Kunitz Extension

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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:02 pm

Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:03 pm

topshelf wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
topshelf wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:To me your premise is its ok to overpay for chemistry. You would think that chemistry would atleast net 1 goal in 4 games.


$3.85 million is underpaying for Kunitz.

By your logic, I could say that you would think two guys making more than 8 mil a year could net at least a goal in a series, so therefore they are overpaid, right?


There is no way that 3.85M is underpaying Kunitz at ages 35, 36 and 37. I will gladly pay 8M for a player like Crosby or Malkin in their prime.


Do you think he's overpaid for this upcoming season? Guys that put in his numbers are getting 5 mil. a season.

If we look at averages, last season was Chris Kunitz's best season of his entire career in goals, assists, and points. He also scored more goals in they playoffs than in any other year, and scored only four less points than he did in the '09 playoffs (in 9 less games). He had more points this year than Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Kessel, Towes, Giroux, Zetterberg, Tavares, both Sedins, Nash, Semin, etc.

I'd say he took a pay cut, and even if his production slacks, is still in his wheelhouse.

Considering Kunitz was still under contract for this upcoming season no.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:03 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
topshelf wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:To me your premise is its ok to overpay for chemistry. You would think that chemistry would atleast net 1 goal in 4 games.


$3.85 million is underpaying for Kunitz.

By your logic, I could say that you would think two guys making more than 8 mil a year could net at least a goal in a series, so therefore they are overpaid, right?


There is no way that 3.85M is underpaying Kunitz at ages 35, 36 and 37. I will gladly pay 8M for a player like Crosby or Malkin in their prime.


Alex Tanguay is the same age and is making $3.5M a year until 2016 and his production has dropped 40 points since 2010-2011.

Johan Franzen is also the same age as Kunitz and is making almost $4M a year (cap hit) until 2020 for similar production to Kunitz since his extension went into place.

I'd say $3.85 is just about right for a player like Kunitz.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby Dickie Dunn on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:06 pm

This thread has been another solid reminder of a LGP truth: Every player should be a superstar; if they're not a superstar they are automatically overpaid.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby topshelf on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:07 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.


Flawed logic. If Kunitz repeats what he did last year, we run the potential of him walking for much more money. You act like he got a $2 mil. raise. The guy took a minimal bump.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:07 pm

I dont think its good business to match other teams bad deals by signing a bad deal of your own.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby meow on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:07 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.

You want to take a risk and have to possibly pay him over $4mil a year after next year? That's a bigger risk than locking him up now, in my opinion.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby steelershark on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:08 pm

Are nhl contracts guaranteed? If after 2 years of the new contract if he decides to retire, do you still have to pay him? Or can you cut him?
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby MarioLives on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:08 pm

"The only one of those I'd say is worth 4M or more is St. Louis. But that's not even part of the argument. Currently there are a whole 6 forwards 35 or older in the NHL. It's not an old man's game. Kunitz is approaching that old man status. The odds of him having another career year are not very good. If someone put odds on Kunitz repeating or bettering his career season or declining, declining takes the bet every time. You just don't pay guys like that a lot of money in the cap era if you want to be a contending team."

That is nuts. I had no idea there were only 6 people that age or older. Maybe it was a mistake, but the Pens really have no other options.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:09 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I dont think its good business to match other teams bad deals by signing a bad deal of your own.


But it's not a bad deal. No one is matching anyone else's deal.

I'm just pointing out that you could do much worse than Chris Kunitz for similar money.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby topshelf on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:09 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I dont think its good business to match other teams bad deals by signing a bad deal of your own.


Who's bad deals did Shero match? I can't wait to hear this...

The numbers show that Kunitz is under paid and has decided to remain that way.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:10 pm

topshelf wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.


Flawed logic. If Kunitz repeats what he did last year, we run the potential of him walking for much more money. You act like he got a $2 mil. raise. The guy took a minimal bump.


Who is going to pay a 35 year old guy 4M a year? Especially when his totals have been elevated by playing with one of the best players in the world?

It happened in 5 instances and its worked out once?
Last edited by thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:10 pm

steelershark wrote:Are nhl contracts guaranteed? If after 2 years of the new contract if he decides to retire, do you still have to pay him? Or can you cut him?


It isn't a 35+ contract because it was signed/will go into effect before he turns 35, I think.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:11 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
steelershark wrote:Are nhl contracts guaranteed? If after 2 years of the new contract if he decides to retire, do you still have to pay him? Or can you cut him?


It isn't a 35+ contract because it was signed/will go into effect before he turns 35, I think.


He turns 34 this september.

He will turn 35 prior to the start of next season. But your right it takes effect July 1st. He turns 35 in Sept
Last edited by thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby meow on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:11 pm

guru is out of control right now
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:13 pm

meow wrote:guru is out of control right now


I'm going to stop, the others who think he was overpaid have.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:14 pm

meow wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.

You want to take a risk and have to possibly pay him over $4mil a year after next year? That's a bigger risk than locking him up now, in my opinion.

You let him walk then, there are other players in FA you know. Heck I'd say the Pens would have a good amount of leverage. He likes it here, his family is now entrenched here, he plays with one of the best players in the world... AND if he doesn't want to play here then guess what the Pens can look at the likes of these guys http://capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id ... _type_id=2 to replace him.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:15 pm

MarioLives wrote:"The only one of those I'd say is worth 4M or more is St. Louis. But that's not even part of the argument. Currently there are a whole 6 forwards 35 or older in the NHL. It's not an old man's game. Kunitz is approaching that old man status. The odds of him having another career year are not very good. If someone put odds on Kunitz repeating or bettering his career season or declining, declining takes the bet every time. You just don't pay guys like that a lot of money in the cap era if you want to be a contending team."

That is nuts. I had no idea there were only 6 people that age or older. Maybe it was a mistake, but the Pens really have no other options.

6 forwards currently under contract that are 35 or older.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby topshelf on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:17 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
topshelf wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.


Flawed logic. If Kunitz repeats what he did last year, we run the potential of him walking for much more money. You act like he got a $2 mil. raise. The guy took a minimal bump.


Who is going to pay a 35 year old guy 4M a year? Especially when his totals have been elevated by playing with one of the best players in the world?

It happened in 5 instances and its worked out once?


Jagr is making Kunitz money now, and Kunitz's production has been far better than Jagr's in the past two years.

5 instances? What does that mean?
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby meow on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:18 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.

You want to take a risk and have to possibly pay him over $4mil a year after next year? That's a bigger risk than locking him up now, in my opinion.

You let him walk then, there are other players in FA you know. Heck I'd say the Pens would have a good amount of leverage. He likes it here, his family is now entrenched here, he plays with one of the best players in the world... AND if he doesn't want to play here then guess what the Pens can look at the likes of these guys http://capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id ... _type_id=2 to replace him.

Look at the guys making less that $4mil. Pretty underwhelming list
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:19 pm

meow wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.

You want to take a risk and have to possibly pay him over $4mil a year after next year? That's a bigger risk than locking him up now, in my opinion.

You let him walk then, there are other players in FA you know. Heck I'd say the Pens would have a good amount of leverage. He likes it here, his family is now entrenched here, he plays with one of the best players in the world... AND if he doesn't want to play here then guess what the Pens can look at the likes of these guys http://capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id ... _type_id=2 to replace him.

Look at the guys making less that $4mil. Pretty underwhelming list

Plenty of guys that could and have averaged 40-50 points a season ala Kunitz.
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby topshelf on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:21 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.

You want to take a risk and have to possibly pay him over $4mil a year after next year? That's a bigger risk than locking him up now, in my opinion.

You let him walk then, there are other players in FA you know. Heck I'd say the Pens would have a good amount of leverage. He likes it here, his family is now entrenched here, he plays with one of the best players in the world... AND if he doesn't want to play here then guess what the Pens can look at the likes of these guys http://capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id ... _type_id=2 to replace him.


Look at your link and at who is making a similar cap hit to Kunitz. Who do we replace Kuntiz with... Stajan?
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby Dickie Dunn on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:23 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.

You want to take a risk and have to possibly pay him over $4mil a year after next year? That's a bigger risk than locking him up now, in my opinion.

You let him walk then, there are other players in FA you know. Heck I'd say the Pens would have a good amount of leverage. He likes it here, his family is now entrenched here, he plays with one of the best players in the world... AND if he doesn't want to play here then guess what the Pens can look at the likes of these guys http://capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id ... _type_id=2 to replace him.

Look at the guys making less that $4mil. Pretty underwhelming list

Plenty of guys that could and have averaged 40-50 points a season ala Kunitz.


Who exactly on that list making under $4 million would you take over Kunitz?
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby topshelf on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:24 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Like mentioned before, I would take the chance that he regresses this coming season and you get a discount. If he doesnt, you pay him. There is NO benefit to locking him up now.

You want to take a risk and have to possibly pay him over $4mil a year after next year? That's a bigger risk than locking him up now, in my opinion.

You let him walk then, there are other players in FA you know. Heck I'd say the Pens would have a good amount of leverage. He likes it here, his family is now entrenched here, he plays with one of the best players in the world... AND if he doesn't want to play here then guess what the Pens can look at the likes of these guys http://capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id ... _type_id=2 to replace him.

Look at the guys making less that $4mil. Pretty underwhelming list

Plenty of guys that could and have averaged 40-50 points a season ala Kunitz.


I don't see one guy who is putting up Kunitz's numbers and ISN'T getting ready to cash it in on their next deal (Dustin Brown).
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Re: Kunitz Extension

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:27 pm

Dickie Dunn wrote:Who exactly on that list making under $4 million would you take over Kunitz?


I'd say Vrbata, but like topshelf said, he's going to make bank his next deal.

Also, holy hell I can't believe the Blackhawks were paying Bolland $3.375M.
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