If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:11 pm

Pitts wrote:So, speaking of one player -- only one player -- Craig Adams...does he need to get more balance to his game because he only scores 1 goal a year? And, isn't particularly good defensively truth be told?


Anything a 4th line gives you on offense is a bonus.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Scott on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:31 pm

Pitts wrote:When you have Crosby, Malkin, (the much loved ) Dupuis, Iginla, Neal, etc...your 3rd line center shouldn't really have to worry much about offense.


And he doesn't. The problem is he doesn't worry about offense whatsoever. If he does then he just doesn't have the ability to be a teams third line center. He is 4th line material. He is give the top guys rest material without hurting us. Him centering the third line makes the Pens a two line team. Period.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Rylan on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:40 pm

If you don't score you are 4th line material? That may be one of the dumbest things I have read today. EVERY HOCKEY TEAM IS A 2 LINE TEAM. Honestly, tell me what 3rd lines in hockey are so potent offensively that they make the team a 3 line hockey team? Because I am not going to waste my time to disprove such a silly and a joke of a notion.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:59 pm

Everything I read from Scott appears as "I'm mad because he isn't Jordan Staal"
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:47 pm

Rylan wrote:If you don't score you are 4th line material? That may be one of the dumbest things I have read today. EVERY HOCKEY TEAM IS A 2 LINE TEAM. Honestly, tell me what 3rd lines in hockey are so potent offensively that they make the team a 3 line hockey team? Because I am not going to waste my time to disprove such a silly and a joke of a notion.


I mean...there's the Blackhawks, most famously.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Rylan on Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:59 pm

So a team who statistically is extremely similar to the Pens production is the team you choose? Go through the point production of both teams and they are extremely similar in layout.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:06 pm

What are you on about?

If you think the hawks third line and the pens third line are similar, I don't even know what to say.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Rylan on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:17 pm

Statistical production? Yes that is what I am going to say. And I would take Sutter's defense over some perceived idea that offense is the only way to win hockey games. If you have 2 of the best players in the world, someone on the team has to play defense.

Of the players on the 3rd line for the Blackhawks last night, Saad had 27 points in the regular season, Stahlberg had 23, and Shaw had 18. The Pens 3rd line of Cooke, Sutter, and TK. was 21,19, and 11. Morrow had 14, Bennett had 14, Jokinen had 11, Jeffrey had 6 while playing on different lines. That is similar production. So yes, that is what I am on about.

The playoffs were different. That is fine as an example right now. You would be right, but over the long haul this year Sutter has been comparable.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:29 pm

Take a look at Shaw and Bickel lately and let us know if chicago is a 2 line team. That's what started this tangent anyways.

And those numbers aren't even similar enough to help your point.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Rylan on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:34 pm

Wait really? Aside from Saad (who played on the 1st and 2nd lines throughout the season as well as the PP), the numbers are similar.

Shaw and Bickel are playing well this postseason. And I said statistical production in the playoffs you have a side to play. But, Sutter's prevention of goals is just as important as the scoring of goals. Cooke had a fantastic playoffs and only had 4 points. If offensive production is the on;y avenue you use in determining the value of a player you are wrong. The Pens 3rd line did its job, unlike the top 2 lines. If anything, the only lines worth their weight were the 3rd and 4th lines against the Bruins.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:40 pm

There are unlimited escape clauses here, so I guess this has run its course.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby mikey287 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:24 pm

Rylan wrote:Wait really? Aside from Saad (who played on the 1st and 2nd lines throughout the season as well as the PP), the numbers are similar.

Shaw and Bickel are playing well this postseason. And I said statistical production in the playoffs you have a side to play. But, Sutter's prevention of goals is just as important as the scoring of goals. Cooke had a fantastic playoffs and only had 4 points. If offensive production is the on;y avenue you use in determining the value of a player you are wrong. The Pens 3rd line did its job, unlike the top 2 lines. If anything, the only lines worth their weight were the 3rd and 4th lines against the Bruins.


Closest post to reality in the last several.

Penguins "third line"
Line: Cooke - Sutter - TK (+1 Bennett)
ES Pts: 21 -- 15 -- 8 ---- 17 (pace)

Blackhawks "third line"
Line: Bickell - Shaw - Stalberg (+1 Kruger)
ES Pts: 23 -- 13 -- 21 -------- 11

All but Kruger spent time on the top line at some point this year for Chicago. Only Bennett really saw any legitimate time in the Penguins top six. Kennedy had a poor year by most accounts (30 ES points in 60 games in 2011-12).

Pittsburgh: 111 ES goals
Chicago: 115 ES goals

We'll start with some raw numbers and then we'll see what happens...
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Scott on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:03 am

MRandall25 wrote:Everything I read from Scott appears as "I'm mad because he isn't Jordan Staal"


That is the best you can come up with? Seriously?

I don't care who is the 3rd center as long as they make the 3rd line balanced and hard to play against. The Pens have no balance with the third line. None. Zip. I don't care who is wearing the sweater in the 3rd center spot....the Pens need balance there. Hard to play against? Spare me. If anything else the third might be the easiest to play against out side of Cooke's hits here and there.

You folks who think offense only comes from points and goals need to take a breathe and read the next segment. The 3rd line could be very effective if they even possessed the puck. Let's just forget actual scoring for a sec..let's say the 3rd line doesn't score but they possess the puck for the majority of their shifts. That not only means the other team does not have the puck but it also exhausts the other team's defense. That in turn allows for a better match up for the top six forwards when they come on the ice going against a more worn out defense.

Can you honestly say the Pens third line does any of that? NO. What we will have are all the Sutter apologists who will once again point out how he magically blocked more shots than all forwards or something of that nature. If that is the stat you are going to hang the hat on...ok :roll:
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Scott on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:11 am

Pitts wrote:When you have Crosby, Malkin, (the much loved ) Dupuis, Iginla, Neal, etc...your 3rd line center shouldn't really have to worry much about offense.


Good lord. How did that work out in the last series the Pittsburgh Penguins played? Offensive depth is way overrated until you actually need it. RIGHT? :face: Good lord
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Pitts on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:11 am

shmenguin wrote:There are unlimited escape clauses here, so I guess this has run its course.

It surely has.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Pitts on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:13 am

Scott wrote:
Pitts wrote:When you have Crosby, Malkin, (the much loved ) Dupuis, Iginla, Neal, etc...your 3rd line center shouldn't really have to worry much about offense.


Good lord. How did that work out in the last series the Pittsburgh Penguins played? Offensive depth is way overrated until you actually need it. RIGHT? :face: Good lord

lol...so you're ragging on Sutter because our high powered offense crapped their collective shorts? Sorry, place the blame where it belongs - on the top 2 lines. Sutter scored, they did not.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Rylan on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:15 am

This defense you speak of...you know the bottom pairing of the defense crew that rarely if ever faces the top 2 lines. Are those the guys you are going to tire out? Cause if so, against a coach that matches lines that is for naught. Unless you are hoping to catch the team tired in their own end which may happen once a game per line anyhow. And why does that all fall on Sutter? Why is he the only one that you feel is responsible for this? He plays his role as a 3rd line defensive specialist. If you can't see the value in a potential Selke candidate then you are as misguided as you accuse us "apologists" of being.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby ziggo on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:08 am

Gotta do something to get the post count up.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Scott on Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:25 am

Rylan wrote:This defense you speak of...you know the bottom pairing of the defense crew that rarely if ever faces the top 2 lines. Are those the guys you are going to tire out? Cause if so, against a coach that matches lines that is for naught. Unless you are hoping to catch the team tired in their own end which may happen once a game per line anyhow. And why does that all fall on Sutter? Why is he the only one that you feel is responsible for this? He plays his role as a 3rd line defensive specialist. If you can't see the value in a potential Selke candidate then you are as misguided as you accuse us "apologists" of being.


You show your knowledge colors in full with this post.
#1...the offense will see the lower defensive duo at points in the game. it just always happens. On the same token the top pairing will see time against our third line. Again those both happen at several points in the game.

#2 how on earth do you just dismiss puck possession and how it takes a toll on the other team...regardless of match ups? I know the answer. You dismiss it because the 3rd line does not have that quality. Moreover what about the toll it takes on the forwards. How about the glaring fact that if you have the puck odds increase your team scores and odds increase the other team does not. The 3rd line

#3 By your own admission the 3rd line is playing against the lowest of pairings by the other team. Which makes the lack of possession and production that much more ridiculous.

#4 I see the value in a balanced 3rd line center who understands there are two ends of the rink.

#5 Sutter is a 4th line center playing in the #3 spot. SADLY!

#6 If you pair him with other 3rd liners who make some kind of attempt to play a little offense it is always a two forward show...often times a one forward show. If you line him up with defense only forwards then you concede to the other team your 3rd line will always play on its heels.

#7 Here was a guarantee this playoff run with the 3rd line. At some point every shift they would have to take a face off in their own zone. Sometimes that was more than once...per shift! :face: You don't think that is a bit much? You don't think that Sutter's defensive numbers are a tad inflated by the fact that moment he hits the ice he is skating backwards. C'mon!

#8 Potential selke candidate? Have you gone mad. What on earth does that even mean. You could say that every year about half the forwards in the NHL..."POTENTIAL selke candidate" potential potential potential.

#9 Why does this get pinned on Sutter? Because he keeps the 3rd line from having an identity. He is so committed to playing defense it renders the 3rd line forwards a two man show..and often a one man show. This equates into puck possession next to zero and good scoring chances next to nothing.

#10 15 playoff games. 3 points. Same amount of goals as Doug Murray. :roll: Same points as Mark Eaton. Eaton played in half the game Sutter did. You know those two guys are as defensive as defensmen come...Right? Jokinen in half the games had 3 points. Finished with a plus 3. Sutter? The Selke candidate..cough cough..potential candidate finished with a minus 1 Please know because someone will spin this saying I said jokinen should be over Sutter...I am just pointing out how terribly one dimensional Sutter's game is. That number is still pretty gloom and doom. Amazing actually. 3 points in 15 games
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Steve Dave on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:57 am

Just a note... In 2009, Dupuis had 0 points in 16 games played.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:35 am

I'm not really on board with a lot of what Scott's saying, but Sutter's about as close to a Selke candidate as ovechkin. You have to excel in both zones for that award.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Bioshock on Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:07 am

Sutter... 4th line player? Lol, cool story bro.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:04 am

shmenguin wrote:
Rylan wrote:If you don't score you are 4th line material? That may be one of the dumbest things I have read today. EVERY HOCKEY TEAM IS A 2 LINE TEAM. Honestly, tell me what 3rd lines in hockey are so potent offensively that they make the team a 3 line hockey team? Because I am not going to waste my time to disprove such a silly and a joke of a notion.


I mean...there's the Blackhawks, most famously.


Funny story

Dave Bolland 2013 7+7=14 in 35 games = 0.4 points per game
Brandon Sutter 2013 11+8=19 in 48 games = 0.3958 points per game
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:08 am

Going further
Matt Cooke 8+13
Brian Bickel 9+14

Shaw 9+6
Kennedy 6+5

Looks to me like the Pens and Hawks balance out pretty close on the third line. The reason the Pens outscored them this season is that their top two lines are that much better than the Hawks'.
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Re: If shero had kept Jordan Staal... Do the pens win?

Postby Beveridge on Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:45 am

This thread got weird.

There are a several dozen reasons that can be pointed out on why Pens lost to Bruins.

Brandon Sutter falls somewhere in between Despres not getting any playing time and Jeffrey not getting any playing time.
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