Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Pitts on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:03 pm

columbia wrote:Take over the room?
If that - Shero's intention - is accurate, then it's a pretty discouraging assessment of the team leadership....and I'm not talking about Morrow and Iginla.

But, each and everyone of us knew that is what the team needed at the time. Most of us blamed the recent playoff failures on the lack of a Billy Guerin or Gary Roberts...someone who could come in and keep our YOUNG vets in line and focused. Morrow and Iginla (gulp) both failed at that cause.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby columbia on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:12 pm

Yeah, but there's a big difference between grit/experience/seniority/leadership and "taking over the room."

If that was the aim, I can't tell if that's more of an indictment of Shero's decision making or Crosby and Malkin's "leadership."
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:15 pm

It could also be that you're taking "take over the room" too literally.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby meow on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:16 pm

You can never have too many leaders in this scenario.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby columbia on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:16 pm

You could ask Rossi for a clarification. Or even Jesse.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby pcm on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:04 pm

Brendan Morrow 40 years old? I would have stopped reading there, but it was at the end of your post. :face:

The guy is 2 months older than Kunitz, who we just gave a 4 year contract.

Morrow got pushed out of Dallas because the team is in rebuild mode. They were ready to hand over the keys of the franchise to the next generation. Can you imagine working in that environment? Of course your production is going to nose dive.

He came in here and was almost a ppg player until he got moved to checking line duties with Sutter. And then he became one of the best Corsi players on the team. But okay, let's say he's useless because he was brought in to "fix" the team's issues and they still got swept by Boston.

Bravo.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby no name on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:16 pm

Can someone come up with a realistic scenario that Morrow can fit on our team under the cap. Who do you get rid of to open cap room. Morrow at the least is going to cost 2.5, at the least. We are 1 million over the cap?

I would love to get Morrow on this team he can easily take Jokinens spot. Just getting under the cap is going to be a chore, then adding 2.5+ to our cap.... lets worry about something that is reasonable.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Crankshaft on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:27 pm

I wouldn't get rid of Jokinen so quickly. I know he's not the power/grit/leadership guy that everyone is desperate for right now. However, when is the last time we had both Geno and Sid healthy for a full season? Jokinen is center-insurance. He's able to be plugged into a top-2 line role and contribute on a short-term basis should Geno or Sid go down for a short period of time. He's going to fill an important role this year.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Sigwolf on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:07 pm

Pitts wrote:
columbia wrote:Take over the room?
If that - Shero's intention - is accurate, then it's a pretty discouraging assessment of the team leadership....and I'm not talking about Morrow and Iginla.

But, each and everyone of us knew that is what the team needed at the time. Most of us blamed the recent playoff failures on the lack of a Billy Guerin or Gary Roberts...someone who could come in and keep our YOUNG vets in line and focused. Morrow and Iginla (gulp) both failed at that cause.


They had Roberts, they had Guerin... how many more years are our YOUNG vets going to need someone to keep them in line and focused, and at what point are they going to take responsibility for themselves and their huge contracts?
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:20 pm

I'm surprised at the amount of people who think becoming a locker room leader is a simple easy process that every player knows how to do and can develop this skill overnight.

It's really not that easy, and it's why teams and cup contenders are always adding vets and keeping guys like the Mark Recchi's, Jaromir Jagr's, Michael Handzus's, and Dustin Penner's of the league around.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Desiato on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:32 pm

MRandall25 wrote:I'm surprised at the amount of people who think becoming a locker room leader is a simple easy process that every player knows how to do and can develop this skill overnight.


I'm surprised people assume a leader in one locker room will be a leader in another. Team cultures and deficiencies vary.

I believe this is an overblown issue. I do not believe the Pens have a leadership deficiency. At least not on the ice. Even if there is one, it's naive to believe another player is going to rein in the superstars on this team. That has to happen at a coaching level.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:37 pm

If thats the case then not bringing morrow back is a no brainer.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Pitts on Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:09 pm

Sigwolf wrote:
Pitts wrote:
columbia wrote:Take over the room?
If that - Shero's intention - is accurate, then it's a pretty discouraging assessment of the team leadership....and I'm not talking about Morrow and Iginla.

But, each and everyone of us knew that is what the team needed at the time. Most of us blamed the recent playoff failures on the lack of a Billy Guerin or Gary Roberts...someone who could come in and keep our YOUNG vets in line and focused. Morrow and Iginla (gulp) both failed at that cause.


They had Roberts, they had Guerin... how many more years are our YOUNG vets going to need someone to keep them in line and focused, and at what point are they going to take responsibility for themselves and their huge contracts?

Well, we've been expecting that from our "superstars" since they won the Cup. It hasn't happened yet.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Desiato on Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:13 pm

If the cap space was there, I'd bring back Morrow because I believe he can be a contributor on the Pens. I really liked how he played around the net. I think the Pens need more of that kind of play.

While I don't think the Pens have a leadership deficiency, he might be a good role model for players such as Sutter and Bennett.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:52 am

pcm wrote:Brendan Morrow 40 years old? I would have stopped reading there, but it was at the end of your post. :face:

The guy is 2 months older than Kunitz, who we just gave a 4 year contract.

Morrow got pushed out of Dallas because the team is in rebuild mode. They were ready to hand over the keys of the franchise to the next generation. Can you imagine working in that environment? Of course your production is going to nose dive.

He came in here and was almost a ppg player until he got moved to checking line duties with Sutter. And then he became one of the best Corsi players on the team. But okay, let's say he's useless because he was brought in to "fix" the team's issues and they still got swept by Boston.

Bravo.



Meh, he got shipped out of Dallas because he wasn't very good and dummies were willing to part with assets to get him. They signed 2 40 year olds to 2 year deals (Whitney and Gonchar), if he was good and not an upcoming UFA they would have kept him. They have decent talent there, guys like Morrow would be much needed with all the young forwards they have on the team and in e system. I never judge anyone's regular season numbers with the Pens, they play open and their are lots of points to go around. Heck Jussi was a "genius" pick up based on his pre playoffs play.

His stats were fine in the playoffs because he was asked to do absolutely nothing but clog up the neutral zone. Really, absolutely nothing. That 3rd line skated in mud and provided nothing else to the team. If they were asked to try to change momentum or cycle, push the zone that line would have been out classed by the Isles or Bruins.

I have no problem with Ray attempting to get guys like him in for the playoffs, even though at some point our stars with what, 10 trophies between them need to take that roll. Morrow just wasn't going to cut it. He is like a car with all city miles and not highway miles.

there are a lot of teams with decent cap space left. The fact that he isn't signed yet and crankshaft signed for so little should tell everyone something.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby pcm on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:32 am

Well... when the Pens put it into cruise control again in the the playoffs, we'll be wishing we had a few more guys who'd drive downtown.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:00 am

sure, lets also hope they don't have 200,000 city miles already. I agree in theory he was what needed. In reality as a player he just can't cut it anymore.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Jesse on Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:53 pm

pcm wrote:Brendan Morrow 40 years old? I would have stopped reading there, but it was at the end of your post. :face:

The guy is 2 months older than Kunitz, who we just gave a 4 year contract.

Morrow got pushed out of Dallas because the team is in rebuild mode. They were ready to hand over the keys of the franchise to the next generation. Can you imagine working in that environment? Of course your production is going to nose dive.

He came in here and was almost a ppg player until he got moved to checking line duties with Sutter. And then he became one of the best Corsi players on the team. But okay, let's say he's useless because he was brought in to "fix" the team's issues and they still got swept by Boston.

Bravo.


Okay, I misthought he was 36 going on 37 this year. But if you want to disregard the rest of my insight I've tried to provide based on that misunderstanding, that's cool too.

While we're pointing out misnomers, Morrow's Corsi in the playoffs was -13.90, in the regular season it was -14.00 excluding Dallas. Those numbers are nowhere near one of the best on the team. I would have stopped reading there, but that was at the end of your post.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby pfim on Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:06 pm

Meh, whatever. Happy trails.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Kovy27 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:09 pm

pfim wrote:Meh, whatever. Happy trails.


Did he actually sign somewhere?
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby pcm on Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:25 pm

Jesse wrote:
pcm wrote:Brendan Morrow 40 years old? I would have stopped reading there, but it was at the end of your post. :face:

The guy is 2 months older than Kunitz, who we just gave a 4 year contract.

Morrow got pushed out of Dallas because the team is in rebuild mode. They were ready to hand over the keys of the franchise to the next generation. Can you imagine working in that environment? Of course your production is going to nose dive.

He came in here and was almost a ppg player until he got moved to checking line duties with Sutter. And then he became one of the best Corsi players on the team. But okay, let's say he's useless because he was brought in to "fix" the team's issues and they still got swept by Boston.

Bravo.


Okay, I misthought he was 36 going on 37 this year. But if you want to disregard the rest of my insight I've tried to provide based on that misunderstanding, that's cool too.

While we're pointing out misnomers, Morrow's Corsi in the playoffs was -13.90, in the regular season it was -14.00 excluding Dallas. Those numbers are nowhere near one of the best on the team. I would have stopped reading there, but that was at the end of your post.


Okay, wait, didn't you post a defense of Sutter during the playoffs saying that his impeccable defensive work more than makes up for his black hole on offense? Sutter was 3rd worst Corsi on the team during the playoffs.

Not sure if that line just got destroyed against Bos or maybe you were just posting Corsi QoC, but whatever stats you were using to defend Sutter, Morrow was right there with him. That's what I was "recalling" in my post.

Just another case of using stats to back up, instead of inform, your perspective. I saw an effective player in Morrow. I saw a timid player in Sutter (in the playoffs, I think he'll be fine moving forward). You saw the opposite. Throw some stats back and forth. Yay.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Jesse on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:50 pm

pcm wrote:
Jesse wrote:
pcm wrote:Brendan Morrow 40 years old? I would have stopped reading there, but it was at the end of your post. :face:

The guy is 2 months older than Kunitz, who we just gave a 4 year contract.

Morrow got pushed out of Dallas because the team is in rebuild mode. They were ready to hand over the keys of the franchise to the next generation. Can you imagine working in that environment? Of course your production is going to nose dive.

He came in here and was almost a ppg player until he got moved to checking line duties with Sutter. And then he became one of the best Corsi players on the team. But okay, let's say he's useless because he was brought in to "fix" the team's issues and they still got swept by Boston.

Bravo.


Okay, I misthought he was 36 going on 37 this year. But if you want to disregard the rest of my insight I've tried to provide based on that misunderstanding, that's cool too.

While we're pointing out misnomers, Morrow's Corsi in the playoffs was -13.90, in the regular season it was -14.00 excluding Dallas. Those numbers are nowhere near one of the best on the team. I would have stopped reading there, but that was at the end of your post.


Okay, wait, didn't you post a defense of Sutter during the playoffs saying that his impeccable defensive work more than makes up for his black hole on offense? Sutter was 3rd worst Corsi on the team during the playoffs.

Not sure if that line just got destroyed against Bos or maybe you were just posting Corsi QoC, but whatever stats you were using to defend Sutter, Morrow was right there with him. That's what I was "recalling" in my post.

Just another case of using stats to back up, instead of inform, your perspective. I saw an effective player in Morrow. I saw a timid player in Sutter (in the playoffs, I think he'll be fine moving forward). You saw the opposite. Throw some stats back and forth. Yay.


I thought Morrow did an admirable job in the playoffs, especially considering the nature of his injury. My main point, which I think you're missing, is that his on-ice ability took a backseat to his presence in the room when you ask the question of "Why did Ray Shero bring him here in the first place?" The reality of the situation is that the front office expected a little more out of him in the room, and it wasn't there, whether we agree with that strategy or not.

Skill wise, he's become a gritty presence on the ice that you can find virtually anywhere in the NHL. And it's my belief that if the Penguins had the resources to sign a player of that ilk, they would have focused their attention elsewhere. I'm not going to bemoan the loss of Brendan Morrow (not saying you are) all over the internet because in reality the guy does what plenty of younger guys do who are in a lot better shape physically speaking and in the uptick of their career.

My defense of Sutter was in the goals against numbers to back up the job he was doing defensively on the ice. I try to use advanced stats to back up what the eye test tells people, or to refute, whatever the case may be. At the end of the day, statistics are statistics, and I am not going to live and die by what they say, I do believe they provide excellent insight though.

FWIW, Sutter's lines throughout his NHL career have always been buried as far as Corsi is concerned. But his goals against numbers are phenomenal. It's really something to behold when you think about it. Morrow should be applauded for his work defensively in the playoffs considering some of his gaffe's when he first arrived here.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby shmenguin on Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:21 pm

the takeaway from sutter's low GAA and poor Corsi seems to be that he's basically a 3rd defenseman whose points are typically the result of one-and-done rushes as opposed to sustained pressure. if you look at the way he scored this year, it all adds up.

i see the merit in this type of player, but combined with the futility of our 4th line, i don't see employing this type of 3rd line center as a winning strategy.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Defence21 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:24 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Meh, he got shipped out of Dallas because he wasn't very good and dummies were willing to part with assets to get him. They signed 2 40 year olds to 2 year deals (Whitney and Gonchar), if he was good and not an upcoming UFA they would have kept him. They have decent talent there, guys like Morrow would be much needed with all the young forwards they have on the team and in e system.

I disagree. It's my understanding that Morrow was traded because the Stars were ready to hand the team to Jamie Benn, who was ready to step out of Morrow's shadows as the team leader. Much similar to what happened in Calgary with Iginla, the Stars simply were ready for a changing of the guard that wouldn't and couldn't happen with Morrow there. Whitney and Gonchar were brought in as short-term revolving-door type players. Their age is irrelevant.

Think of it as a Lemieux/Crosby thing. As long as Lemieux played, it was his team, regardless of Crosby's skills. Lemieux retired and Crosby took over as "the man." That's what happened in Dallas with Morrow and Benn.

As for Morrow overall, I'd like to have him back in Pittsburgh as a third liner at around $1.5 - $2 million (cap issues not withstanding). He's precisely what is needed on the third line, even if his wheels aren't what they once were. His grit, in-your-face/run-through-a-wall-to-win attitude, and finishing skills (even if diminishing) certainly wouldn't hurt the team, considering the third/fourth lines are lacking in identity.
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Re: Not Re-signing Morrow a HUGE mistake

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:43 pm

I don't think MOrrow's and Iginla's situations were similar. They needed to salvage some kind of value out of Iginla to go into full rebuild. There is no one on that team waiting in the ranks. The Stars could have conceivably competed this year, they have a team that should be decent moving forward into next season.
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