The Pens direction so far

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:07 am

shmenguin wrote:
KG wrote:Definitely a soft bottom 6 as of now. I still think Shero is going to make a move or two to toughen those lines up though...


Not really a "soft" bottom 6. Adams, vitale, glass, and the porn guy aren't soft. They're just supremely untalented.


Actually it would be better stated that the Pens bottom 6 is not difficult to play against. That is one huge difference between the 08 final reaching team and the 09 cup winning teams/versus the teams since those two years. The Pens were a team very difficult to play against top to bottom. Especially the bottom 6. They dictated play and actually it was 12 forwards of relentless pressure.

This has sadly been missing at an increasing rate every year since the cup. Now what we have are two world class players, one winger with world class speed. The rest have become really easy to play against...kunitz being the wild card here with the NHL watching those hits like a hawk.

Regardless you can call them soft, you can call them tough but no talent...but what you CANT call them is difficult to play against.
Scott
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,899
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:11 am
Location: The Quick Stop roof playing hockey

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Steve Dave on Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:31 am

Their direction seems to be surrounding their core without handing out overpriced contracts.
Steve Dave
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 793
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:09 pm

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:45 am

I have to admit that I'm more than a bit concerned about the Pens from 2015 - forward.

HCDB's system isn't set up for a roster with such aging veterans.

HCDB is going to have to change, or GMRS is going to have to replace the HC.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Steve on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:00 am

I have concerns like everyone else, for me, mostly in net.

I can't complain about the direction of the team however, the Pens have a very legit chance of winning another cup sometime in the next few years, as fans, I'm not sure it gets any better than that.
Steve
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,598
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:56 am
Location: Maryland

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:07 am

Steve wrote:I have concerns like everyone else, for me, mostly in net.

I can't complain about the direction of the team however, the Pens have a very legit chance of winning another cup sometime in the next few years, as fans, I'm not sure it gets any better than that.

One good move, or one individual developing at that position, solves the problems in net (heck, MAF getting his head together solves those problems), but when your system is built for speed, and your roster ages significantly, you're going to have bigger problems that can't be solved by getting stronger at a single position.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby pcm on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:11 am

Sarcastic wrote:
pcm wrote:Its not just Blsyma.


I love these Blsyma, Blysma misspells.


abysmal
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,725
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Steve on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:35 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Steve wrote:I have concerns like everyone else, for me, mostly in net.

I can't complain about the direction of the team however, the Pens have a very legit chance of winning another cup sometime in the next few years, as fans, I'm not sure it gets any better than that.

One good move, or one individual developing at that position, solves the problems in net (heck, MAF getting his head together solves those problems), but when your system is built for speed, and your roster ages significantly, you're going to have bigger problems that can't be solved by getting stronger at a single position.


I think getting MAF to be reliable, or finding someone who is, may be much more difficult than filling out the bottom of the Pens roster. Perhaps Vokoun is the answer for another season or two - or they may split the workload and go with the most reliable one once the playoffs start.

I'm not as concerned about the age of the roster or the perceived lack of toughness - the core is plenty tough and still young, and Shero still has moves to make prior to the season, and/or during the season.
Steve
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,598
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:56 am
Location: Maryland

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Penspal on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:45 am

I share some of the same trepidation about the age and length of contract for these veteran players..... However

1. In GMRS I trust
2. All of these guys are going to be good NEXT year
3. Consistency is good
4. GMRS KNOWS and is betting that injuries will occur. Young guys will get their time...
Penspal
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,107
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:12 am
Location: Filet-o-Fish Submarine

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby topshelf on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:41 am

Penspal wrote:I share some of the same trepidation about the age and length of contract for these veteran players..... However

1. In GMRS I trust
2. All of these guys are going to be good NEXT year
3. Consistency is good
4. GMRS KNOWS and is betting that injuries will occur. Young guys will get their time...


Plus, we couldn't get half the players on the open market that we're getting out of these guys for the price we're paying. I'm betting that Kunitz and Dupuis outscore Clowe and Clarkson, and for much better cap hits. If we let the "old" guys walk, we're replacing them with less talented guys for the same money.
topshelf
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,387
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby penny lane on Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:19 pm

bhaw wrote:On topic... I don't mind any of the contracts by themselves. I just look at the team as a whole and it's almost exactly like last year and the year before. Good for stability, but with the same coach and same players, what's going to change the outcome of their season? Since the Cup, the Pens have been the Washington Capitals of the last half dozen years (except last year's Caps). In the regular season, the Pens go on huge stretches of wins and phenomenal play. Then as soon as they hit a legit opponent in the playoffs, they become the world's easiest Rubrics Cube to solve.

If the intention was to keep Disco around, I would have hoped they made some kind of personnel change. If Shero and company don't believe that the coach is the issue (by way of extending him) then it has to be the players no executing his system that is causing the laughable playoff performances is MTL, PHI, and BOS (since we have to ignore TB). Obviously you're not trading Sid or Malkin, so I would have figured some kind of change was due elsewhere. As of now, that's not the case, so I'm confused: either they think that the complete team breakdowns (2 historical in nature) are purely coincidence/bad luck or they are content with the last 4 seasons.


by pens_CT on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:43 pm

At the end of the day it comes down to the coach being able to adapt his system to playoff hockey, and the goalie making 5 mil/year playing well in the playoffs. If those things don't happen it doesn't matter whether you have old or young, gritty or soft players to fill up the remainder of the roster. The end result is the same


The biggest change I wanted from GM Ray Shero was behind the bench. It is not happening over the summer, so adding players that are established will keep Coach Blysma comfortable.
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 27,747
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: juju land

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Henry Hank on Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:55 pm

The getting younger thing makes sense as a theory but I think it's another one of those things that's gaining a life of its own and taking off too far. I'm sure every team would ideally want to add youth as the years go by but it's not as simple as just snapping your fingers. Getting young just for the sake of getting younger isn't necessarily a good idea just like making changes just because isn't necessarily a good thing. Young isn't always better and old isn't always bad. I just keep hearing this well why aren't the Pens trying to get younger thing but I'm not seeing any ideas of how to go about that.

They don't have any good young forward talent ready to step in besides Bennett. That's certainly something you can blame them for. But given that how are they supposed to get younger? Any halfway good, youngish player on the UFA market just signed for 5-7 years and ~$5 million per. They could have gotten younger in free agency but they wouldn't have gotten better and they would have even worse contracts on the books than the ones they have that are making people uneasy.

I think the Pens are too old thing is overblown. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Bennett, Sutter, Vitale, Letang, Despres, and Fleury are all going to be regulars and are all south of 30. That's like half the team on any given night and most of those guys play substantial roles. As of now their oldest players are going to be Adams and Vokoun, both 36, both relatively minor roles. Scuderi and Dupuis at 34 are the most prominent older guys but they're both really solid players. I think they have a pretty good mix of younger guys and veterans. Ideally they'd be adding more than just Bennett and Despres in their early 20's but that's a limitation of their organization right now, and it's not something easily addressed nor is it something that desperately needs to be addressed right at this moment.
Henry Hank
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,480
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:58 pm

Ya'll keep focusing on 2013-2014, which is understandable. But these veteran signings are for 3-4 years, and when you look out to the 2016-2017 season, it's a real reason for concern.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:01 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Ya'll keep focusing on 2013-2014, which is understandable. But these veteran signings are for 3-4 years, and when you look out to the 2016-2017 season, it's a real reason for concern.


Especially since even if cap goes up a chunk per year we still will have issues especially signing any UFA's.

See those prices?

At $5 million per eat cap increase it will still be 18-19 before we can fill out our roster at an avg of $3 million per player.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,966
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:13 pm

Henry Hank wrote:They could have gotten younger in free agency but they wouldn't have gotten better and they would have even worse contracts on the books than the ones they have that are making people uneasy.

I think the Pens are too old thing is overblown. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Bennett, Sutter, Vitale, Letang, Despres, and Fleury are all going to be regulars and are all south of 30. That's like half the team on any given night and most of those guys play substantial roles. As of now their oldest players are going to be Adams and Vokoun, both 36, both relatively minor roles. Scuderi and Dupuis at 34 are the most prominent older guys but they're both really solid players. I think they have a pretty good mix of younger guys and veterans. Ideally they'd be adding more than just Bennett and Despres in their early 20's but that's a limitation of their organization right now, and it's not something easily addressed nor is it something that desperately needs to be addressed right at this moment.

This what I don't agree with. By stating such you are not giving Crosby much credit. I believe at this point he could have less expensive wingers and get the same production. Particularly kunitz. Scuderi had to be more of a welcome home type than this a great deal for us. Scuderi I can live with. Older and more wise defensemen can be valuable but too many older wingers is a problem. Especially in a pin your ears back and go system of bylsma. This is a young forwards system and not one for older legs.
Scott
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,899
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:11 am
Location: The Quick Stop roof playing hockey

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Beveridge on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:18 pm

Maybe keeping older guys around is Shero's way of telling Bylsma migrate, mutate, adapt, or be fired. These players are here and harder to move. Either Dan tailors the game plan to older legs or someone else is going to get the chance.
Beveridge
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,805
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:38 pm

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:47 pm

Beveridge wrote:Maybe keeping older guys around is Shero's way of telling Bylsma migrate, mutate, adapt, or be fired. These players are here and harder to move. Either Dan tailors the game plan to older legs or someone else is going to get the chance.

Maybe. I do seriously believe the Bylsma extension was more to get Letang, Malkin and Dupuis signed than anything else. They like the guy. A warm and fuzzy feeling Malkin, Letang and Dupuis are easier to sign than bringing in a coach of the unknown.

It will not surprise me in the least if Bylsma is dismissed next spring. There is no way he survives another embarrassing robotic coaching type playoff performance.
Scott
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,899
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:11 am
Location: The Quick Stop roof playing hockey

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:52 pm

Scott wrote:There is no way he survives another embarrassing robotic coaching type playoff performance.

I said that last year... And, well, here we are...
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Beveridge on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:52 pm

I think too it depends on what coaches are available. If Shero was entertaining the idea of firing Bylsma, his options outside of the organization wasn't that great. AV, Torts, Ruff, Boucher (only interesting option to me). Meh. Tippet wasn't leaving Phoenix.

It would have been change for the sake of change and not because a suitable replacement was out there. MT was fired because the Pens were faltering and they needed a mix up. They would do the same to DB in the regular season if it was going the same way.
Beveridge
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,805
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:38 pm

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby farnham16 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:24 pm

The only way Bylsma is gone is if the Pens miss the playoffs. This organization loves him.
farnham16
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,267
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Trying to get to my game

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:38 pm

Team USA loves him too.

Grass is always greener on the other side.

Spoiler:
See Iggy trade
taz71
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:12 pm

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:34 pm

Henry Hank wrote:The getting younger thing makes sense as a theory but I think it's another one of those things that's gaining a life of its own and taking off too far. I'm sure every team would ideally want to add youth as the years go by but it's not as simple as just snapping your fingers. Getting young just for the sake of getting younger isn't necessarily a good idea just like making changes just because isn't necessarily a good thing. Young isn't always better and old isn't always bad. I just keep hearing this well why aren't the Pens trying to get younger thing but I'm not seeing any ideas of how to go about that.

They don't have any good young forward talent ready to step in besides Bennett. That's certainly something you can blame them for. But given that how are they supposed to get younger? Any halfway good, youngish player on the UFA market just signed for 5-7 years and ~$5 million per. They could have gotten younger in free agency but they wouldn't have gotten better and they would have even worse contracts on the books than the ones they have that are making people uneasy.

I think the Pens are too old thing is overblown. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Bennett, Sutter, Vitale, Letang, Despres, and Fleury are all going to be regulars and are all south of 30. That's like half the team on any given night and most of those guys play substantial roles. As of now their oldest players are going to be Adams and Vokoun, both 36, both relatively minor roles. Scuderi and Dupuis at 34 are the most prominent older guys but they're both really solid players. I think they have a pretty good mix of younger guys and veterans. Ideally they'd be adding more than just Bennett and Despres in their early 20's but that's a limitation of their organization right now, and it's not something easily addressed nor is it something that desperately needs to be addressed right at this moment.


Well I can't say I disagree with a lot of your post but if a team is the oldest or almost oldest in the playoffs or league, regardless of their cores age it has to be mentioned and can't be overblown.

The issue is that it comes with depth. You pay more for UFAs and veterans - look at the past two days. You combine that with having no young legs coming up on entry level deals, so we have to sign or trade to fill out a roster. its everything combined that is troublesome not each issue in a vacuum.

I know I have argued this in other threads but we whether its style or roster we simply do not come in waves at other teams. The difference between us and other teams play in that regard has been substantial.Some of that has to do with having an aging roster.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,966
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Pavel Bure on Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:49 pm

Fleury on this team + Bylsma = playoff failure for sure. I'm not even excited for next year.
Pavel Bure
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,428
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:15 pm
Location: http://freebitco.in/?r=289635 get bitcoins

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:02 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:Fleury on this team + Bylsma = playoff failure for sure. I'm not even excited for next year.


with Scuderi-Letang; Martin-Orpik in front of him Fleury has no excuses. If this year is a failure Fleury or Bylsma will get the blame.
taz71
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:12 pm

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:06 pm

taz71 wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Fleury on this team + Bylsma = playoff failure for sure. I'm not even excited for next year.


with Scuderi-Letang; Martin-Orpik in front of him Fleury has no excuses. If this year is a failure Fleury or Bylsma will get the blame.


HA, I thought that the last couple years. Hasn't worked out that way.
offsides
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,908
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Man Cave in Washington, PA

Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:08 pm

what do you do?

interesting how the coaching staff and Fleury's contracts both expire in 2 years
taz71
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:12 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: America, Beveridge, Cagsjr724, Cedar Penn, DelPen, Eismann, Hugo Stiglitz, Humperdink, luv66, MalkinIsMyHomeboy, marek, Matthew Monstar, murphydump55, NashvilleCat, npv708, offsides, RentedMule66, RJW76, Rocco, sniper, SolidSnake, topshelf66 and 70 guests

e-mail