The Pens direction so far

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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby shafnutz05 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:40 pm

shmenguin wrote:Our bottom 6 looks like its going to be the worst it's been since 05. I guess I shouldn't doubt shero's ability to make moves, but as it stands, you can't go far in the playoffs with what we have now.


Very true. Having Crosby, Malkin, and Letang is pretty cool, but if the rest of our lineup is a bunch of plugins, it's impossible to expect much.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:42 pm

bhaw wrote:On topic... I don't mind any of the contracts by themselves. I just look at the team as a whole and it's almost exactly like last year and the year before. Good for stability, but with the same coach and same players, what's going to change the outcome of their season? Since the Cup, the Pens have been the Washington Capitals of the last half dozen years (except last year's Caps). In the regular season, the Pens go on huge stretches of wins and phenomenal play. Then as soon as they hit a legit opponent in the playoffs, they become the world's easiest Rubrics Cube to solve.

If the intention was to keep Disco around, I would have hoped they made some kind of personnel change. If Shero and company don't believe that the coach is the issue (by way of extending him) then it has to be the players no executing his system that is causing the laughable playoff performances is MTL, PHI, and BOS (since we have to ignore TB). Obviously you're not trading Sid or Malkin, so I would have figured some kind of change was due elsewhere. As of now, that's not the case, so I'm confused: either they think that the complete team breakdowns (2 historical in nature) are purely coincidence/bad luck or they are content with the last 4 seasons.


They just might be content. They have continuous sellouts and are basically printing money. A very successful business model.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:46 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Our bottom 6 looks like its going to be the worst it's been since 05. I guess I shouldn't doubt shero's ability to make moves, but as it stands, you can't go far in the playoffs with what we have now.


Very true. Having Crosby, Malkin, and Letang is pretty cool, but if the rest of our lineup is a bunch of plugins, it's impossible to expect much.


I wouldn't say the entire bottom 6 is bad. I'd be happy if there is someone competent with Sutter and Jokinen on the 3rd line (not sure if Jokinen will be there). That's the start of a very solid/responsible 3rd line. They just need that third piece that's good at forechecking. Jokinen becomes the shooter on that line.

Fourth line is pretty "meh" but no more "meh" than most teams. It's definitely not as good as in the past, but I'm not terribly concerned about it yet.

I think the 3rd line gets upgraded mid-season if we start with what we have. I'm not sure how much they do to the 4th line given how little they get played in the playoffs. I actually think Zolyernick (sp?) gets a good amount of time. He brings some nastiness that Adams does not and had a year under his belt with Philly. Point being, I don't think he's AHL fodder like many people figured he would be.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:47 pm

True but it is a whole lot easier to replace Bottom 6 players ... Do you propose we sign a 3rd liner for 2.5mil plus?
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:54 pm

taz71 wrote:True but it is a whole lot easier to replace Bottom 6 players ... Do you propose we sign a 3rd liner for 2.5mil plus?


I don't know the answer, but it might involve drafting some capable forwards that work their way up the lineup.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:00 pm

offsides wrote:
bhaw wrote:On topic... I don't mind any of the contracts by themselves. I just look at the team as a whole and it's almost exactly like last year and the year before. Good for stability, but with the same coach and same players, what's going to change the outcome of their season? Since the Cup, the Pens have been the Washington Capitals of the last half dozen years (except last year's Caps). In the regular season, the Pens go on huge stretches of wins and phenomenal play. Then as soon as they hit a legit opponent in the playoffs, they become the world's easiest Rubrics Cube to solve.

If the intention was to keep Disco around, I would have hoped they made some kind of personnel change. If Shero and company don't believe that the coach is the issue (by way of extending him) then it has to be the players no executing his system that is causing the laughable playoff performances is MTL, PHI, and BOS (since we have to ignore TB). Obviously you're not trading Sid or Malkin, so I would have figured some kind of change was due elsewhere. As of now, that's not the case, so I'm confused: either they think that the complete team breakdowns (2 historical in nature) are purely coincidence/bad luck or they are content with the last 4 seasons.


They just might be content. They have continuous sellouts and are basically printing money. A very successful business model.


I don't buy that yet. If they didn't have a desire to win, they wouldn't be spending to the cap. Buffalo was the most business like team I've seen for the last decade plus. If you watch them, they got rid of anyone who wanted decent money (Briere, Drury, etc) and kept Ruff for a long time because he took a mediocre team that didn't cost a ton and made them at least semi-competitive every year. If the Pens were only concerned about the business, Letang probably wouldn't be here. His economic ROI (not the mythical hockey player ability ROI) is pretty minimal when you have Sid and Malkin.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Boogeyman on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:00 pm

So embarrassing that we acquire hall of fame player, who can still play at a fairly high level, completely misuse him, fan base thinks he's old and slow when really the coach, who got extended mind you, is incompetent. Said player is then passed over to sign a career grinder who threw together a couple decent seasons, but will probably fail now that he has "expectations" to go along with his 2 million dollar pay raise.

This organization is so dense.

ALL IN though. All in indeed.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby brwi on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:01 pm

bhaw wrote:On topic... I don't mind any of the contracts by themselves. I just look at the team as a whole and it's almost exactly like last year and the year before. Good for stability, but with the same coach and same players, what's going to change the outcome of their season? Since the Cup, the Pens have been the Washington Capitals of the last half dozen years (except last year's Caps). In the regular season, the Pens go on huge stretches of wins and phenomenal play. Then as soon as they hit a legit opponent in the playoffs, they become the world's easiest Rubrics Cube to solve.

If the intention was to keep Disco around, I would have hoped they made some kind of personnel change. If Shero and company don't believe that the coach is the issue (by way of extending him) then it has to be the players no executing his system that is causing the laughable playoff performances is MTL, PHI, and BOS (since we have to ignore TB). Obviously you're not trading Sid or Malkin, so I would have figured some kind of change was due elsewhere. As of now, that's not the case, so I'm confused: either they think that the complete team breakdowns (2 historical in nature) are purely coincidence/bad luck or they are content with the last 4 seasons.


:thumb:

Looks like they are writing it off as "bad luck."

I have no problem with signing Scuderi because Niskanen has shown the last two playoffs that he cannot play under pressure whatsoever and becomes a real liability. I get that. Scuderi can and will do everything possible to stop opponents and I'm glad to have him back. CFA at any price? I don't understand. Letting cooke go for 2.5mil/yr I don't understand either because there went a big part of the PK out the window and some hitting and grit.

Pens are going to be getting old and DB and the entire organization hasn't shown anything as far as developing young players. I understand the Pens draft very late. I understand the Pens also like to move picks and prospects for better, established players. At some point though, you have to develop some of your own young talent or count on pulling miracles out of your backside like getting a Datsyuk in the 6th round or Zetterberg in the 7th and then DEVELOPING them into studs instead of trade bait for temporary gain.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:05 pm

I just get the feeling that ownership weighed in about not re-signing Cooke. Just my speculating, but Mario may never have gotten over the embarrassment that Cooke brought to the team 2 years ago. I think he knew that the NHL was just waiting to suspend him again and didn't want the risk.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Beveridge on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:05 pm

Boogeyman wrote:So embarrassing that we acquire hall of fame player, who can still play at a fairly high level, completely misuse him, fan base thinks he's old and slow when really the coach, who got extended mind you, is incompetent. Said player is then passed over to sign a career grinder who threw together a couple decent seasons, but will probably fail now that he has "expectations" to go along with his 2 million dollar pay raise.

This organization is so dense.

ALL IN though. All in indeed.



You can't be serious about Dupuis. Haha, there is no way.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:05 pm

bhaw wrote:On topic... I don't mind any of the contracts by themselves. I just look at the team as a whole and it's almost exactly like last year and the year before. Good for stability, but with the same coach and same players, what's going to change the outcome of their season? Since the Cup, the Pens have been the Washington Capitals of the last half dozen years (except last year's Caps). In the regular season, the Pens go on huge stretches of wins and phenomenal play. Then as soon as they hit a legit opponent in the playoffs, they become the world's easiest Rubrics Cube to solve.

If the intention was to keep Disco around, I would have hoped they made some kind of personnel change. If Shero and company don't believe that the coach is the issue (by way of extending him) then it has to be the players no executing his system that is causing the laughable playoff performances is MTL, PHI, and BOS (since we have to ignore TB). Obviously you're not trading Sid or Malkin, so I would have figured some kind of change was due elsewhere. As of now, that's not the case, so I'm confused: either they think that the complete team breakdowns (2 historical in nature) are purely coincidence/bad luck or they are content with the last 4 seasons.


I believe you are right but would like to add something.

This seems to be common thinking..."Bylsma is very well liked among the players."
It's a lot easier to re-sign Malkin, Letang, Dupuis etc., if the coach not only isn't fired but is given an extension. Showing those players how the organization is standing behind one of the family, so to speak, regardless of another embarrassing playoff exit.
Some may think this is silly talk but I believe the Bylsma extension was more to get other players re-signed than anything else.

Personally unless the planets align just proper like, as they did in 2009, i don't see Bylsma winning another cup. He does not LEAD this team whatsoever. He does not COACH this team outside of just bearing the title.

There will be Bylsma apologists freaking out about that but I say again for the millionth time, since the Cup, has Bylsma put the Penguins in the best possible chances and situations to succeed in the playoffs?
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:06 pm

I think the biggest difference is the huge departure from Shero's original plan that got us the Cup in the first place... getting big tough players who hit and make life miserable on opponents. We literally have no one left in the top 9, besides Kunitz (who's age is preventing it more and more) who is a big, physical guy who will hit other teams. Even our 4th line isn't really going to do that. It's very odd where he went from total man-love for the 3rd and 4th liners that were big bruisers to the point we questioned how many we need to now, where we don't have ANY of those guys.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Beveridge on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:09 pm

The odds are also greater that if Bylsma never enters the picture we have zero cups instead of the one.

I don't care that we have Crosby and Malkin. This isn't the NBA. It's hard to win the cup. How many good coaches are there that haven't won the cup?
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby farnham16 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:10 pm

I don't think Bylsma hates young players, but he most certainly does not trust them. He is way more comfortable with the Adams and Engellands of the world than he is with the Bennetts and Despres.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:12 pm

farnham16 wrote:I don't think Bylsma hates young players, but he most certainly does not trust them. He is way more comfortable with the Adams and Engellands of the world than he is with the Bennetts and Despres.


Are you bobby?
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:15 pm

Beveridge wrote:The odds are also greater that if Bylsma never enters the picture we have zero cups instead of the one.

I don't care that we have Crosby and Malkin. This isn't the NBA. It's hard to win the cup. How many good coaches are there that haven't won the cup?


It's not easy in the NBA either. Having said that with the material the Pens have better playoff performances should have happened. You avoided the actualy question though...like most who defend him...since the cup, in the playoffs can you really say bylsma has put the pens in the utmost best position to succeed.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:16 pm

bhaw wrote:
offsides wrote:
bhaw wrote:On topic... I don't mind any of the contracts by themselves. I just look at the team as a whole and it's almost exactly like last year and the year before. Good for stability, but with the same coach and same players, what's going to change the outcome of their season? Since the Cup, the Pens have been the Washington Capitals of the last half dozen years (except last year's Caps). In the regular season, the Pens go on huge stretches of wins and phenomenal play. Then as soon as they hit a legit opponent in the playoffs, they become the world's easiest Rubrics Cube to solve.

If the intention was to keep Disco around, I would have hoped they made some kind of personnel change. If Shero and company don't believe that the coach is the issue (by way of extending him) then it has to be the players no executing his system that is causing the laughable playoff performances is MTL, PHI, and BOS (since we have to ignore TB). Obviously you're not trading Sid or Malkin, so I would have figured some kind of change was due elsewhere. As of now, that's not the case, so I'm confused: either they think that the complete team breakdowns (2 historical in nature) are purely coincidence/bad luck or they are content with the last 4 seasons.


They just might be content. They have continuous sellouts and are basically printing money. A very successful business model.


I don't buy that yet. If they didn't have a desire to win, they wouldn't be spending to the cap. Buffalo was the most business like team I've seen for the last decade plus. If you watch them, they got rid of anyone who wanted decent money (Briere, Drury, etc) and kept Ruff for a long time because he took a mediocre team that didn't cost a ton and made them at least semi-competitive every year. If the Pens were only concerned about the business, Letang probably wouldn't be here. His economic ROI (not the mythical hockey player ability ROI) is pretty minimal when you have Sid and Malkin.


They also could be signing Letang and company for the entertainment value. People won't pay those high seat prices unless they are entertained with a competitive team or entertaining players. They have to keep good players to keep the seats full.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:18 pm

Beveridge wrote:I don't care that we have Crosby and Malkin.


If your premise is that Malkin, Crosby, Letang, Neal, Kunitz, and all the rentals we have had don't matter, there's not much to argue.

I will say that one team that is built very similar to ours has won 2 Cups since our win. They didn't even need Crosby or Malkin to do it.

Also, the expectation isn't Cup. The expectation isn't to have the 2nd lowest scoring 4 game series by 1 team in the history of the NHL when you have those guys on your team. The expectation isn't to give up whatever historical number of goals we gave up to the Flyers while simultaneously mentally falling apart and taking ridiculous numbers of intentional, bad penalties and suspensions and looking like the coach has ZERO control over the actions of his team.

If you people who defend DB at all costs would actually read the arguments instead of making them up, it would be easier to discuss. Instead it turns into "We can't win the Cup every year" (obvious and no one says they should) or "DB doesn't hate rookies" (which I think only a small hand full of fringe posters even say anything remotely close).
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Froggy on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:20 pm

Yeah, bhaw... You are right. No one ever criticizes Bylsma of keeping young players down. I must not know anything
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:21 pm

bhaw wrote:I think the biggest difference is the huge departure from Shero's original plan that got us the Cup in the first place... getting big tough players who hit and make life miserable on opponents. We literally have no one left in the top 9, besides Kunitz (who's age is preventing it more and more) who is a big, physical guy who will hit other teams. Even our 4th line isn't really going to do that. It's very odd where he went from total man-love for the 3rd and 4th liners that were big bruisers to the point we questioned how many we need to now, where we don't have ANY of those guys.


Agree with this. right now, Kunitz and Neal are our tough\pesky guys. Team looks pretty soff to me. Hopefully he isn't done yet.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:21 pm

buy low sell high. anyone else notice the disturbing lack of D available via UFA. we will have assets in high demand and be able to deal from a position of strength.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:23 pm

Froggy wrote:Yeah, bhaw... You are right. No one ever criticizes Bylsma of keeping young players down. I must not know anything


All you are throwing around is "Bylsma hates rookies." Plenty of people criticize DB of doing a poor job working with young players. I don't see anyone saying he hates them... as I pointed out, only one poster in this thread even said something remotely close.

I could similarly say the "Bylsma is the best coach ever at developing rookies" is the dumbest point ever on this board. So if you could stop claiming him to be the best developmental coach ever, that'd be great.

Image
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Beveridge on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:23 pm

Scott wrote:
Beveridge wrote:The odds are also greater that if Bylsma never enters the picture we have zero cups instead of the one.

I don't care that we have Crosby and Malkin. This isn't the NBA. It's hard to win the cup. How many good coaches are there that haven't won the cup?


It's not easy in the NBA either. Having said that with the material the Pens have better playoff performances should have happened. You avoided the actualy question though...like most who defend him...since the cup, in the playoffs can you really say bylsma has put the pens in the utmost best position to succeed.


I don't jack about game planning in the National Hockey League just like every other poster on this board. It's easy to say no based on results. I have no idea what the game plan is, how far off the players were from achieving the game plan, etc. The same results could have been had with a different coach for all we know.

I also defend ideas that are one sided without thought as to other possibilities - regardless of the individual.

I would tell you that I would have been perfectly fine if Pens had decided to go in another direction with another coach. I'm also fine that they kept him. Coaching or lack of coaching as vocal people here like to think has not been the sole reason for not winning another Cup. If that were the case, Mike Babcock, Dave Tippett, and other "real coaches" would be fired too.l
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby farnham16 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:24 pm

Look, the Pens believe in what they do 100%. That is clear. No changes have been made nor will they be. This team will be the same and will play the same this coming season. Older players are still going to be given priority over younger players.

The question is, will this team have learned from their mistakes come playoff time? That's all that matters.

I don't fully agree with Shero's plan right now. I think this team is way too old and I think its a mistake to not get younger guys in there. But hey, they are clearly still in "win now" mode and they believe they can only win with this group.

They better be right. Better win now.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby The Snapshot on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:28 pm

bhaw wrote:
Beveridge wrote:I don't care that we have Crosby and Malkin.


If your premise is that Malkin, Crosby, Letang, Neal, Kunitz, and all the rentals we have had don't matter, there's not much to argue.

I will say that one team that is built very similar to ours has won 2 Cups since our win. They didn't even need Crosby or Malkin to do it.

Also, the expectation isn't Cup. The expectation isn't to have the 2nd lowest scoring 4 game series by 1 team in the history of the NHL when you have those guys on your team. The expectation isn't to give up whatever historical number of goals we gave up to the Flyers while simultaneously mentally falling apart and taking ridiculous numbers of intentional, bad penalties and suspensions and looking like the coach has ZERO control over the actions of his team.

If you people who defend DB at all costs would actually read the arguments instead of making them up, it would be easier to discuss. Instead it turns into "We can't win the Cup every year" (obvious and no one says they should) or "DB doesn't hate rookies" (which I think only a small hand full of fringe posters even say anything remotely close).


What we have missed in the prospect pool now that Bennett has approached the promise he showed early, is the development of those players who can play the lesser roles with bigger impact. The guys who are in college - the Arichibalds, Brian Gibbons, these types - who reach the status of a "valuable 3rd liner". I guess Vitale is the best in terms of potential to do more than would be expected of a player in his role. This has become especially apparent in the playoffs these past years. We do not have that "where did that come from?" guy.

If you look through our prospect pool, I am not sure we have one in any professional role. Even Megna, while intriguing, is more of a low-risk, high reward type Top 6 project.

I know I was barking on draft day, but if you draft big bodied guys with skating ability and no offensive pedigree - you cannot teach size or speed and you DON'T need a big scoring resume from Juniors to evolve to a 20 pt. NHL forth liner. Our entire draft was 5-11", 160 lb scorers from crappy Junior Leagues.
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