Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coach

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby pcm on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:14 am

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:EVERY TEAM WILL GET OLDER IN THE COMING YEARS.


This is false. Players get older. Teams however are getting younger each year. Since 03-04, the average age of forwards IN THE PLAYOFFS has dropped from 29.1 to 27.6. Team are realizing that young players are more successful in today's game.

Here's the thing. It's not just youth for youth's sake. It's about investment. An old player each year is generally going to decline in value, whereas a young player increases in value as he grows and matures.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,204
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:29 am

pcm wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:EVERY TEAM WILL GET OLDER IN THE COMING YEARS.


This is false. Players get older. Teams however are getting younger each year. Since 03-04, the average age of forwards IN THE PLAYOFFS has dropped from 29.1 to 27.6. Team are realizing that young players are more successful in today's game.

Here's the thing. It's not just youth for youth's sake. It's about investment. An old player each year is generally going to decline in value, whereas a young player increases in value as he grows and matures.


The core of this team is right around that 27 year old mark.
Crankshaft
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,101
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 12:35 pm

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby pcm on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:34 am

Crankshaft wrote:What is this Country Club thing? I see it constantly here and have no idea what you're talking about.


Meme from the mid-90's when the Penguins were content to have a decent team each year, but never went the extra mile to overcome their challenges and win in the playoffs. I don't see anything wrong with fans questioning whether this is the mentality here. I wouldn't say it's a certainty, but there's fair reason to question things with the results of the past 4 years.

I agree there's a great team here. That's what's so maddening about the years of failure. But I'm stoked for Letang's development. I want to see the other young D playing bigger roles. Letang-Despres was the team's best pairing when together last year. If Despres isn't even in the top 4 because of old guys ahead of him, that's a problem in the way the org sees things. But as I said above, the cap situation will require something to give, so I'll wait and see.

The personnel up front is a big question mark beyond the top 7. But I'm fine with this being left unaddressed for now as uncertainty is generally the situation where young players step up and take a bigger role. I don't want Shero to sign a couple 30 year olds to fill out the bottom 6.

I see problems in the way the team plays. Hopefully J. Martin will help address that. All in all, I'm excited about the team's potential for next year. But success will require changes. There's room for those changes, but there's also the possibility the team just goes out and relies on talent to carry them over the hump yet again. And yet again, fails in the face of some greater force. But that's why they play the games... I'll be watching and hoping.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,204
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Defence21 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:41 am

pcm wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:What is this Country Club thing? I see it constantly here and have no idea what you're talking about.


Meme from the mid-90's when the Penguins were content to have a decent team each year, but never went the extra mile to overcome their challenges and win in the playoffs. I don't see anything wrong with fans questioning whether this is the mentality here. I wouldn't say it's a certainty, but there's fair reason to question things with the results of the past 4 years.

I agree there's a great team here. That's what's so maddening about the years of failure. But I'm stoked for Letang's development. I want to see the other young D playing bigger roles. Letang-Despres was the team's best pairing when together last year. If Despres isn't even in the top 4 because of old guys ahead of him, that's a problem in the way the org sees things. But as I said above, the cap situation will require something to give, so I'll wait and see.

The personnel up front is a big question mark beyond the top 7. But I'm fine with this being left unaddressed for now as uncertainty is generally the situation where young players step up and take a bigger role. I don't want Shero to sign a couple 30 year olds to fill out the bottom 6.

I see problems in the way the team plays. Hopefully J. Martin will help address that. All in all, I'm excited about the team's potential for next year. But success will require changes. There's room for those changes, but there's also the possibility the team just goes out and relies on talent to carry them over the hump yet again. And yet again, fails in the face of some greater force. But that's why they play the games... I'll be watching and hoping.

Age is definitely a question mark -- but it's something to look at in perspective. The age of the team is increased in some areas by role players who don't see much icetime. As others mentioned, the "core" is still under the average age of the league buy a few years. They're all invested in for the long-term, which is a good thing.

What we need to be aware of is that, despite what many think, decisions aren't always based on age. If Despres earns a shot with Letang on the top pair, he'll get it. It's not always about how he looked for two games, but sometimes about how hard he works in practice and how he handles specific situations. Letang was brought along slowly and he turned out to be a Norris candidate. Detroit is notorious for bringing young players along slowly. They're the epitome of success in the NHL. Patience are a virtue.
Defence21
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,840
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Factorial on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:55 am

pcm wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:What is this Country Club thing? I see it constantly here and have no idea what you're talking about.


Meme from the mid-90's when the Penguins were content to have a decent team each year, but never went the extra mile to overcome their challenges and win in the playoffs. I don't see anything wrong with fans questioning whether this is the mentality here.


But 99% of those making the "country club atmosphere" comment are stating it as fact.
Factorial
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,278
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Gleefully Ignorant

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby NeddieVedder on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:49 pm

Nizzy wrote:I checked this J. Martin guy out this weekend. He has a losing record in the playoffs. This isn't like 3-4 seasons, this is like 3-4 decades.

This guy is a regular season coach and a loser in crunch time.

Should fit in just well with this coaching staff. Just like what pcm said... so much stuff Shero did this offseason really makes be disappointed.


What's exciting about the hire is that Martin will be doing this exact same kind of advanced scouting, where he just reads the opposing team's Wikipedia article.
NeddieVedder
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:35 am

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby columbia on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:50 pm

What the?
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 46,766
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:52 pm

columbia wrote:What the?


I think Neddie is implying Nizzy just looks up people on Wikipedia.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,091
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby pcm on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:59 pm

Defence21 wrote:
pcm wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:What is this Country Club thing? I see it constantly here and have no idea what you're talking about.


Meme from the mid-90's when the Penguins were content to have a decent team each year, but never went the extra mile to overcome their challenges and win in the playoffs. I don't see anything wrong with fans questioning whether this is the mentality here. I wouldn't say it's a certainty, but there's fair reason to question things with the results of the past 4 years.

I agree there's a great team here. That's what's so maddening about the years of failure. But I'm stoked for Letang's development. I want to see the other young D playing bigger roles. Letang-Despres was the team's best pairing when together last year. If Despres isn't even in the top 4 because of old guys ahead of him, that's a problem in the way the org sees things. But as I said above, the cap situation will require something to give, so I'll wait and see.

The personnel up front is a big question mark beyond the top 7. But I'm fine with this being left unaddressed for now as uncertainty is generally the situation where young players step up and take a bigger role. I don't want Shero to sign a couple 30 year olds to fill out the bottom 6.

I see problems in the way the team plays. Hopefully J. Martin will help address that. All in all, I'm excited about the team's potential for next year. But success will require changes. There's room for those changes, but there's also the possibility the team just goes out and relies on talent to carry them over the hump yet again. And yet again, fails in the face of some greater force. But that's why they play the games... I'll be watching and hoping.

Age is definitely a question mark -- but it's something to look at in perspective. The age of the team is increased in some areas by role players who don't see much icetime. As others mentioned, the "core" is still under the average age of the league buy a few years. They're all invested in for the long-term, which is a good thing.

What we need to be aware of is that, despite what many think, decisions aren't always based on age. If Despres earns a shot with Letang on the top pair, he'll get it. It's not always about how he looked for two games, but sometimes about how hard he works in practice and how he handles specific situations. Letang was brought along slowly and he turned out to be a Norris candidate. Detroit is notorious for bringing young players along slowly. They're the epitome of success in the NHL. Patience are a virtue.


Yes, the core is in its prime. This team is not hopelessly over the hill. In two years however, the core will officially be over the average age, and we'll still only be halfway through Dupuis, Kunitz, Scuderi's contracts. The time to start weaving the young players to balance and replenish the old guys is now. As I described, that could very much happen this season, but if it doesn't, this team will be facing problems sooner than later.

Despres-Letang played more than 2 games together. I don't have the link, but a blogger did an indepth analysis of the top D pairings last season, and 58-47 topped the list. He earned every chance and more. But unless Shero makes a bold move and trades Martin or Orpik (or J. Martin brings a philosophy change), Despres will be playing on the bottom pairing.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,204
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:14 pm

pcm wrote:Yes, the core is in its prime. This team is not hopelessly over the hill. In two years however, the core will officially be over the average age, and we'll still only be halfway through Dupuis, Kunitz, Scuderi's contracts.


Hopefully we can trade Crosby and Malkin by then. We don't want to stray too far above the league average team age.
Crankshaft
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,101
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 12:35 pm

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby pcm on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:27 pm

It's so easy beating up on statistical analysis. But that's cool. Just means it will be ever more of an advantage for those willing to use it as a tool.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,204
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby meow on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:30 pm

Ahh, the age old argument of experience vs. youth - where no one is ever right because there is no correct answer.
meow
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,326
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby SolidSnake on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:38 pm

NeddieVedder wrote:
Nizzy wrote:I checked this J. Martin guy out this weekend. He has a losing record in the playoffs. This isn't like 3-4 seasons, this is like 3-4 decades.

This guy is a regular season coach and a loser in crunch time.

Should fit in just well with this coaching staff. Just like what pcm said... so much stuff Shero did this offseason really makes be disappointed.


What's exciting about the hire is that Martin will be doing this exact same kind of advanced scouting, where he just reads the opposing team's Wikipedia article.

Post your lineup
SolidSnake
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,127
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:41 pm
Location: Winners don't use drugs.- William S. Sessions.

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Factorial on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:39 pm

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec wrote:Youth is the gift of nature, but age is a work of art.
Factorial
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,278
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Gleefully Ignorant

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:53 pm

pcm wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:EVERY TEAM WILL GET OLDER IN THE COMING YEARS.


This is false. Players get older. Teams however are getting younger each year. Since 03-04, the average age of forwards IN THE PLAYOFFS has dropped from 29.1 to 27.6. Team are realizing that young players are more successful in today's game.

Here's the thing. It's not just youth for youth's sake. It's about investment. An old player each year is generally going to decline in value, whereas a young player increases in value as he grows and matures.


I meant as far as life goes on and with each year humans get older...
Hugo Stiglitz
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,849
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:36 am

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:55 pm

meow wrote:Ahh, the age old argument of experience vs. youth - where no one is ever right because there is no correct answer.


There's no correct answer but the theory behind the original argument is flawed by saying this team is getting TOO old when over the next few years, our core players are entering their prime hockey years. It was just an absurd use of logic that we're in danger of getting too old.
Hugo Stiglitz
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,849
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:36 am

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:00 am

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
meow wrote:Ahh, the age old argument of experience vs. youth - where no one is ever right because there is no correct answer.


There's no correct answer but the theory behind the original argument is flawed by saying this team is getting TOO old when over the next few years, our core players are entering their prime hockey years. It was just an absurd use of logic that we're in danger of getting too old.


Are they entering their prime? Contract wise but don't most star players see their stats slow down even a little after age 25-26? Don't get me wrong Sid and Geno are woth every penny, will still be top players and so forth but in the NHL hitting 30 isn't like the MLB. I could be wrong but I swear I read that.

Either way age is a valid concern but on two fronts. One will the top tier support players for Sid/Geno be too old to be counted on to produce at this level AND when will our core of defense be really ready to contribute in bunches?

We talk about Letang being brought along slowly and Despres struggles in adapting, but even if we shorten it to 3 years we are still 5 years away minimum from having this stacked defense carrying 20 +hard minutes in most slots.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,094
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby JoseCuervo on Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:47 am

Wings almost won back-to-back cups with the oldest team in the league. Luckily the pens won game 7 simply because they were younger.
JoseCuervo
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,809
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:20 pm
Location: Dallas

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Rylan on Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:52 am

JoseCuervo wrote:Wings almost won back-to-back cups with the oldest team in the league. Luckily the pens won game 7 simply because they were younger.


You aren't simply trying to state that age is relatively irrelevant when determining a Stanley Cup champion and there is more to it than that?
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,000
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:02 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
meow wrote:Ahh, the age old argument of experience vs. youth - where no one is ever right because there is no correct answer.


There's no correct answer but the theory behind the original argument is flawed by saying this team is getting TOO old when over the next few years, our core players are entering their prime hockey years. It was just an absurd use of logic that we're in danger of getting too old.


Are they entering their prime? Contract wise but don't most star players see their stats slow down even a little after age 25-26? Don't get me wrong Sid and Geno are woth every penny, will still be top players and so forth but in the NHL hitting 30 isn't like the MLB. I could be wrong but I swear I read that.

Either way age is a valid concern but on two fronts. One will the top tier support players for Sid/Geno be too old to be counted on to produce at this level AND when will our core of defense be really ready to contribute in bunches?

We talk about Letang being brought along slowly and Despres struggles in adapting, but even if we shorten it to 3 years we are still 5 years away minimum from having this stacked defense carrying 20 +hard minutes in most slots.


I don't believe it's a valid concern.

You could analyze plenty of players to see what age they decline, but on the whole 25 to 30 are your prime years. Most player don't fully develop until 23/24 and get better until around 30. This is more true for guys like Sid, Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Kane, etc... these are players who thrive off of experience and age. They get smarter. Yeah, at 30 their legs probably start to slow down, but not always.

In five years is this something to be concerned about? Yeah, probably, but it's far from a concern now and not a concern you begin to prepare for right now. Let me be clear, you always try to be prepared in the respect of how well you draft, but you don't start worrying about the age of your personnel at this point.

In three years you probably start paying closer attention to the players you're signing, but not right now.
Hugo Stiglitz
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,849
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:36 am

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:12 pm

Rylan wrote:
JoseCuervo wrote:Wings almost won back-to-back cups with the oldest team in the league. Luckily the pens won game 7 simply because they were younger.


You aren't simply trying to state that age is relatively irrelevant when determining a Stanley Cup champion and there is more to it than that?


I don't think anyone is saying anything other than its concern. The Fab Five was a concern about all freshman playing and they went far.

It can happen, winning a cup with an older roster, and there are examples that it happene but it doesn't mean it's a void of being a concern.

More likely than not you don't want to be a team with a roster or too many players on the wrong side of 30 in sports.

Concern: yes

End all: no
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,094
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:18 pm

The reason teams win with young rosters is because they are getting away with a couple of high end players and other contributors on ELCs. They're saving money there and can spend it elsewhere and therefore have an advantage.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 52,682
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby DesertPenguin on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:56 pm

Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Bennett are 4 of the top 6 for the better part of the next decade. Dupuis and Kunitz can play their current roles for another year or two before giving way and becoming an excellent set of 3rd line wingers. The logjam of talent on D in the system has us set up splendidly there, assuming we can get these guys into the show before their waiver eligibility expires.

I'd like to see one or two young forwards added to the mix, likely through trading defensemen young or old, to be groomed to fill in for Dupuis and Kunitz in 2 years. Thats really the only hole to fill, and it is a manageable one (other than goaltender, which is a sepate discussion).

In Shero We Trust.
DesertPenguin
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:32 pm
Location: Z's Old House

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:07 pm

How are Neal and Bennett pencilled in for another 10 years?
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 52,682
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Crankshaft on Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:07 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:How are Neal and Bennett pencilled in for another 10 years?


In.Shero.We.Trust.
Crankshaft
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,101
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 12:35 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ffemtreed, raewhit, shoeshine boy and 22 guests


e-mail