Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 teams)

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If true:

Let him walk after next season and take a final run with him as #1 Dman
11
5%
Sign him and Malkin, rest of the roster be damned
12
5%
Sign him and trade Malkin/let Malkin walk
0
No votes
Trade Letang at draft/before season starts
202
83%
Shut up NAN
18
7%
 
Total votes : 243

Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Malkamaniac on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:50 pm

I'd trade Letang to the Panthers for Kulikov or Gudbranson and their first round pick.

(no idea if they'd do it, both of those guys are RFA.)
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby TheHammer24 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:56 pm

Kraftster wrote:Every time I think about posting in this thread, I come across a Hammer post that I just want to QFT. Hammer is nailing it.

And where is this idea that it is not Shero's style to let a player leave for nothing? Not only has it happened with his own players, but he has twice in four years traded for the marquee rental player and has seen that player walk once and TBD (likely walk) a second time. Jordan Staal was a more unique situation because (1) his minutes and contributions were easier to replace than Letang's will be and (2) the return on his then-salary was only a moderate bargain as opposed to Letang who is worth more than double his current salary (i.e., ~$4M bargain vs. ~$1M bargain).


I completely agree with your assessment on the difference between Staal and Letang. Staal's cap bargain was moderate, at best. Plus, the stop gap necessary was easier to find at a very affordable rate (#3 Center at $1.5mm vs #1 Dman at $$$$).

no name wrote:Do you really think Letang is the key to winning the cup, you don't think we could land ourselves a player who could take on his minutes and perform just as well, overall? You might not get a point per game player on defnece, but someone who would be a positive player. I think we would be better off without him, he is a great offensive D man, but his 5 on 5 game needs improvement still. I thnk without Letang, Dan Bylsma might try to coach defence more than preach the defencemen all chasing the play up ice.

I am not criticizing the Iginla, Morrow, etc. trades. I'm just saying we traded a lot of future assets "for nothing," as everyone keeps saying. Of course, those assets didn't go "nothing." They went for three very good players that increased our chances of winning this year and decreased our chances of winning in future years. I'm just trying to get people to see that there are two sides of this analysis: chances of winning in 2013 w/ Letang and 2014-15 w/o Letang VS. chances of winning in 2013-15 and beyond with whatever we can get for Letang.

Everyone is terrified of "losing" a key asset. You can't look at it like that. We're not "losing" anything. We're making a decision to keep Letang this year and lose whatever we could get for him in the years that follow. You have to look at which option maximizes our chance of winning a Cup; that is, which side of the equation is greater. I submit that we are too cap strapped to get a return for Letang that makes the trade worth it. Perhaps, some team would give us two great players and high draft pick that make our chances of winning after this season worth it. But I don't see how that is possible with our cap situation. So, I'm merely suggesting that keeping Letang at his ridiculous cap hit this year gives us a better chance of winning a Cup in the next 10 years than trading him does.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:21 pm

Who was the marquee rental player the Pens got before Iginla?
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Crankshaft on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:23 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Who was the marquee rental player the Pens got before Iginla?


Hossa? Guerin?
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby largegarlic on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:23 pm

I posted this a good number of pages back in this thread, but my reasoning is that Bylsma + this core group of players (Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury) =/= Cup. Sure, it's a possibility that this same coaching staff and group of key players pull it off next year, but I think the past four years have given us good reason to doubt this will happen. I might have been in favor keeping Letang and letting him walk after next season, if a new coach were being brought in. However, Letang is now seemingly the only major piece of the equation that can be changed, unless the Pens are under-achieving part way through next season and Bylsma gets canned.

So, on my reasoning, keeping Letang gives us a very small chance of winning the Cup next year and the detriment of losing him for little return. Trading Letang now also leaves us with a very small chance of winning the Cup next year and the benefit of getting a good return.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby topshelf66 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:25 pm

I have been in agreement with the idea of keeping Letang even if we can't sign him. I am one of the nine votes for sign him and 71 and go from there. Keeping Letang at $3.5 even if you haven't signed him gives the Penguins the best chance of winning the Cup in 2013 period. If we move our #1 D, you essentially weaken all six D positions as eveyone moves up. Even if you brough back a #3 D immediately, you have made yourself weaker at #1 and #2.

Top five picks will perhaps reach a level where they can make a large contribution when 87/71/7/18 are all a few years older.

Even though I have been putting forward this argument, the concensus seems to be the Shero would never do this. If this is the case, I will easily accept that what Shro did was the best thing for the organization. I just think that the idea can't be dismissed out of hand.

I would suspect that Shero may be working from a list like this...

1. Resign him if it can be done for $X.
2. Trade him as long as the return is at least X+Y+Z.
3. Hold him without resigning him if the trade value is less than X+Y+Z.

I am sure there is point where if his trade value was so low, that Shero would opt for #3.

If the optimal trade return for Letang was 100. My line of thinking is that if was cant get at least 90 for him, we play him unsigend and trade his rights after the season of a return of 10.

Those who say we shouldn't "let hm go for nothing" may have a threshold in their minds of "if we get 70 in return for him now , we should take it over the possibility of having a better 203-2014 team".
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:32 pm

Crankshaft wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Who was the marquee rental player the Pens got before Iginla?


Hossa? Guerin?


Hossa was obtained in 2008, not within the past 4 seasons. Guerin was not marquee and was obtained in 2009, also not within the past 4 seasons.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Stick_licker on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:42 pm

topshelf66 wrote:I have been in agreement with the idea of keeping Letang even if we can't sign him. I am one of the nine votes for sign him and 71 and go from there. Keeping Letang at $3.5 even if you haven't signed him gives the Penguins the best chance of winning the Cup in 2013 period. If we move our #1 D, you essentially weaken all six D positions as eveyone moves up. Even if you brough back a #3 D immediately, you have made yourself weaker at #1 and #2.

Top five picks will perhaps reach a level where they can make a large contribution when 87/71/7/18 are all a few years older.

Even though I have been putting forward this argument, the concensus seems to be the Shero would never do this. If this is the case, I will easily accept that what Shro did was the best thing for the organization. I just think that the idea can't be dismissed out of hand.

I would suspect that Shero may be working from a list like this...

1. Resign him if it can be done for $X.
2. Trade him as long as the return is at least X+Y+Z.
3. Hold him without resigning him if the trade value is less than X+Y+Z.

I am sure there is point where if his trade value was so low, that Shero would opt for #3.

If the optimal trade return for Letang was 100. My line of thinking is that if was cant get at least 90 for him, we play him unsigend and trade his rights after the season of a return of 10.

Those who say we shouldn't "let hm go for nothing" may have a threshold in their minds of "if we get 70 in return for him now , we should take it over the possibility of having a better 203-2014 team".


I think most people's criticism of keeping Letang without having him signed long term is that this is the same team that got embarrassed by lower seeds each of the last four years. The last two were particularly embarrassing. Given that nothing major has changed we don't really expect anything next year - so to keep Letang as basically a 1 year rental (and traded for a low-ish round pick for his rights next year) seems kind of silly.

If a new coach was brought in, or Fleury traded for an impact player people might think differently, but it's hard to have high expectations given our 4 year recent history.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby topshelf66 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:54 pm

That seems like a weak criticism. I can understand the overall asset management argument better. The argument that since we didn't win the cup in the past four seasons, we aren't going to win it next season is not a way to run a team. If we are resigned to not winning the cup without a major shake up of coaching / players, why re-sign 71? We could trade him and 87 at the hight of their value for many many picks that would come of age when we have new coaches and a new style of play.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby pens_CT on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:56 pm

Kraftster wrote:Every time I think about posting in this thread, I come across a Hammer post that I just want to QFT. Hammer is nailing it.

And where is this idea that it is not Shero's style to let a player leave for nothing? Not only has it happened with his own players, but he has twice in four years traded for the marquee rental player and has seen that player walk once and TBD (likely walk) a second time. Jordan Staal was a more unique situation because (1) his minutes and contributions were easier to replace than Letang's will be and (2) the return on his then-salary was only a moderate bargain as opposed to Letang who is worth more than double his current salary (i.e., ~$4M bargain vs. ~$1M bargain).

Do you really think its valid to compare a 26 yr old, who has the third highest trade value on the team, to other players obtained at the trade deadline such as Hossa or Iginla or Morrow, who where not, or may not be re-signed? It would be terrible asset management to let Letang leave for nothing, in hopes that you win the cup in 2013-14.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Crankshaft on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:56 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Who was the marquee rental player the Pens got before Iginla?


Hossa? Guerin?


Hossa was obtained in 2008, not within the past 4 seasons. Guerin was not marquee and was obtained in 2009, also not within the past 4 seasons.


I didn't know there was a qualifier on your original question. Sorry.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Malkamaniac on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:58 pm

Letang was a point scorer, Martin was the number one d-man overall this year.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby no name on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:59 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
Kraftster wrote:Every time I think about posting in this thread, I come across a Hammer post that I just want to QFT. Hammer is nailing it.

And where is this idea that it is not Shero's style to let a player leave for nothing? Not only has it happened with his own players, but he has twice in four years traded for the marquee rental player and has seen that player walk once and TBD (likely walk) a second time. Jordan Staal was a more unique situation because (1) his minutes and contributions were easier to replace than Letang's will be and (2) the return on his then-salary was only a moderate bargain as opposed to Letang who is worth more than double his current salary (i.e., ~$4M bargain vs. ~$1M bargain).


I completely agree with your assessment on the difference between Staal and Letang. Staal's cap bargain was moderate, at best. Plus, the stop gap necessary was easier to find at a very affordable rate (#3 Center at $1.5mm vs #1 Dman at $$$$).

no name wrote:Do you really think Letang is the key to winning the cup, you don't think we could land ourselves a player who could take on his minutes and perform just as well, overall? You might not get a point per game player on defnece, but someone who would be a positive player. I think we would be better off without him, he is a great offensive D man, but his 5 on 5 game needs improvement still. I thnk without Letang, Dan Bylsma might try to coach defence more than preach the defencemen all chasing the play up ice.

I am not criticizing the Iginla, Morrow, etc. trades. I'm just saying we traded a lot of future assets "for nothing," as everyone keeps saying. Of course, those assets didn't go "nothing." They went for three very good players that increased our chances of winning this year and decreased our chances of winning in future years. I'm just trying to get people to see that there are two sides of this analysis: chances of winning in 2013 w/ Letang and 2014-15 w/o Letang VS. chances of winning in 2013-15 and beyond with whatever we can get for Letang.

Everyone is terrified of "losing" a key asset. You can't look at it like that. We're not "losing" anything. We're making a decision to keep Letang this year and lose whatever we could get for him in the years that follow. You have to look at which option maximizes our chance of winning a Cup; that is, which side of the equation is greater. I submit that we are too cap strapped to get a return for Letang that makes the trade worth it. Perhaps, some team would give us two great players and high draft pick that make our chances of winning after this season worth it. But I don't see how that is possible with our cap situation. So, I'm merely suggesting that keeping Letang at his ridiculous cap hit this year gives us a better chance of winning a Cup in the next 10 years than trading him does.


a better chance of winning a Cup


See this is where i am blocked after this seasons dissapointment, i mean the cup was supposed to be ours. you don't lose when you play your cards like that. Right now i am convinced you just maintain a good team and one day the stars will align and the cup will be yours. I never dreamed in 09 that Guerin, Gill and Kunitz would be our ticket to the cup. Keep a good team intact and you will one day get another cup. So i can't look at it as going for the cup next year, you never know when that year will be.

But thanks for laying out your argument so rationally. I can see what you are saying but if i was a GM i would just field your best team year in year out and hope you get a cup. Chasing a cup for one season, that thinking i can't get into right now. Maximizing your assets for the long run will give you years of cup runs, letting assets go just to chase something, i can't embrase that right now.
Last edited by no name on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby pcm on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:59 pm

Or just sign him, and if you determine at any point in 2013 that the team's better off without him/his salary, trade him before his new contract (and NTC) kicks in.

Unless of course Carolina is staring at Nichuskin on the board at #5 and offers their pick + Faulk for Letang...
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:02 pm

Crankshaft wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Who was the marquee rental player the Pens got before Iginla?


Hossa? Guerin?


Hossa was obtained in 2008, not within the past 4 seasons. Guerin was not marquee and was obtained in 2009, also not within the past 4 seasons.


I didn't know there was a qualifier on your original question. Sorry.


It was a direct response to a post in which someone was talking about the PEnguins bringing in 2 marquee free agents in the last 4 years.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Stick_licker on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:08 pm

topshelf66 wrote:That seems like a weak criticism. I can understand the overall asset management argument better. The argument that since we didn't win the cup in the past four seasons, we aren't going to win it next season is not a way to run a team. If we are resigned to not winning the cup without a major shake up of coaching / players, why re-sign 71? We could trade him and 87 at the hight of their value for many many picks that would come of age when we have new coaches and a new style of play.


I think most people ARE advocating for a major shakeup and are disappointed it hasn't happened. Changing the coach would have been the easiest and cheapest method available (and perhaps the right one on top of that). But regardless it appears very little will change for next year.

I think if we had lost to Boston in a hard-fought 6/7 game series this conversation would be different.

If we hadn't been publicly embarrassed by Philadelphia last year and been the laughingstock of the league then this conversation would be different

If we hadn't lost to 2 low seeds (including after being up by 3 games to 1) the two years before than this conversation would be different.

Again, it's not that people are pissed we haven't won the cup in 4 years - they're pissed because we've been embarrassed in each series loss. That's why people don't want to risk losing Letang for little return for a 1 year "all-in" effort.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby no name on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:25 pm

pcm wrote:Or just sign him, and if you determine at any point in 2013 that the team's better off without him/his salary, trade him before his new contract (and NTC) kicks in.

Unless of course Carolina is staring at Nichuskin on the board at #5 and offers their pick + Faulk for Letang...


I was reading up on that kid Nichuskin and they compare him to Geno and Ovechkin, 6'4 202 pounds. Sounds like a beast. He plays both wings.... tempting!!!
Last edited by no name on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Kraftster on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:26 pm

5 years. I was referring to Hossa but miscounting.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Kraftster on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:43 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Kraftster wrote:Every time I think about posting in this thread, I come across a Hammer post that I just want to QFT. Hammer is nailing it.

And where is this idea that it is not Shero's style to let a player leave for nothing? Not only has it happened with his own players, but he has twice in four years traded for the marquee rental player and has seen that player walk once and TBD (likely walk) a second time. Jordan Staal was a more unique situation because (1) his minutes and contributions were easier to replace than Letang's will be and (2) the return on his then-salary was only a moderate bargain as opposed to Letang who is worth more than double his current salary (i.e., ~$4M bargain vs. ~$1M bargain).

Do you really think its valid to compare a 26 yr old, who has the third highest trade value on the team, to other players obtained at the trade deadline such as Hossa or Iginla or Morrow, who where not, or may not be re-signed? It would be terrible asset management to let Letang leave for nothing, in hopes that you win the cup in 2013-14.


I think it's silly to expect a GM to groom talent and never "lose them for nothing." It is not as if Letang will be the finest player to ever reach free agency if he does. Damn good players end up reaching free agency all the time -- players far better than Letang, and players from teams with plenty competent GMs.

I'm about as big an asset management guy as there is, but sometimes you just gotta hold 'em. Letang, a $7.5M+ player on the open market, is yours next year for $3.5M. Your ROI with Letang next year should put you way ahead of the curve and give you some added flexibility elsewhere. You cannot expect to be in as good a position next year without Letang as you will be with him without complete luck. Best you can hope for would be to get a #3 defenseman at that same $3.5M salary, then what about the rest you get back? If you get additional immediate NHL players back, then you have a similar cap concern as you would with Letang the following year, albeit with theoretically two players instead of one. Asking a #3 dman to play Letang minutes is a much bigger ask than replacing Staal with Sutter and a combination of penalty killing effort/defensive assignments among other players. Staal is the only prior example suggesting that Shero would rather trade Letang that carry him into next year and have himself a $7.5M defenseman for $3.5M.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby pens_CT on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:04 pm

Kraftster wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Kraftster wrote:Every time I think about posting in this thread, I come across a Hammer post that I just want to QFT. Hammer is nailing it.

And where is this idea that it is not Shero's style to let a player leave for nothing? Not only has it happened with his own players, but he has twice in four years traded for the marquee rental player and has seen that player walk once and TBD (likely walk) a second time. Jordan Staal was a more unique situation because (1) his minutes and contributions were easier to replace than Letang's will be and (2) the return on his then-salary was only a moderate bargain as opposed to Letang who is worth more than double his current salary (i.e., ~$4M bargain vs. ~$1M bargain).

Do you really think its valid to compare a 26 yr old, who has the third highest trade value on the team, to other players obtained at the trade deadline such as Hossa or Iginla or Morrow, who where not, or may not be re-signed? It would be terrible asset management to let Letang leave for nothing, in hopes that you win the cup in 2013-14.


I think it's silly to expect a GM to groom talent and never "lose them for nothing." It is not as if Letang will be the finest player to ever reach free agency if he does. Damn good players end up reaching free agency all the time -- players far better than Letang, and players from teams with plenty competent GMs.

I'm about as big an asset management guy as there is, but sometimes you just gotta hold 'em. Letang, a $7.5M+ player on the open market, is yours next year for $3.5M. Your ROI with Letang next year should put you way ahead of the curve and give you some added flexibility elsewhere. You cannot expect to be in as good a position next year without Letang as you will be with him without complete luck. Best you can hope for would be to get a #3 defenseman at that same $3.5M salary, then what about the rest you get back? If you get additional immediate NHL players back, then you have a similar cap concern as you would with Letang the following year, albeit with theoretically two players instead of one. Asking a #3 dman to play Letang minutes is a much bigger ask than replacing Staal with Sutter and a combination of penalty killing effort/defensive assignments among other players. Staal is the only prior example suggesting that Shero would rather trade Letang that carry him into next year and have himself a $7.5M defenseman for $3.5M.


Too many things can go wrong (injuries) next year which could prevent this team from winning the cup with or without Letang. If Geno and Sid were near the end of their careers and you wanted to go for it one last time, then roll the dice and hope having Letang puts you over the top. That's not where this team is, and even though Letang will be missed from the defense, you will still will get two quality players back in return, whose collectively salary might be less than what you have to pay Letang alone. As someone else mentioned, not having Letang might force HCDB to play a more conservative system, which isn't a bad thing when you consider their lack of success in the playoffs the last few years.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby DelPen on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:40 pm

Here's the ultimate question, the difference of keeping Letang will be probably an additional $3 million or so, essentially Orpik and Niskanen contracts minus rookie replacements.

IF Despres can get into top 4 position along with Harrington and Dumoulin, Maata or Samulesson can step up for bottom pairing then you keep Letang. The cap will go back up, and Orpik is on the decline. If Harrington can step in with Martin and excel from day one then great but this also means you need to have Despres and harrington play a lot next season to prepare for future losses, something Bylsma hasn't done much of at all.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby IanMoran on Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:31 pm

Anyone else get the "PENS ALERT" text and think "oooo what happened with Letang?" for a brief second lol
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Dr Rosenrosen on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:14 pm

Bottom line for me: I'd really prefer Letang not be on the Pens while playing for his next contract. If you thought he was frustrating this year...
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby skullman80 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:49 pm

See I think there is no possible way that we if we trade Letang that we are better next year. Now the year's after that depending on the return that's up in the air. I really hate to lose an asset like him, but with the cap it's bound to happen at times.
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Re: Pens believe Letang will want $7-$8MM/Year

Postby Desiato on Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:20 pm

skullman80 wrote:See I think there is no possible way that we if we trade Letang that we are better next year. Now the year's after that depending on the return that's up in the air. I really hate to lose an asset like him, but with the cap it's bound to happen at times.


I disagree. Letang is an important contributor, but just one player. The Penguins still have relatively young stars and prospects that will continue to improve. The assets they receive can be used, directly or indirectly, to replace his contributions.

Further, while it can be argued that the lack of offensive production is why the Pens didn't win against the Bruins, Letang was a reason they lost.

I like Letang. I think he's a unique player and a lot of fun to watch. But I also think he has significant shortcomings and that his value is inflated because of who he plays with and how he's been enabled to play.

And to top it all off, if he remains on the Pens without an extension, this thread will spill into 2014 and his saga will be a distraction for the franchise all season long.

If he doesn't want to commit within budget, sell him while he's hot.
Desiato
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