offensively top-heavy team is constructed. and DUN DUN DUNNNNN just how much we're missing staal right now. our bottom 6 had no chance of picking up the slack with the personnel in the lineup.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,518
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby meow on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:57 pm

Image
meow
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,186
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby canaan on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:58 pm

the team relies on and is too affected by what happens with the man advantage. their gameplan doesnt have the adequate focus of scoring at even strength. its just bad. the goal of the process of having puck possession in the offensive end shouldnt be to draw penalties and rely on the man advantage--it should be on scoring goals. the cycling to draw penalties is more important than the cycling to make space and beat the opposition to the net.
canaan
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 38,777
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Fritos. On. My. Sub.

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby Eismann on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:58 pm

columbia wrote:I assume that he has an undisclosed injury and has been playing a bit scared re: his jaw.
Eismann
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,457
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:14 am
Location: Less obnoxious, brainless rehab addict chick

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby pens2005 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:59 pm

since1970 wrote:....remember there are 5 guys out on the ice whose sole purpose is to shut him down, and with his linemates doing squat to help it isn't that hard a task, as great as Sid is he can be shut down by a 5 man unit smothering him, if Dupuis or Kunitz were anything close to playing like they did in the regular season we wouldn't be talking about this, so let's give Boston credit, they shut him down and no one on the rest of the roster stepped up........


And since Bylsma let's Sidney decide who he plays with, they won't even try him with anyone else.

DB is such a joke. He said in his post-game presser that he would never tell a player how to play when asked a question about a players performance (I forget which player).

Between optional practices and refusin to dictate anything to his squad, he's really lost this team in a round about way.
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,236
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:54 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby pens2005 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:01 pm

shmenguin wrote:if you can sick bergeron on crosby to shut him down, then what's the point of having crosby?


And if you don't have to sick anyone on Malkin and he still ends up with zero points, what's the point of having Malkin?
pens2005
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,236
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:54 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby Henry Hank on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:07 pm

pens2005 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:if you can sick bergeron on crosby to shut him down, then what's the point of having crosby?


And if you don't have to sick anyone on Malkin and he still ends up with zero points, what's the point of having Malkin?


That's the thing, Malkin is the one that needs to be picking up the slack if the other team is choosing to play shutdown on Crosby. They do miss Staal on the third line, too. Malkin produced in the '09 Cup Finals and Staal picked up whatever else they needed. Crosby's getting shut down now, Malkin is also a zero, and the bottom six on top of that is not chipping in. PP also has been a non-factor. Pretty easy to see why they're losing.
Henry Hank
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,480
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:11 pm

Bathgate wrote:It's highly likely that a new injury and/or issues related to the broken jaw have caught up with him. Otherwise, his bumbling play makes no sense. It looks like injuries to Crosby have cost us another Cup chance, possibly for the third year in a row.


Maybe its just the Bruins D > Crosby
thehockeyguru
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,214
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:15 pm

so we should just accept that when crosby plays a good defensive team with a selke caliber matchup, he's not going to be productive at even strength? i'm not buying it. if we squeak by boston and play chicago in the finals, is it another series of accepted futility because of how good toews is in his own end?
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,518
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby cheesesteakwithegg on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:16 pm

There has to be some sort of lower body injury Sid is dealing with. His speed / burst just isnt there. Couple that with a strong Boston D and a matchup with Bergeron, Sid looks pretty ordinary.
cheesesteakwithegg
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,507
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:53 am

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:18 pm

shmenguin wrote:so we should just accept that when crosby plays a good defensive team with a selke caliber matchup, he's not going to be productive at even strength?


Yes
thehockeyguru
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,214
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: From Conn Smythe to con man

Postby CERV96 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:32 pm

Henry Hank wrote:Sid is human. He can be shutdown. He's still the best player in the NHL. Even Mario had his human moments.

I actually thought Crosby was great last night. Great on faceoffs, great defensively. Awesome effort. Had a few good looks but he's been shut down just as the rest of the team has.


This and what Jesse said.
CERV96
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,630
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:49 am
Location: It's poop again!

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

e-mail