If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:59 pm

mikey287 wrote:So...what should Sutter have done considering he was gifted so many defensive zone starts? I mean, it seemed like the only time any non-Sutter center took a D-zone draw was because they were out for an icing. How much offense is he supposed to provide in that situational matching situation? He's also not much of a playmaker, he's more of a finisher if anything. He doesn't have great vision.

The third line lacked an offensive identity from the coaching staff. Our third line was a cycling line in 2009, get it deep and create from the below the icing line. That identity was lacking in 2013 and that posed some of our problems. But the line did extremely well defensively given the tough minutes they had to slog through...impressively so.

Any sort of shortcomings that Sutter had offensively are more of a product of Bylsma than Sutter's poor play. As he was terrific throughout, along with Matt Cooke.

It sounds like you'd be the Habs fan that's upset with Guy Carbonneau in '93...or the Wings fan upset with Kris Draper in '97...

Sutter got an assignment defensively and he did it. And did it well, so did Cooke, what should they have done differently?


Mikey, I agree with some of the main points here especially when anyone acknowledges that the team lacked a major part of NHL playoff hockey with lack of cycle play. I actually have been concerned and posting about this since February. The team simply doesn't not carry the play enough, does not keep enough zone time, come in waves, create real chances and does not create pressure. It's feast or famine and then the team goes the other way.

I have said it before but all that you need to do to see how we need to change is go through our last 3 wins against Detroit. One PP goal ( from down low), shorty and a bunch of goals off of neutral zone turnovers or forecheck turnovers. How many did we get like that all year let alone the playoffs. Our play was destined for disaster. Regular season stats be damned when given multiple games to adjust.

I laugh when people actually say this last series could have been closer if our posts went in, or the close plays went in our favor. And they list like 10. Every other series teams are getting 10 of those a game. Even losing teams pressure, cycle and come in waves. We skate shoot retreat. As much as people complain about the Bruins being boring the Pens played right into their hands and made it just as boring on their own.

The part I don't 100 percent agree with is its all in HCDB. I'm not in a fire Shero crowd but he built a roster with not enough solid defensive zone play and no umph up front. Other than Kunitz who at least tries but can't quite do it anymore. While I do put a lot of blame in HCDB (it can't be coincidence that all grinders fail here and excel before here or after leaving) Shero has some fault in this. We won with skill up the middle and grinders on the wing sprinkled in with decent defensive players and completely deviated from that.

How that deals with Sutter - I think Scott is right but he should be directing his things at the entire teams style of play/roster. If you ask Sutter (and Jesse thx for the stats) to play that style and situation you need via coaching or GM to flank him with guys who can get the puck deep and create any momentum at some point in a series.

While the stats tell a true story I still say the eyeball test tells another chapter. We simply made it too easy on the other teams to adjust to that. If I'm the Bruins and you know the Sutter line is going to be all defense all the time I would just throw in the white out towel (that i paid for at dicks) if my top line was out there. do what I can to keep the puck deep, settle down play and wait for a line change. Wy bother giving up an odd man chance you are going to get plenty of those from our other lines skate shoot panic philosophy.

Reading through this thread I think everyone is right in their own way. Scott - the third line needed to do more or in reality third line type play was needed more often from anyone. Jesse the stats say they were dynamite at playing defense and that is true but we needed more pressure and cycle from anyone to win.

Bottom line we are too easy to scout and too easy to play against when given multiple games to prepare for us and what we bring. Unless you are awful like Ottawa.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:07 pm

nice post. Lots of good stuff in there.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Pitts on Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Chefpatrick871 wrote:Lots of lulz here. Really dude, challenging Jesse and Mikey about knowledge of the game. Hilarious.

:thumb: No kidding.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:36 am

shmenguin wrote:nice post. Lots of good stuff in there.


Yes, good post. Can't say I agree with all of it to a "T" but it's not nearly enough disagreement to dissect it, certainly.

I'd argue that the roster was built well though and it provided the requisite "oomph" quotient for success (Iginla, Morrow added, Kunitz existing). But what part of our game involves "oomph"? Bertuzzi in his prime also probably would have been utilized on his wrong wing for no particular reason.

It's not 100% on Bylsma, but a lot of things that people are griping about are coaching related.

Our defense was:

Elite #1 - #5
#3/4 - #2/3
#6 - #6/7

That's not bad.

Compare:

Boston:

Elite #1 - #4
#5 - #5
#6 - young #5/6 w/upside

Chicago:
Semi-elite #1 - #2
weak 3/strong 4 - #5
young 4 - #6/7

It was systematic and it stemmed from having to defend too much. It can be the undoing of any team. With transition, fast-break hockey comes a price. It's risk/reward. We saw the high reward (a ridiculous amount of playoff scoring in the first two rounds, especially when adjusting for era), we saw the risk (getting blasted by Boston). You have to have an alternative game plan somewhere in there. Now, I know we saw a lot more 1-2-2 this year, especially during the regular season, but that was a simple simon approach...I'm not sure it was ever elaborated on...it seemed to be like a "you guys all played this at some point in your careers, just do it..." type of thing...now that's a major, major jump by me, a bigger jump than I'm comfortable making because I don't know that that's true at all. But it was kept very simple, it was designed to protect the lead for 10 minutes, it wasn't elaborated on to be an alternate game plan.

There are a number of game plans out there to choose from and/or concoct, but I'm not certain we were willing or able...on either side of center. And that's what's concerning to me. We can defend, we can offend attack...can we do both at the same time? Hmmm...
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:50 am

Don't get me wrong, I agree and don't particularly like our system to your points. But we brought in big bodies like Neal or Iginla/Morrow who even in their best games are not getting pucks and creating space for our stars. For example Morrow may be tough and can drop you but he he is not getting on the forecheck like Kunitz, Cooke or Talbot in 09.

Seems to me our stars create space for our wingers instead of the other way around which gave us a cup to raise and instead now made it very easy to neutralize Someone like Neal. Heck, play good position defense and have the goalie step out a step further to cut of the angle and Neal was a glass painter.

Shero tried with our defense I guess, because even if we drafted stay at home guys they wouldn't be ready, but I would argue our bottom 3 (including whoever that 6th guy was) were pretty awful in the playoffs and a 4th (Letang) was in the ice for 65% of the Bruins goals. To be fair I think Murray would have been fine in a more suited role for a big guy like him. I just think after last years debacle where they barely could play their bottom pairing coupled with coming into this year with he same or worse grouping on paper - 2 years in a row some of building that and not fixing it is on the GM.

Can we do both? Offense and defense? As for Sutter that is what this thread is about. I don't know, regular season stats for the Pens don't mean much to me. It seems everyone scores. But I'm not sure our players can do both in the playoffs but either way this feast or famine offense is not helping at all - I won't ever argue that point.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Jesse on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:08 am

BurghersDogsandSports - I agree with you minus your last line about Paul MacLean. He's a master tactician. I wouldn't discredit that series victory.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:01 pm

Jesse wrote:BurghersDogsandSports - I agree with you minus your last line about Paul MacLean. He's a master tactician. I wouldn't discredit that series victory.


Valid point. I overstated my point in the wrong direction and didn't mean to take anything away from him. Just that us playing perimeter on offense and having our checking lines not push at all made it easier to dissect us when there is decent personnel on the other side.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:04 am

Well tactics don't really matter when your team is that outmatched.
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