Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coach

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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Penspal on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:18 pm

I like it. ACJM, it has a nice ring to it don't you think?
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby guiner on Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:46 pm

Penspal wrote:I like it. ACJM, it has a nice ring to it don't you think?


It will probably be used as much as ACTR and ACTG.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:42 am

mikey287 wrote:See, people get a little too caught up in systems sometimes. Not every coach has a system. Some have a style. Some are highly adaptable. Some have just guidelines (do's and do not's) and are great communicators and motivators. Et cetera.

Last year we played more 1-2-2 (colloquially, the dreaded "T" word) than I've seen us play ever...Jacques Martin can influx a little more puck possession into our game hopefully. I said a few years ago we could become a "strong side attack" type of team, but we're too slow now I think. But we have the skill.

Either way, it doesn't have to be one thing or the other. It's just nice to have this exchange of ideas that should be coming during the season from an experienced defensive coach.


I get what you are saying I just saw something differently in the playoffs and that has me worried about how we can interject parts of a style.

It seemed based on our personnel we had two: 3rd and 4th line play a trap but you are too slow and lack any skill to create any offense especially if you aren't very aggressive so just don't let them do anything. And lines one and two which was Go Get'em Tiger (just don't get near the goalie).

I see your point and wasn't thinking about him helping puck possession in offense. But curious how this can mesh, even if its slightly a style change on an offense without any real players to keep the puck in or go get the puck. I think we all agree after the Bruins series that we need changes and help in that department and I am no Bylsma fan but we don't seem to have those pieces.

Part of that is coaching and a lot of it is personnel. Part of my real concern as well is that even switching style/partial system we will then have to embark on some fairly major roster moves and set us back as cup contenders a few more years.

But then again the HCMT / HCDB hybrid worked well and a lot of that us a fans want to get back to....and a lot of that was personnel so actually I have no idea what I'm trying to say right now expect to type and think in circles. :scared: :scared: :scared:
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:37 am

Penspal wrote:I like it. ACJM, it has a nice ring to it don't you think?

After this years upcoming playoff failure it's gonna be HCJM. This team is weaker in all aspects when compared to last years team and its guaranteed to be old and slow in the coming years with the contracts given to Kunitz, Dupuis, and Scuderi. Vancouver East or Toronto South whichever you want to pick the Pens are quickly heading down that path.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby meow on Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:42 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
Penspal wrote:I like it. ACJM, it has a nice ring to it don't you think?

After this years upcoming playoff failure it's gonna be HCJM. This team is weaker in all aspects when compared to last years team and its guaranteed to be old and slow in the coming years with the contracts given to Kunitz, Dupuis, and Scuderi. Vancouver East or Toronto South whichever you want to pick the Pens are quickly heading down that path.

Hahaha. Is this a serious comment?
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:46 pm

I have very little excitement for a team that has gotten worse, made sure it will be older now and in the future, and that decided they were still okay in goal. They'll be very good in the regular season and and get trounced in the playoffs again.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:47 pm

I like having him as the defensive coach, but I feel like this is too many cooks in the kitchen. I wonder if this is similar to the Vokoun signing.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby penny lane on Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:24 pm

I think Coach Martin will be coaching from above. I don't see him in the crowded bench area.
Begs the question: how many coaches does it take to get the players' attention? :?
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:07 pm

penny lane wrote:I think Coach Martin will be coaching from above. I don't see him in the crowded bench area.
Begs the question: how many coaches does it take to get the players' attention? :?


I'd rather see Reirden up top and Martin running the D on the bench. He has much more experience and is obviously an upgrade over Reirden. It would be a waste to put Martin upstairs.

Why do you think Martin will be coaching from above?
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby SolidSnake on Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:36 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
penny lane wrote:I think Coach Martin will be coaching from above. I don't see him in the crowded bench area.
Begs the question: how many coaches does it take to get the players' attention? :?


I'd rather see Reirden up top and Martin running the D on the bench. He has much more experience and is obviously an upgrade over Reirden. It would be a waste to put Martin upstairs.

Why do you think Martin will be coaching from above?

Bylsma should be coaching from upstairs
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Willie Kool on Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:23 pm

SolidSnake wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
penny lane wrote:I think Coach Martin will be coaching from above. I don't see him in the crowded bench area.
Begs the question: how many coaches does it take to get the players' attention? :?


I'd rather see Reirden up top and Martin running the D on the bench. He has much more experience and is obviously an upgrade over Reirden. It would be a waste to put Martin upstairs.

Why do you think Martin will be coaching from above?

Bylsma should be coaching from upstairs

Perfect. He can eat nachos during games, but still be around to pat the boys on the back during practice and run the moustache boy contest.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Beveridge on Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:44 pm

Ah, the internet win-win. Predict awful and then be happy you were wrong or puff the chest that you were right.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:44 pm

What does that have to do woth the internet. Im pretty sure that fans have been dealing with coaches they didnt think highly of since fans have existed.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby meow on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:20 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:I have very little excitement for a team that has gotten worse, made sure it will be older now and in the future, and that decided they were still okay in goal. They'll be very good in the regular season and and get trounced in the playoffs again.

Then make like a tree, and get outta here.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Beveridge on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:28 pm

meow wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:I have very little excitement for a team that has gotten worse, made sure it will be older now and in the future, and that decided they were still okay in goal. They'll be very good in the regular season and and get trounced in the playoffs again.

Then make like a tree, and get outta here.


Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Pavel Bure on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:41 pm

meow wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:I have very little excitement for a team that has gotten worse, made sure it will be older now and in the future, and that decided they were still okay in goal. They'll be very good in the regular season and and get trounced in the playoffs again.

Then make like a tree, and get outta here.

I'm allowed to be a fan and not be excited with current direction of the team you know. I wasn't excited when they were selling off all their talent in the early 2000's but I was still a fan. Like I said the team has assured itself to be one of the older teams in the league in the coming years. I realize other teams threw around money like the cap was going up and not at it's lowest possible point but man locking up guys until their late 30's to fill the top 6 and the top 4 d-men historically hasn't been a model for success. Right now that's the direction the Pens are heading and it's not exciting.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby pens_CT on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:15 am

Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:I have very little excitement for a team that has gotten worse, made sure it will be older now and in the future, and that decided they were still okay in goal. They'll be very good in the regular season and and get trounced in the playoffs again.

Then make like a tree, and get outta here.

I'm allowed to be a fan and not be excited with current direction of the team you know. I wasn't excited when they were selling off all their talent in the early 2000's but I was still a fan. Like I said the team has assured itself to be one of the older teams in the league in the coming years. I realize other teams threw around money like the cap was going up and not at it's lowest possible point but man locking up guys until their late 30's to fill the top 6 and the top 4 d-men historically hasn't been a model for success. Right now that's the direction the Pens are heading and it's not exciting.

I'd be far more concerned about our goalie making 5 mil/yr who is under 30, and our head coach rather than Scuderi, Dupuis, and Kunitz.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Defence21 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:31 am

Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:I have very little excitement for a team that has gotten worse, made sure it will be older now and in the future, and that decided they were still okay in goal. They'll be very good in the regular season and and get trounced in the playoffs again.

Then make like a tree, and get outta here.

I'm allowed to be a fan and not be excited with current direction of the team you know. I wasn't excited when they were selling off all their talent in the early 2000's but I was still a fan. Like I said the team has assured itself to be one of the older teams in the league in the coming years. I realize other teams threw around money like the cap was going up and not at it's lowest possible point but man locking up guys until their late 30's to fill the top 6 and the top 4 d-men historically hasn't been a model for success. Right now that's the direction the Pens are heading and it's not exciting.

I'm not sure they were in a position to make many appealing moves, really. When it comes down to it, they had three options. One, underpay and give term to their aging players. While the team doesn't get any younger, at least proven commodities are retained. Two, overpay and give term to younger players. While they might get younger, there's no guarantee any of these players would work out, especially considering most have been pretty up and down throughout their careers. Three, move on without any suitable replacements. With zero internal options outside of Beau Bennett anywhere near ready, this doesn't seem very viable.

Ultimately, the Penguins didn't get older -- they just guaranteed they wouldn't necessarily get younger in the future. Really, though, the only one I'm concerned about is Kunitz, whose style of game takes a toll on the body, likely meaning he'll wear down and be less effective or he'll change his game and be less effective. Dupuis, on the other hand, depends on his skating and speed. As long as his wheels hold up, he'll be fine. I see him as the type of player who ages gracefully and remains successful into his late 30s. Scuderi will be fine. Adams is a cheap fourth line option who could eventually see his icetime cut in his two-year contract.

Ultimately, my point is that getting younger is a great idea and having a young team is a solid plan. But you've got to have the right players making the right money in order to make this happen. Simply getting younger for the sake of getting younger doesn't help -- especially in the salary cap era and when average players are getting $4, $5, and $6 million AND extended term.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby mikey287 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:53 am

One note about Kunitz, which is probably on the optimistic side, but it's worth noting - he didn't start in the league at 18 or 20, his first full season I think was at 25 or 26...so he doesn't have quite as many miles on him as a player that started out younger playing this type of style. Versus, say, a Milan Lucic who came in at 19 or Corey Perry (who has already started the adjustment to more calculation and less "make a mess") who came in at 20 or 21.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Penspal on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:59 am

mikey287 wrote:One note about Kunitz, which is probably on the optimistic side, but it's worth noting - he didn't start in the league at 18 or 20, his first full season I think was at 25 or 26...so he doesn't have quite as many miles on him as a player that started out younger playing this type of style. Versus, say, a Milan Lucic who came in at 19 or Corey Perry (who has already started the adjustment to more calculation and less "make a mess") who came in at 20 or 21.


Another couple of notes about Kunitz.

- He's a smart hockey player.
- He has vastly improved his ability to carry the puck up the middle with speed. I didn't see that at all in his first few years in Pittsburgh.
- He was invited to Team Canada for a reason, he's good.
- Last year have been CK's best, but it was not Crosby's best and Kunitz brings out the best in Sid, so I look forward to them playing together.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby pcm on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:44 am

There was no need to re-sign Kunitz this offseason. Total head-scratcher...and right after a career year. Why not just wait to see how he slows down? And give Adams 2 years?

Those 2 moves make it seem like the Pens are on their way to country club 2.0. With that trend established, the other moves start to look suspect as well, though I'd be fine with them in and of themselves.

There is plenty of reason for concern. Still nothing here is catastrophic, at least this upcoming year. So I'm willing to take these decisions "one season at a time."
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Nizzy on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:05 am

I checked this J. Martin guy out this weekend. He has a losing record in the playoffs. This isn't like 3-4 seasons, this is like 3-4 decades.

This guy is a regular season coach and a loser in crunch time.

Should fit in just well with this coaching staff. Just like what pcm said... so much stuff Shero did this offseason really makes be disappointed.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby pcm on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:08 am

Also, there's still moves to be made this offseason. It certainly looks like a defenseman has to go to get under the cap. And the obvious return would be a young forward.

I'm starting to think that Minnesota will be the trade partner. They've got Brodin-Suter and a bunch of nothing on defense. Plus, they've got an abundance of young forwards competing for spots. There's Coyle, Zucker (small speedy scoring winger), Bulmer (6-3 agitating wing with upside), and Phillips (playmaker) to go along with Granlund and Niederatter.

Adding one more young forward to the mix will help offset the age factor moving forward.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:36 am

pcm wrote:There was no need to re-sign Kunitz this offseason. Total head-scratcher...and right after a career year. Why not just wait to see how he slows down?


I thought the same, until after Free Agency started and I saw the contracts that were being handed out. Kunitz, even if his numbers decline by 25%, will probably still be worth the money he got.

pcm wrote:And give Adams 2 years?


Who cares if it's two years? It's under $900k and if they really needed to get it off the books, they could. He's a 4th liner/press box guy. There is a reason why they haven't replaced Craig Adams with a younger Craig Adams - they don't have any in the system. Young Craig Adams are getting $1.5-2 million on the open market.

pcm wrote:Those 2 moves make it seem like the Pens are on their way to country club 2.0. With that trend established, the other moves start to look suspect as well, though I'd be fine with them in and of themselves.


What is this Country Club thing? I see it constantly here and have no idea what you're talking about. Them retaining a 4th line depth forward for close to the league minimum and a solid top-6 winger does not constitute them maintaining the status quo. People make fun of the Flyers for constantly changing organizational directions but then fault the Penguins for sticking with their players. I admit, I was emotional after the way they went out and was critical of Byslma and initially the resigning of Kunitz, but now that things have played out in free agency and you saw them make adjustments like bring in Scuderi and bringing in Jacques Martin, it shows that they know the flaws and they're looking to correct them within the current system.

This is a very good Penguins team. You don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. If Fleury gets his head on right and gets better, more complete coaching and they have a renewed commitment to the defensive game, this team is going to be a force. Heck, even if Fleury falters, you still have Vokoun.

I think we're on the cusp of seeing the 4th Stanley Cup in team history.
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Re: Jacques Martin hired by the Penguins as an assistant coa

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:48 am

Pavel Bure wrote:
meow wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:I have very little excitement for a team that has gotten worse, made sure it will be older now and in the future, and that decided they were still okay in goal. They'll be very good in the regular season and and get trounced in the playoffs again.

Then make like a tree, and get outta here.

I'm allowed to be a fan and not be excited with current direction of the team you know. I wasn't excited when they were selling off all their talent in the early 2000's but I was still a fan. Like I said the team has assured itself to be one of the older teams in the league in the coming years. I realize other teams threw around money like the cap was going up and not at it's lowest possible point but man locking up guys until their late 30's to fill the top 6 and the top 4 d-men historically hasn't been a model for success. Right now that's the direction the Pens are heading and it's not exciting.


I'm not one to go off on anyone here, but are you crazy?

1) First off, a team that's gotten worse? The Pens made it to the ECF for the first time since they won the cup, so I'd say they've gotten better than the past few years.

2) This team will get older? EVERY TEAM WILL GET OLDER IN THE COMING YEARS. That's how life works. Do you want a team of of rookies or vets? Our best players are entering their prime years. By your logic, we should always have a team in their early 20's.

Aside from Kunitz and Dupuis, our best forwards are all pretty darn young. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Sutter and Bennett are in the 21 to 25 age range.

Our defense? Our defense is only getting younger. Orpik and Scuderi are 32 and 34 respectively and Martin is 32. Letang is 26. Now, we have nothing but young heavily coveted dmen who will be filing in over the next three to four seasons.

We should let Shero know we should have a team with players in their mid-20's because in the coming years they're getting older....
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