Fleury to see a sports psychologist

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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:00 pm

GSdrums87 wrote:When did Fleury fall coming out of the runway again Montreal? That's probably the thing that did it.


I think that was Detroit in '08
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby GSdrums87 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:01 pm

You would be correct. Well, shoot that theory down.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:07 pm

topshelf wrote:
shmenguin wrote:it's safe to say he was horrendous against montreal in '10. he had his moments, but crapped the bed when it mattered.


It's safe to say that, aside from Game 1, the entire team was bad during that series. They all crapped the bed when it mattered.


so what? i've given crosby plenty of flack for that series as well. but his teammates being junk doesn't give him a pass for letting in awful goals on the first shots of games. and if fleury needs the guys in front of him to inspire him to play well, then he's a pretty worthless NHL goalie. he should exist in more of a vacuum than he does. obviously he can get hung out to dry and let in a bunch of goals if his teammates screw up, but that doesn't mean he's supposed to let in soft goals.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:15 pm

I never understand that "everyone sucked" argument. Cool, but so did Fleury, and we're talking about Fleury.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:56 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I never understand that "everyone sucked" argument. Cool, but so did Fleury, and we're talking about Fleury.


shmenguin wrote:
topshelf wrote:
shmenguin wrote:it's safe to say he was horrendous against montreal in '10. he had his moments, but crapped the bed when it mattered.


It's safe to say that, aside from Game 1, the entire team was bad during that series. They all crapped the bed when it mattered.


so what? i've given crosby plenty of flack for that series as well. but his teammates being junk doesn't give him a pass for letting in awful goals on the first shots of games. and if fleury needs the guys in front of him to inspire him to play well, then he's a pretty worthless NHL goalie. he should exist in more of a vacuum than he does. obviously he can get hung out to dry and let in a bunch of goals if his teammates screw up, but that doesn't mean he's supposed to let in soft goals.


My point is when the entire team begins to collapse, it is only logical to consider that Fleury will collapse with it. If the Penguins were playing lights out in those series and they were let down by Fleury, I would say his play as "horrendous".

I'm not advocating that he doesn't need so see a sports psychiatrist, or that he hasn't let in some horrible goals, I'm stating that his horrendous play is a direct result of the play of the total unit. Fleury doesn't need people to "inspire" him, as you put it, he needs people to play their positions as they should. Go back and look at the highlights from the MTL series, particularly Game 7. The defense looks like a rec league team, turning the puck over again and again, failing to clear the zone, etc. The Canadiens were passing the puck around and getting quality chances at will. You can't blame Fleury for letting some of those go in, and you also can't blame him for letting that get into his head. Fleury's "worst" series to date have been MTL, Philly, and NYI, and in all three the Pens as a whole played like garbage.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:02 pm

topshelf wrote:My point is when the entire team begins to collapse, it is only logical to consider that Fleury will collapse with it.


it's a logical hypothesis, but it doesn't work that way in practice. good goalies bail bad teams out regularly. and bad goalies hamstring good teams. their play isn't as intertwined with the team as a whole as other position players.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:16 pm

shmenguin wrote:
topshelf wrote:My point is when the entire team begins to collapse, it is only logical to consider that Fleury will collapse with it.


it's a logical hypothesis, but it doesn't work that way in practice. good goalies bail bad teams out regularly. and bad goalies hamstring good teams. their play isn't as intertwined with the team as a whole as other position players.


We'll agree to disagree here, but I think it works that way in practice more than you'd think. Look back before some of those goals at the absolute chaos that ensued in the defensive end, and how Fleury is left high and dry.

Also, I think we can both agree that Fleury's play has never "hamstringed" the Pens. In the MTL and Philly series, the team as a whole looked like garbage with or without Fleury. In the NYI series, the team played poorly until the change was made. Please don't think I'm making excuses for MAF, but I believe Fleury's demise is a product of the team's demise, and in there comes the lack of confidence and then the weak goals (which hopefully the sports psychiatrist and new goalie coach can curb).

The reality is, since '09 (and we'll leave the TB series out of this), something changes in the Pens as a whole when the enter the playoffs. Maybe it is overconfidence, or lack of ability to keep their cool, or they abandon their system, or whatever... something changes. Maybe it has something to do with why Fleury has been consistently good in the regular season and then has gotten shaky when the playoffs begin, or why our stars get a bit snake bitten, etc. I hope everyone from Shero down to Adams figures it out this year.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Froggy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:21 pm

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Fleury has "hamstringed" the pens in the playoffs. Being hung out to dry or not, he was historically bad against Philly last year, and lost his job this year. And this is coming from someone who flat out LOVES Fleury.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:24 pm

I don't know what series you were watching if you thought the team was significantly different against the Islanders with Vokoun vs with Fleury.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:25 pm

Froggy wrote:I don't think it's a stretch to say that Fleury has "hamstringed" the pens in the playoffs. Being hung out to dry or not, he was historically bad against Philly last year, and lost his job this year. And this is coming from someone who flat out LOVES Fleury.


To say that Fleury "hamstringed" the Pens is to say that he is the reason they were unsuccessful. All anyone needs to do to render this statement false is watch the highlights from those series and see that the team "hamstringed" itself, plain and simple.

Did Fleury play a role in that? Absolutely, but to put the blame solely on him (which is what the term "hamstringed" means) is unfair.

Idoit40fans wrote:I don't know what series you were watching if you thought the team was significantly different against the Islanders with Vokoun vs with Fleury.


I'm pretty sure no one said "significantly different"...
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Froggy on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:26 pm

Fleury was the biggest reason we lost to Philly, and was the biggest reason we had trouble vs the Isles
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:28 pm

I guess thats true

topshelf wrote:In the NYI series, the team played poorly until the change was made.


If you weren't implying that they played better afterwards, i'm not sure what the point of the sentence was given the context of your post.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:28 pm

Froggy wrote:Fleury was the biggest reason we lost to Philly, and was the biggest reason we had trouble vs the Isles


Not the turnovers, the senseless penalties, the careless running around, the errand passes, the lack of finish, or the total loss of composure?
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby KG on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:29 pm

Never a good sign for a goalie to be weak mentally....

at least he is going for counseling (if that's what you call it)...

I'm not the most optimistic that he will regain his form. In the playoffs...
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:34 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I guess thats true

topshelf wrote:In the NYI series, the team played poorly until the change was made.


If you weren't implying that they played better afterwards, i'm not sure what the point of the sentence was given the context of your post.


I'm stating that Vokoun's entrance helped turn the series around and the team played better as a whole in front of him.

In Fleury's last game (Game 4), the Pens turned the puck over 11 times. They turned the puck over 15 times in the remaining two games counting overtime. I'd say they tightened up.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:41 pm

I'm saying that the team didn't play better in front of Vokoun, the results changed because he allowed fewer goals. I believe that the vast majority of people that watched the games would agree that they didn't tighten up.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Crankshaft on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:56 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I'm saying that the team didn't play better in front of Vokoun, the results changed because he allowed fewer goals. I believe that the vast majority of people that watched the games would agree that they didn't tighten up.


Vokoun played much better than Fleury, yes, but even the players said that the change was a wake-up call for them.

"[Vokoun] has played great for us every chance that he has gotten," Pittsburgh defenseman Mark Eaton said. "In the same sense, it's a wake-up call for us. By no means can you fault [Fleury]. It's us in front of him. It energizes us to play better."
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby wondermoose on Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:04 pm

I blame this guy for giving Fleury the yips:

Image
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby topshelf on Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:48 pm

Crankshaft wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I'm saying that the team didn't play better in front of Vokoun, the results changed because he allowed fewer goals. I believe that the vast majority of people that watched the games would agree that they didn't tighten up.


Vokoun played much better than Fleury, yes, but even the players said that the change was a wake-up call for them.

"[Vokoun] has played great for us every chance that he has gotten," Pittsburgh defenseman Mark Eaton said. "In the same sense, it's a wake-up call for us. By no means can you fault [Fleury]. It's us in front of him. It energizes us to play better."


Both the players said it and the stats speak for themselves. They tightened up and played a better game. Not great, but better.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby tfrizz on Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:51 pm

topshelf wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I'm saying that the team didn't play better in front of Vokoun, the results changed because he allowed fewer goals. I believe that the vast majority of people that watched the games would agree that they didn't tighten up.


Vokoun played much better than Fleury, yes, but even the players said that the change was a wake-up call for them.

"[Vokoun] has played great for us every chance that he has gotten," Pittsburgh defenseman Mark Eaton said. "In the same sense, it's a wake-up call for us. By no means can you fault [Fleury]. It's us in front of him. It energizes us to play better."


Both the players said it and the stats speak for themselves. They tightened up and played a better game. Not great, but better.


Kunitz said something similar during an interview on CBC. He said that the team felt like they let Fleury down and weren't about to do the same to Vokoun.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Steve on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:34 pm

Game 6 against Philly - they showed a close up of MAF - he looked scared and nervous to me. The announcers also mentioned he whiffed on everything during the warmups.

Perhaps he really wasn't scared - but if he was, I can't explain how or why. This was a first round elimination game and he was coming off of a very strong performance in game 5 - he pretty much stole that game. He also played lights out in 3 Stanley Cup elimination games and didn't look scared or nervous at all during those games - even after getting shelled in game 5 against the Wings.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:44 pm

Does it really matter?

He's going to see this SP and then he's going to get between the pipes.

Either he'll produce, or he won't. If he does, problem solved, if he doesn't then HCDB and GMRS have some decisions to make.

All of this teeth gnashing isn't going to make a spit in the oceans bit of difference.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby shafnutz05 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:57 pm

Maybe he can try the Doc Ellis approach.
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby Godric on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:13 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Maybe he can try the Doc Ellis approach.


Mescaline or Ibogaine instead of acid
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Re: Fleury to see a sports psychologist

Postby letsgoalpens on Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:58 am

pcm wrote:
letsgoalpens wrote:It seems like he is thinking too much instead of reacting. When he lets in a goal he seems to not be able to rely on the skills he has to stop the next one. That Cizikas goal at the end of game four was a perfect example. He was stuck between five different moves to stop the puck and just fell into the net instead. He was thinking instead of reacting. He simply does not trust his own ability when the pressure mounts after letting in a bad goal.

Something was different after game 5 in the Detroit series that he is not able to do now. He was PHENOMENAL after game 5 in Detroit but has not been able to rebound like that since. It could be his preparation as well. He might be lulling himself into how great he is after a good regular season and then tries to find his legs after being punched in the face in the playoffs. Whatever it is, it seems all mental. No question he has the physical tools as he has shown before.


This is all true, but against Detorit, Fleury was playing with a team in front of him that had a lot of confidence and mojo. It's a lot easier to rebound when you trust your team and your team trusts you.

After the past 4 years, there's been a downward spiral in that relationship. I don't just blame Fleury. The team's leadership has begun to resemble a bunch of brats, who instead of showing the resilience that won them the cup, act like spoiled children after something doesn't go their way. Fleury's getting the blame for this, but I'd have a few other players seeing sports psychologists as well. Especially anyone who's got an 8+ year contract with this team...


Totally agree, there are plenty of players who could benefit from some therapy. Neal, Malkin, and Letang all come to mind. I agree Fleury is not all to blame but at the end of the day the goalie is probably going to get an unfair share of the blame for success or failure. I really think this could be a great thing for MAF. He is one of my favorite players in the league and I want to see him succeed. I would be happy to provide ongoing therapy for any penguins player, haha. They would just have to fly to my office in Atlanta. I know what it is like to be an elite athlete since I play sticktime on my days off on Friday, lol.
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