If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Jesse on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:05 am

Scott wrote:
Jesse wrote:
shmenguin wrote:I think there's a good chance. Detroit in '09 and Boston in '13 show you the difference between Sutter and Staal.


The difference between the two is how much better Sutter is at the shutdown aspect of his role.


When you dismiss the offensive side of the rink like Sutter does you can devote 100 percent to shutdown


Dismiss? So he doesn't even attempt to play offense?

That can't really be your opinion, right?
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby meow on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:09 am

Jesse wrote:
Scott wrote:
Jesse wrote:
shmenguin wrote:I think there's a good chance. Detroit in '09 and Boston in '13 show you the difference between Sutter and Staal.


The difference between the two is how much better Sutter is at the shutdown aspect of his role.


When you dismiss the offensive side of the rink like Sutter does you can devote 100 percent to shutdown


Dismiss? So he doesn't even attempt to play offense?

That can't really be your opinion, right?

This kills me. The Pens have the best two offensive Centers in the game and people complain about the 3rd line center's offensive abilities.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Jesse on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:13 am

meow wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Scott wrote:
Jesse wrote:
shmenguin wrote:I think there's a good chance. Detroit in '09 and Boston in '13 show you the difference between Sutter and Staal.


The difference between the two is how much better Sutter is at the shutdown aspect of his role.


When you dismiss the offensive side of the rink like Sutter does you can devote 100 percent to shutdown


Dismiss? So he doesn't even attempt to play offense?

That can't really be your opinion, right?

This kills me. The Pens have the best two offensive Centers in the game and people complain about the 3rd line center's offensive abilities.


And then say because he doesn't score enough goals, he's 4th line material. That's honestly one of the most bizarre things I've ever read.

I quoted the numbers in the feature I did in Pittsburgh Magazine this month. Sutter's goals against per 60 minutes of even strength ice time was 1.16. That's class of the NHL. Those numbers aren't magically pulled out of thin air. Sutter/Cooke faced the most difficult competition the opposition could provide to the Penguins and did a completely fantastic job of shutting them down.

I also said the problem was that his goals FOR per 60 minutes of ice time was also 1.16. But if the people complaining knew anything about Brandon Sutter, they'd not be surprised by that at all. This is a kid that didn't even score goals in Junior the way his peers did.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby meow on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:56 am

God forbid this team have roles and certain players play their roles, no matter how unsexy they may be.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby pfim on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:47 pm

Thread is completely off the rails. Sutter had more ESG this season than Datsyuk, FWIW. Sutter had a good season and a very good playoffs.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby sil on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:23 pm

Pavel Datsyuk. 4th line material.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby pcm on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:05 pm

Sutter was fine offensively in the reg season. The "black hole" Sutter storyline came about in the playoffs, where it was obvious everytime he touched the puck he looked terrified. It was his first playoffs, so hopefully its not a problem for him. But I'd like to see Blysma give him a little bit more leeway to play a 200 ft game, instead of pegging him as just a shutdown guy. I think he's got the skills to do it...
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby DelPen on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:08 pm

Honestly we'd have had a better shot by not trading for Iginla and letting Bennett do his thing on the 2nd line than even having Staal out there.

Shero tinkered too much.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby KG on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:11 pm

What Shero did at the deadline will not happen again any time soon. We will not have this much cap space available again for I don't know how long. Instead of letting it go to waste, Shero went for it.

I don't blame him for the Boston series. It's not like Shero could just pick whatever player he wanted and add him to the lineup. He added veteran leadership. Bylsma didn't handle them well IMHO....
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Scott on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:18 pm

Jesse wrote:And then say because he doesn't score enough goals, he's 4th line material. That's honestly one of the most bizarre things I've ever read.

I quoted the numbers in the feature I did in Pittsburgh Magazine this month. Sutter's goals against per 60 minutes of even strength ice time was 1.16. That's class of the NHL. Those numbers aren't magically pulled out of thin air. Sutter/Cooke faced the most difficult competition the opposition could provide to the Penguins and did a completely fantastic job of shutting them down.

I also said the problem was that his goals FOR per 60 minutes of ice time was also 1.16. But if the people complaining knew anything about Brandon Sutter, they'd not be surprised by that at all. This is a kid that didn't even score goals in Junior the way his peers did.


You may write ok but comprehension is lacking. Don't misquote me like that.

I will say to refresh and help clarify...this has nothing to do with goals and assists alone. It has to do with offense as a whole. In case you don't know this extends way beyond goals and assists. You seem like a numbers only kind of person so you should certainly appreciate the fact I was just pointing out that 3 points in 15 games clearly shows how ridiculously one sided his game is.

You want to talk numbers ok, but I prefer to look at numbers and the rest of the situation because numbers do not tell the whole story in sports.

I never disputed his efforts on defense. Yes they were more than adequate. Did he provide that defense while providing offense? No. He provided that defense while providing that defense. That was it. As soon as the playoffs hit he went into a shell. Skating forward was no longer part of his game.

I said it way before the Boston series came around that Sutter and that 3rd line has to provide some offense going forward because at some point the Pens top 6 will be shut down and they will need scoring elsewhere. You know what everyone said...no way. Look at the top 6 we have. Nobody can shut all these guys down. YEAH, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN huh :face: :face: :face:

The 3rd line had serious identity trouble in the playoffs.

But just to pay tribute to the numbers only folks, I echo again. 3 points in 15 games. The same point total as Douglas Murray :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby DelPen on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:33 pm

I don't think anyone should take this playoffs as a total sample size of anyone on this team's ability. They were all over the place and no solid conclusions about anyone including Sutter can be determined.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Scott on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:54 pm

DelPen wrote:I don't think anyone should take this playoffs as a total sample size of anyone on this team's ability. They were all over the place and no solid conclusions about anyone including Sutter can be determined.

Yes 100 percent behind this post. To this point in time(one playoff outing) that is his performance. Trust me when I tell ya I hope that all changes moving forward. I want Sutter to succeed. I want our 3rd line center to be more balanced and play at both ends. We shall see.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby wondermoose on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:21 pm

DelPen wrote:I don't think anyone should take this playoffs as a total sample size of anyone on this team's ability. They were all over the place and no solid conclusions about anyone including Sutter can be determined.


Fleury notwithstanding, in my opinion. Also, Paul Martin was just amazing.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby mikey287 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:35 pm

So...what should Sutter have done considering he was gifted so many defensive zone starts? I mean, it seemed like the only time any non-Sutter center took a D-zone draw was because they were out for an icing. How much offense is he supposed to provide in that situational matching situation? He's also not much of a playmaker, he's more of a finisher if anything. He doesn't have great vision.

The third line lacked an offensive identity from the coaching staff. Our third line was a cycling line in 2009, get it deep and create from the below the icing line. That identity was lacking in 2013 and that posed some of our problems. But the line did extremely well defensively given the tough minutes they had to slog through...impressively so.

Any sort of shortcomings that Sutter had offensively are more of a product of Bylsma than Sutter's poor play. As he was terrific throughout, along with Matt Cooke.

It sounds like you'd be the Habs fan that's upset with Guy Carbonneau in '93...or the Wings fan upset with Kris Draper in '97...

Sutter got an assignment defensively and he did it. And did it well, so did Cooke, what should they have done differently?
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Rylan on Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:44 pm

mikey287 wrote:So...what should Sutter have done considering he was gifted so many defensive zone starts? I mean, it seemed like the only time any non-Sutter center took a D-zone draw was because they were out for an icing. How much offense is he supposed to provide in that situational matching situation? He's also not much of a playmaker, he's more of a finisher if anything. He doesn't have great vision.

The third line lacked an offensive identity from the coaching staff. Our third line was a cycling line in 2009, get it deep and create from the below the icing line. That identity was lacking in 2013 and that posed some of our problems. But the line did extremely well defensively given the tough minutes they had to slog through...impressively so.

Any sort of shortcomings that Sutter had offensively are more of a product of Bylsma than Sutter's poor play. As he was terrific throughout, along with Matt Cooke.

It sounds like you'd be the Habs fan that's upset with Guy Carbonneau in '93...or the Wings fan upset with Kris Draper in '97...

Sutter got an assignment defensively and he did it. And did it well, so did Cooke, what should they have done differently?


Sutter was 8th on the team in shots. Pretty good for a guy that played only defense. Off the top of my head I can think of 2 passes where either Cooke or Adams had chances to one time a cross ice pass for a scoring opportunity and missed. That is 2 more points. and he is up to 5 in 15 games and that is on pace for his season avg.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Scott on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:07 pm

mikey287 wrote:So...what should Sutter have done considering he was gifted so many defensive zone starts? I mean, it seemed like the only time any non-Sutter center took a D-zone draw was because they were out for an icing. How much offense is he supposed to provide in that situational matching situation? He's also not much of a playmaker, he's more of a finisher if anything. He doesn't have great vision.
What Sutter should have done was commit a little more to the offensive cause.
mikey287 wrote:The third line lacked an offensive identity from the coaching staff. Our third line was a cycling line in 2009, get it deep and create from the below the icing line. That identity was lacking in 2013 and that posed some of our problems. But the line did extremely well defensively given the tough minutes they had to slog through...impressively so.
So now we are back to blaming the coaches. One will never know if Bylsma should be blamed for the lack of identity on the 3rd line....or if that really falls 100 percent in the lap of Sutter. Again, the defensive end of things they did a fine job. But a little offense would have gone a long way.
mikey287 wrote:Any sort of shortcomings that Sutter had offensively are more of a product of Bylsma than Sutter's poor play. As he was terrific throughout, along with Matt Cooke.
And you know this how. How on earth do you know that Danny boy was not throwing chalk at the board screaming at Sutter to pull the string. You don't. What we do know is this. Sutter did not produce offense in any form of that word. That is fact. Why he didnt...speculation now isn't it.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby mikey287 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:15 pm

This is like the old Tyler Kennedy argument from other people that don't get it...

"If he were better, he'd be good..." cool, good talk.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:18 pm

"Sutter didn't produce on offense"

... the stat line from the ECF disagrees.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby sil on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:43 pm

Scott wrote:What Sutter should have done was commit a little more to the offensive cause.


Yep.

Spoiler:
I also think Malkin should've too...and Sid...and Kunitz...and Neal...oh, and Iginla...that Morrow guy...Bennett didn't commit enough...neither did Cooke, and also Kennedy WTH!? Adams didn't commit...nada for Vitale...same with Jokinen...no offensive commitment from Glass...Orpik had no "O", neither did Letang...and the same goes for Martin and Eaton...and also Murray that offensive non-committer! Engellend didn't commit...and neither did Despres...where was Niskanen offensively...and Bortuzzo, what an offensive slouch.

I guess that's it...eh, why not...Vokoun and Fleury...no offensive commitment whatsoever.

Damn.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Bioshock on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:56 pm

Scott wrote:
mikey287 wrote:So...what should Sutter have done considering he was gifted so many defensive zone starts? I mean, it seemed like the only time any non-Sutter center took a D-zone draw was because they were out for an icing. How much offense is he supposed to provide in that situational matching situation? He's also not much of a playmaker, he's more of a finisher if anything. He doesn't have great vision.
What Sutter should have done was commit a little more to the offensive cause.
mikey287 wrote:The third line lacked an offensive identity from the coaching staff. Our third line was a cycling line in 2009, get it deep and create from the below the icing line. That identity was lacking in 2013 and that posed some of our problems. But the line did extremely well defensively given the tough minutes they had to slog through...impressively so.
So now we are back to blaming the coaches. One will never know if Bylsma should be blamed for the lack of identity on the 3rd line....or if that really falls 100 percent in the lap of Sutter. Again, the defensive end of things they did a fine job. But a little offense would have gone a long way.
mikey287 wrote:Any sort of shortcomings that Sutter had offensively are more of a product of Bylsma than Sutter's poor play. As he was terrific throughout, along with Matt Cooke.
And you know this how. How on earth do you know that Danny boy was not throwing chalk at the board screaming at Sutter to pull the string. You don't. What we do know is this. Sutter did not produce offense in any form of that word. That is fact. Why he didnt...speculation now isn't it.


Scott.... :face:
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Chefpatrick871 on Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:32 am

Lots of lulz here. Really dude, challenging Jesse and Mikey about knowledge of the game. Hilarious.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Scott on Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:31 am

MRandall25 wrote:"Sutter didn't produce on offense"

... the stat line from the ECF disagrees.


You know exactly how that statement was meant. Really as a whole did he produce offense in the playoffs in 2013? If you think yes, then your expectations of any NHL player are putrid.

3 points in 15 playoff games from a third line player logging a decent amount of minutes. Centering a line that has absolutely no identity. You don't want to blame him for that? Ok. But then you must point out that he certainly did his share of contribution to that line lacking an identity.

Mr, Randall...here is the funny thing with you...and you are not alone with this...you just sit in the middle and snipe posts off here and there never really siding one way or the other.

When Bylsma was on the LGP hot seat you were belly aching around that the players should get the blame and bylsma should nearly be a coach of the year. Then when players get blamed, oh dear lord how could that be. Don't blame the players, there are other things that went wrong.

You don't have to be neutral on every topic as well..or slip back and forth. Get a concrete opinion on something and stick with it. You may be wrong, you may be right. It is a message board for christ sake. But quit bouncing around sniping posts with your little one line comments. Add to the discussion in one way or the other but either get in the damn discussion or pass it by. Spare those gigantic amazingly thought out three word comments you love to throw around.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:14 am

Well, you clearly missed my post showing that Sutter was right on par statistically with other 3rd lline centers.

Clearly not my fault there. I'm giving you as much effort as you're putting in right now. Which is to say, very little.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Jasmine on Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:34 pm

Maybe Dan Bylsma tried to make Sutter into Staal. After all, he misused half the team this shortened season. Sutter would be better just being Sutter.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby penny lane on Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:07 pm

Jasmine wrote:Maybe Dan Bylsma tried to make Sutter into Staal. After all, he misused half the team this shortened season. Sutter would be better just being Sutter.

Damn straight!
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