The GM game, beat the cap

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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:52 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Stopped reading when Neal was called a sniper that is too easy to take out of the game but in the next sentence said we needed a Sykora type.


Ok, Sykora was just an example of a more two way players the year we made the finals. Maybe not the best example but just simply making a point that was pretty obvious.

Sykora was in no way, shape, or form a 2 way player. Neal is the player you're talking about and he's signed at a great price for a 40 goal guy.


Man, it was just an example of the year we went to the finals. It wasnt the end all be all of examples and had nothing to do with the point. I could have inserted 30 players in there, the point had nothing to do with that. Get over it.

Neal was completely neutralized, he did nothing. The only reason that series wasnt like watching the Burins vs. an NCAA Division 1 team was because Malkin had superior talent to carry some of the play. Did anyone else actually watch the games? The Bruins did nothing special. They closed around Malkin, denied Neal that right circle, had the goalie step up a bit to cut off angles and made it a piece of cake to defend.

We have all the guys who are great deals and great fits yet we get embarrassed in the playoffs year after year. Bigger changes are needed. Perimeter play is getting us killed and thats not all on HCDB. The Bruins did nothing special to defend us at all.

All these people want to trade Malkin to build a team around more cap space, I would trade neal before even thinking about trading Malkin if the main reason is that we need cap space to build a more solid roster. Not even a question.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:52 pm

shmenguin wrote:I have no beef with Neal. He was a victim of strategy and a tough defense. I thought he was pretty good at covering a lot of ice at both ends of the rink. He also didn't take any dumb penalties, which was refreshing.

He missed the net a ton, which sucks. But he doesn't really have a history of that.


He does with us if he is not playing with Malkin.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:54 pm

Ok name 5 RWs (or 30) who are available and better than Neal right now. He's not part of the problem here.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:57 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
shmenguin wrote:I have no beef with Neal. He was a victim of strategy and a tough defense. I thought he was pretty good at covering a lot of ice at both ends of the rink. He also didn't take any dumb penalties, which was refreshing.

He missed the net a ton, which sucks. But he doesn't really have a history of that.


He does with us if he is not playing with Malkin.


Aside from Dupuis, no one on this team was very good at scoring when they weren't with Sid or Geno. In fact, everyone was pretty pathetic - aside from the 10-36-19 expirement. I think we leaned pretty heavy on those two to be brilliant with everyone else just slurping up the runoff.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:59 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:Ok name 5 RWs (or 30) who are available and better than Neal right now. He's not part of the problem here.


Umm, not the point at all. Name 5 centers better than Malkin and people are talking about trading him. There are many factors including the cap. We can't keep everyone and the playoffs proved we need depth, better role players and defense.

I would sign Malkin and trade Neal and its not even close in my mind. I would take Malkin and mucker wingers over Neal and an above average center. Neal has his playoff moments but doesn't provide enough on his own to carry the play and be a game changer.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:00 pm

Which means he's paid appropriately
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:02 pm

shmenguin wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
shmenguin wrote:I have no beef with Neal. He was a victim of strategy and a tough defense. I thought he was pretty good at covering a lot of ice at both ends of the rink. He also didn't take any dumb penalties, which was refreshing.

He missed the net a ton, which sucks. But he doesn't really have a history of that.


He does with us if he is not playing with Malkin.


Aside from Dupuis, no one on this team was very good at scoring when they weren't with Sid or Geno. In fact, everyone was pretty pathetic - aside from the 10-36-19 expirement. I think we leaned pretty heavy on those two to be brilliant with everyone else just slurping up the runoff.


I don't disagree with that at all. Which is why I am saying bigger changes are needed and we should shift (mostly because of the cap, Malkins upcoming contract, the fact we have been dismantled a few times and that we have very few entry level deals coming up to contribute) to a different personnel strategy.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:03 pm

shmenguin wrote:Which means he's paid appropriately

This is hopeless shmenguin.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby pens_CT on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:03 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Stopped reading when Neal was called a sniper that is too easy to take out of the game but in the next sentence said we needed a Sykora type.


Ok, Sykora was just an example of a more two way players the year we made the finals. Maybe not the best example but just simply making a point that was pretty obvious.

Sykora was in no way, shape, or form a 2 way player. Neal is the player you're talking about and he's signed at a great price for a 40 goal guy.

Despite being a 40 goal scorer, Neal needs to be more than a perimeter player in the playoffs.

Like in the Sens series? He's a top 5 RW right now. What more do you want from the guy?

The sens defense provided little opposition to any penguin near the net, so I'm not getting excited about his performance. I don't have an issue with Neal outside of the fact that at 6'2" you need more from him than 25 foot wrist shots during the playoffs when a large percentage of goals happen within 10 feet of the net.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:06 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Which means he's paid appropriately

This is hopeless shmenguin.


So it's ok to talk about trading Malkin but not Neal? It's not about being paid appropriately, there is a cap you have to make tough decisions if you have Sid / Geno and their salary.

You guys are going to be surprised in the next few years if that's your take on our situation.

It literally has nothing to do with being paid exactly his worth. It's a cap league now and has been.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:12 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Which means he's paid appropriately

This is hopeless shmenguin.


So it's ok to talk about trading Malkin but not Neal? It's not about being paid appropriately, there is a cap you have to make tough decisions if you have Sid / Geno and their salary.

You guys are going to be surprised in the next few years if that's your take on our situation.

It literally has nothing to do with being paid exactly his worth. It's a cap league now and has been.

Who are you replacing him with?
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:17 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Which means he's paid appropriately

This is hopeless shmenguin.


So it's ok to talk about trading Malkin but not Neal? It's not about being paid appropriately, there is a cap you have to make tough decisions if you have Sid / Geno and their salary.

You guys are going to be surprised in the next few years if that's your take on our situation.

It literally has nothing to do with being paid exactly his worth. It's a cap league now and has been.

Who are you replacing him with?


Who are you replacing any of these guys we are going to have to trade or not reup because of the cap? Including Malking Or heck even Dupuis/2nd line/3rd line wing spots or the possible 3 or 4 d positions we may have available? Bennett, Harringotn that's it for now?

The rules are the same for Neal as they are for every other position. We have some major choices to make the next year and especially the next two years. My only point is Neal is not immune to those choices.

The playoffs have proven that 3rd and 4th line as well as 4-6 dmen are just as important.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:19 pm

I see your point, I just think you can win with Neal. Especially at that price.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby meow on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:19 pm

shmenguin wrote:Ryan Miller is the same as MAF. Doesnt fill enough of the net to be consistent in today's NHL

Are...are you serious? Please tell me you aren't serious.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:20 pm

meow wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Ryan Miller is the same as MAF. Doesnt fill enough of the net to be consistent in today's NHL

Are...are you serious? Please tell me you aren't serious.


Seems to me that they both play small. Sue me.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby meow on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:22 pm

shmenguin wrote:
meow wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Ryan Miller is the same as MAF. Doesnt fill enough of the net to be consistent in today's NHL

Are...are you serious? Please tell me you aren't serious.


Seems to me that they both play small. Sue me.

I wish I could after that ridiculous statement. I'd be rolling in cash
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:25 pm

shmenguin wrote:I see your point, I just think you can win with Neal. Especially at that price.


Look, I am not here advocating running Neal out of town. It's just given the choice even at a higher price I'm keeping Malkin and dumping him if the cap proves it necessary.

Next year (s) we are going to have roughly $30 million to fill out what 16 spots to get to 23 not including money needed for deadline deals.....and including the fact we will have very few entry level deals from contributing players.

We won cup without any high powered scoring wingers and got to another with Hossa (who it can be argued is just as valuable for his two way play). We have been shut down by the Bruins and run around by the Flyers. Something has to change at some point.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:41 pm

On so you have Neal off the books what do you down that money on an who do you replace him with?
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:00 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:On so you have Neal off the books what do you down that money on an who do you replace him with?


Again. Not the point - read above. We cant keep everyone, not going to happen. We can play that game, in fact we are going to have to play that game with 10 plus guys over the next two years including guys like Malkin, Letang or Neal. The question is going to come up behind closed doors a lot. Them A decision will be made.

If that is how you view the situation be prepared to be totally shocked the next three years because guys are going to be shipped out or leave without viable replacements.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:01 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:On so you have Neal off the books what do you down that money on an who do you replace him with?


Again. Not the point - read above. We cant keep everyone, not going to happen. We can play that game, in fact we are going to have to play that game with 10 plus guys over the next two years including guys like Malkin, Letang or Neal. The question is going to come up behind closed doors a lot. Them A decision will be made.

If that is how you view the situation be prepared to be totally shocked the next three years because guys are going to be shipped out or leave without viable replacements.

So your plan is get rid of Neal an twiddle your thumbs.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:08 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:On so you have Neal off the books what do you down that money on an who do you replace him with?


Again. Not the point - read above. We cant keep everyone, not going to happen. We can play that game, in fact we are going to have to play that game with 10 plus guys over the next two years including guys like Malkin, Letang or Neal. The question is going to come up behind closed doors a lot. Them A decision will be made.

If that is how you view the situation be prepared to be totally shocked the next three years because guys are going to be shipped out or leave without viable replacements.

So your plan is get rid of Neal an twiddle your thumbs.


Yes that's it that's exactly the plan. Ok instead what I'll say is player x is a UFA we will sign him!!!!!!! And we will trade Neal for player x and they will take Nisky off out books!!!!!!

now I made a valid point.

The Pens are going to have to trade players or not resign players and fill the roster with cheaper options.

Whether its from our farm system or cheaper options from other teams its going to happen.

And given my options I'm keeping Malkin and placing role players on his wings instead of replacing him and putting higher prices players on Neals line.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:11 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:On so you have Neal off the books what do you down that money on an who do you replace him with?


Again. Not the point - read above. We cant keep everyone, not going to happen. We can play that game, in fact we are going to have to play that game with 10 plus guys over the next two years including guys like Malkin, Letang or Neal. The question is going to come up behind closed doors a lot. Them A decision will be made.

If that is how you view the situation be prepared to be totally shocked the next three years because guys are going to be shipped out or leave without viable replacements.

So your plan is get rid of Neal an twiddle your thumbs.


Yes that's it that's exactly the plan. Ok instead what I'll say is player x is a UFA we will sign him!!!!!!! And we will trade Neal for player x and they will take Nisky off out books!!!!!!

now I made a valid point.

The Pens are going to have to trade players or not resign players and fill the roster with cheaper options.

Whether its from our farm system or cheaper options from other teams its going to happen.

And given my options I'm keeping Malkin and placing role players on his wings instead of replacing him and putting higher prices players on Neals line.

Again what role players? Instead of blanket statements like "the Pens can't keep everyone" maybe try and back up that assertion. This thread is about doing that.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:14 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:On so you have Neal off the books what do you down that money on an who do you replace him with?


Again. Not the point - read above. We cant keep everyone, not going to happen. We can play that game, in fact we are going to have to play that game with 10 plus guys over the next two years including guys like Malkin, Letang or Neal. The question is going to come up behind closed doors a lot. Them A decision will be made.

If that is how you view the situation be prepared to be totally shocked the next three years because guys are going to be shipped out or leave without viable replacements.

So your plan is get rid of Neal an twiddle your thumbs.


Yes that's it that's exactly the plan. Ok instead what I'll say is player x is a UFA we will sign him!!!!!!! And we will trade Neal for player x and they will take Nisky off out books!!!!!!

now I made a valid point.

The Pens are going to have to trade players or not resign players and fill the roster with cheaper options.

Whether its from our farm system or cheaper options from other teams its going to happen.

And given my options I'm keeping Malkin and placing role players on his wings instead of replacing him and putting higher prices players on Neals line.

Again what role players? Instead of blanket statements like "the Pens can't keep everyone" maybe try and back up that assertion. This thread is about doing that.


Cool ill go to another thread because guessing at who that might be for Neal or Malkin doesn't make my point any more valid.

4 players at $30 million ain't gonna happen and I would start shopping Neal before Malkin every day of the week.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby farnham16 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:37 pm

Haha I want Ryan Miller nowhere near this team. Dude is probably the most selfish player in the NHL. Plus he sucks.
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Re: The GM game, beat the cap

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:34 pm

Moved Nisky and Glass for Sarich.
Bort and Jeffery not re-signed they're not very good and are what they are at this point
Cooke goes somewhere else
Adams is gone
Iginla, no room

Torres - Crazy but a playoff player (surely a gamble)
Morrow - PKs, leaves it all out there, showed he can still plant himself in front of the net, keep up with the team, and be the 3rd best guy on a scoring line.
Dupuis - He came way back down to Earth during the playoffs. Beau has got to be on the top lines, Dupuis can help bring stability to the 3rd line
Larose - Has a motor that keeps going, energy
TK - for the right price he comes back, started to realize what it takes to be in the line up during the playoffs and was getting better and more comfortable in a checking role.
Sarich - On the last year of his deal, can PK, is pretty good positionally
Murray - The only real physical presence the Pens have for guys in front, 6th d-man

That's about it.

My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Brenden Morrow ($2.000m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Raffi Torres ($1.250m)
Chad Larose ($1.250m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Jussi Jokinen ($2.100m)
Tyler Kennedy ($1.500m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Simon Despres ($0.840m)
Cory Sarich ($2.000m) / Douglas Murray ($1.500m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.567m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,398,333; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $901,667
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