The Pens direction so far

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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Froggy on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:33 pm

bhaw wrote:
Froggy wrote:Yeah, bhaw... You are right. No one ever criticizes Bylsma of keeping young players down. I must not know anything


All you are throwing around is "Bylsma hates rookies." Plenty of people criticize DB of doing a poor job working with young players. I don't see anyone saying he hates them... as I pointed out, only one poster in this thread even said something remotely close.

I could similarly say the "Bylsma is the best coach ever at developing rookies" is the dumbest point ever on this board. So if you could stop claiming him to be the best developmental coach ever, that'd be great.

Image

except no one is saying that. your point is invalid.


all the blame, none of the credit... typical dumb lgp criticism
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:42 pm

The Snapshot wrote:I know I was barking on draft day, but if you draft big bodied guys with skating ability and no offensive pedigree - you cannot teach size or speed and you DON'T need a big scoring resume from Juniors to evolve to a 20 pt. NHL forth liner. Our entire draft was 5-11", 160 lb scorers from crappy Junior Leagues.

I found that drafting tiny player after tiny player was a bit odd. I thought they must be close to being the fastest skaters in the world. I'm sure they aren't.

This might be more of a look what Pat Kane has done. He is tiny and has not only survived but is tough to defend.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Kaizer on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:49 pm

bhaw wrote:
Froggy wrote:The whole "bylsma hates rookies" is maybe the absolute dumbest criticism I've read on this board, and for those of you that are new, that is saying a lot


The only time the words "hate" and "rookies" crops up here is your post, just FYI (and now mine)



try "hates" not hate, then see.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Pavel Bure on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:51 pm

Agree with Scott. Bottom 6 is soft. Old team. Unreliable goalie. Canucks of the East in the making. I just don't like it...
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:53 pm

There have been plenty of people who've trotted out the "bylsma hates rookies" line. It's absurd that there's even a debate there.

Bylsma might be junk, but its not because of how he handles young players.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby KG on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:53 pm

Definitely a soft bottom 6 as of now. I still think Shero is going to make a move or two to toughen those lines up though...
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:55 pm

KG wrote:Definitely a soft bottom 6 as of now. I still think Shero is going to make a move or two to toughen those lines up though...


Not really a "soft" bottom 6. Adams, vitale, glass, and the porn guy aren't soft. They're just supremely untalented.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:57 pm

Froggy wrote:except no one is saying that. your point is invalid.


all the blame, none of the credit... typical dumb lgp criticism


No one is saying he hates rookies either (at least in this thread, where you felt the need to bring it up again), so what's your point? DB gets credit for another great regular season and beating the 16th and 14th best teams in the NHL. He gets the blame his team systematically crumbling vs Boston and Philly and Montreal. Funny how everyone who defends DB can only say "he adjusted" but can't describe what he did outside of changing the lineup.

It's dumb LGP criticism because the DB defenders refuse to read and acknowledge any time someone outlines exactly what he did wrong and comes back with generalized statements about all the people claiming DB "doesn't adjust" or "hates rookies."

This thread isn't even about DB.

try "hates" not hate, then see.


Still just Froggy trotting that line out in this thread. And the people talking about the quote. No one is actually saying DB hates rookies in this thread. Just sayin'
Last edited by bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Froggy on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:00 pm

and you are one of the more vocal and irrational byslma haters. The fact that you are blind to this is really disappointing.


and because i like you, i'm not going to carry on arguing a point that neither one of us is going to concede.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:01 pm

Didn't take long for this to turn negative. I really wouldn't spend much time analyzing this team cup wise until after the trade deadline. Most importantly right now this is easily a playoff team
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:06 pm

Froggy wrote:and you are one of the more vocal and irrational byslma haters. The fact that you are blind to this is really disappointing.


and because i like you, i'm not going to carry on arguing a point that neither one of us is going to concede.


Fair enough. I'm not expecting you to concede either.

I'm happy to point out anything people want about DB's massive playoff failures whenever they want. I've done so about his tactics after the NYI and during the BOS series and after the season. I can't help that people prefer to avoid actually talking about the system at play and would rather boil it down to adjusting and hating rookies. If people want to have the rational discussion, I'm more than willing to oblige. I probably just ignore most of the crap being referred to if it's there in mass and look for people actually discussing hockey. If you think it's irrational to dislike anything about the coach, I'm not sure what to say.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby farnham16 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:07 pm

Do people think that "doesn't trust young players" means he hates them? There has never been a lot of talk about him hating young players. But a lot about him not trusting them.

And he certainly doesn't trust them. You cannot make a valid argument that he does. Again, Bylsma is at his most comfortable when he's coaching players like Adams, Engelland, Eaton, Kennedy, Cooke, and Vitale than he is coaching very talented young players like Bennett and Despres. Those two guys were completely misused this past season.

One of Bylsma's biggest flaws so far is his inability to get things out of young players. Even when he puts them into the lineup he doesn't give them big roles or minutes. Maybe he can improve in this area. Maybe we'll find out if he gives Bennett, Despres, Doumoulin, etc a legit chance this coming year. But I'll believe it when I see it. I still think there is a great chance you see Engelland in the lineup opening night.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:12 pm

...
Last edited by shmenguin on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:13 pm

My stance on the coach as well... at this point, I'll believe it when I see it in terms of creating a playoff winning system and dealing with the young guys (this year seems to be Despres and Bennett unless one of the others makes it up). I hope he does. He needs to so we have a team in the 14-15 season.

I'd be happy for DB to prove me wrong and beat a high caliber team in the playoffs. Until then, my expectations are going to be that we have a super exciting and successful regular season and a disappointing playoffs after being talked up as a Stanley Cup favorite going in. And people will wonder why Crosby and Malkin get stifled in whatever series we lose in.

But again, the original topic: the direction seems to be going the same way. When they talk about change and giving Bennett and Despres bigger roles after the season, I hope we see it because as of right now, there is minimal change. As someone cited above, we are easily a playoff team. I don't think anyone would doubt that.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:13 pm

Aside from depres, I'm not sure which young players have been held back under the HCDB regime. Bennet got called up to the 2nd line quicker than anyone expected this year. Tangradi started the season in that spot. The rest of our decent young guys like letestu and lovejoy were traded away after being supported by bylsma. He hasn't had anything to work with, really. Even with depres, he's a defenseman. There's probably an organizational plan to bring him along slowly.

I think bylsma is pretty lousy, but not for that reason. His lineup choices against Boston were a joke, and he went on record saying the team didn't need to change anything after falling 3-0 in a series.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby farnham16 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:26 pm

shmenguin wrote:Aside from depres, I'm not sure which young players have been held back under the HCDB regime. Bennet got called up to the 2nd line quicker than anyone expected this year. Tangradi started the season in that spot. The rest of our decent young guys like letestu and lovejoy were traded away after being supported by bylsma. He hasn't had anything to work with, really. Even with depres, he's a defenseman. There's probably an organizational plan to bring him along slowly.

I think bylsma is pretty lousy, but not for that reason. His lineup choices against Boston were a joke, and he went on record saying the team didn't need to change anything after falling 3-0 in a series.


Jeffrey is a guy that has talent and should be able be in the lineup over guys like Adams, Vitale, and Glass, yet Bylsma has never been able to get anything out of him. Or trust him for more than a couple games.

Despres is such a huge one for me because I just don't buy that he's not ready. At no point this season did Despres play worse than Engelland. Yet, Engo was nearly always in there instead of him. And Letang played his best two way hockey this past season when paired with Despres. It caused him to be more cautious out there. I would argue that the best D partner for Letang is not Scuds, its Despres. If he's paired with Scuds, you think Letang is gonna think twice about jumping way into the play or about making a really risky pass? No way. He'll play totally out of control because he'll know he's got steady Scuderi back there. If he's with Despres, he will be the veteran on that pairing and know he needs to be more responsible because he's playing with a younger guy. You saw that last season.

I love Scuderi, but I just don't think this team needed him. Not for 4 years anyway. You start Despres in the top 4 at the beginning of the year, let him play and go through the growing pains, by the playoffs he'll be very good and his talent will be really coming out.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby pcm on Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:35 am

Its not just Blsyma. It's an organizational thing. Every year Shero backfills the roster with vets. If Blysma gave an open competition for these spots, then I'd be fine with this strategy as I believe competition gets the most out of people. But its not.

Despres and Bortuzzo ride the bench for Engelland and Eaton. What value does that bring? Even if the vets play 10-20% better in their marginal roles, the opportunity cost for Despres and Bortuzzo is less games played, slower development, and zero potential to get a surprise performance, like Torey Krug, showing up for you in a big way. What if Bennett had played the whole playoffs? I think he would have made a difference. He was noticeable in a good way in every game he played, so why sit him? He's one of your best players in game 3, why bench him in OT? Blysma doesn't trust young players. And the team loses out.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby NeddieVedder on Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:46 am

Boogeyman wrote:So embarrassing that we acquire hall of fame player, who can still play at a fairly high level, completely misuse him, fan base thinks he's old and slow when really the coach, who got extended mind you, is incompetent. Said player is then passed over to sign a career grinder who threw together a couple decent seasons, but will probably fail now that he has "expectations" to go along with his 2 million dollar pay raise.


Saw the playoffs. Saw neither get PP time. Saw them both skate. Saw them both forecheck. Hardly an injustice.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby The U on Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:48 am

Is team speed still an issue? I think a lot of the slower guys left....addition by subtraction perhaps?

Still concerned with the overall lack of size in the bottom 6. Not very tough to play against. No real agitators or pests. Maybe 1 middle-weight fighter. I just don't see a clear direction for lines 3 or 4.

If you're not going for size what are you trying to build? Speed, skill, defensive shut down lines, puck possession/cycling, big hitters? Curious to see what else Shero has planned; the bottom 6 has me stumped.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Froggy on Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:54 am

can we please assign some blame on iginla for not really being very good?
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby pcm on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:03 am

Froggy wrote:can we please assign some blame on iginla for not really being very good?


Not until we've see him in Boston.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:07 am

pcm wrote:
Froggy wrote:can we please assign some blame on iginla for not really being very good?


Not until we've see him in Boston.


I agree with that, and I wonder on which wing Boston will play him? Wanna bet they do it right?
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:41 am

Side note: is it me or is the Pens' philosophy mirroring the Steelers' recent philosophy? Sign aging guy because they want to play here. Bring guys back who played well, got paid for their prime elsewhere, and now want to come back for their twilight years. Pay no attention to age. Kind of funny if you think about it a bit.

For the last few posts... I don't understand from either side why people can't agree that it's not JUST the player or not JUST the coach. If a player plays bad or makes mistakes, that's on them. When there are patterns with players and systematic issues, it goes up to the coach. Iginla struggling (I personally never had an issue with how he played) can be a result of both him AND the coach. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Iginla is old enough and good enough that he should look competent on either wing. If he didn't that's on him. However, I'm not sure how your brain has to function to get a hall of fame winger in for the playoffs and think you should play him on his off wing and never even give him a go on his normal side. That's on the coach. Both sides. (For the record, I never really thought Iginla was a huge issue other than there were spots where he looked off, but it wasn't like "OMG, this guy sucks!")

Same goes for the powerplay... it's on the players each time they went out there vs BOS and looked ridiculous with an extra man on the ice. It's on the coach when he sits there and watches it happen 14 times in a row then trots out the same players and strategy on PP #15.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Pens4Life on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:17 am

I didnt like the direction went at all with Bylsma re-signing as first thing! then all these steps,i dont know,beside Scuderi and Dupuis re-signing! We have as for now,really poor bottom lines and no cap space.. Shero has to do some magic ,trade Nisky,Glass - maybe even Jokinen and get some muscles ..
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:51 am

pcm wrote:Its not just Blsyma.


I love these Blsyma, Blysma misspells.
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