Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby pcm on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:33 pm

Lists are always terrible. Yet people keep making them for others to revel in their terribleness.

If you read the analsysis from Burnside/Lebrun, they were surprised Morrow was so low. He was a PPG player here until the playoffs when his role changed & he got hurt.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Mad City Mike on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:36 pm

One can argue the specifics all day. He probably is Top 25. But he isn't elite. At best, he's a run-of-the-mill NHL goalie in the regular season. That's what the stats say.

My mind says, who would I take him over if I needed a goalie?

Answer:
Whoever Calgary's goalie is
Varlamov
Nabokov
Lindback/Bishop
Pavelec

Hmmm, that puts him dangerously close to the Top 25 line. Maybe it isn't so outrageous after all.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby penny lane on Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:46 pm

It is about the clutch save in post -season. Flower has to go through the year and wait for redemption.

Thinking about being clutch; last play-off clutch goal scored by Sidney or Evgeni was maybe 2010 for Sid against Ottawa ?
The team has to figure out how to be at their best in the post-season.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:02 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:One can argue the specifics all day. He probably is Top 25. But he isn't elite. At best, he's a run-of-the-mill NHL goalie in the regular season. That's what the stats say.

My mind says, who would I take him over if I needed a goalie?

Answer:
Whoever Calgary's goalie is
Varlamov
Nabokov
Lindback/Bishop
Pavelec

Hmmm, that puts him dangerously close to the Top 25 line. Maybe it isn't so outrageous after all.


How about Mason/Emery in Philly?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:03 pm

Id say neither of them would prevent the pens from making the playoffs so they are ~=. Emery is anyway...until that trade i forgot mason existed.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:18 pm

I've said it before, here, and 4 years later it is just as true. The goaltender has 1 main job: keep the puck out of the net! And, he is the only one with that specific job. Some individual goals might be able to be blamed on someone else, but bottom line is that it is the goaltender's job, and ONLY the goaltender's job to actually keep the puck out of the net. Period.

If your goalie is mental and therefore has difficulty doing that.. you should actively look elsewhere.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby pcm on Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:43 pm

Sorry JIm, I'm pretty sure "keeping the puck out of the net" is on the job description of everyone on the ice + 2 of the three coaches behind the bench.

The difference is that besides disrupting dump-ins, its the only thing on a goalie's job description. But that doesn't make it only the goalie's job.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:10 pm

Willie Kool wrote:Seems about right to me. His save % in 2012-13 ranked him 24th in the NHL, 2011-12 he was 28th.

Edit: That said, I sincerely hope he has/will overcome whatever issues he's had and puts up a career year.


I don't understand what I'm reading. There is only one category that is relevant to a goaltender; wins, in which MAF was 4th last year and 2nd 2011-12. Played a ton both years.

ESPN doesn't know hockey. Its that simple.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:25 pm

Which is exactly why jose theodore is better than henrik lundqvist.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby slappybrown on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:49 pm

Pitt87 wrote:
Willie Kool wrote:Seems about right to me. His save % in 2012-13 ranked him 24th in the NHL, 2011-12 he was 28th.

Edit: That said, I sincerely hope he has/will overcome whatever issues he's had and puts up a career year.


I don't understand what I'm reading. There is only one category that is relevant to a goaltender; wins, in which MAF was 4th last year and 2nd 2011-12. Played a ton both years.

ESPN doesn't know hockey. Its that simple.

Wins are without question the least relevant category in evaluating a goalie.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:22 am

Pitt87 wrote:I don't understand what I'm reading. There is only one category that is relevant to a goaltender; wins, in which MAF was 4th last year and 2nd 2011-12. Played a ton both years.


I'm not sure what I'm reading here. I agree with Slappy, if you are making the claim that "wins" is the only category relevant to how good of a goaltender you actually have, that's absurd. Wins are dependent on so many other factors...if you play for an offensive juggernaut, naturally you will have a chance to win more games. Save percentage is light years more relevant than "wins".

Pitt87 wrote:ESPN doesn't know hockey. Its that simple.


Not even sure what this means either. Sure, ESPN's hockey coverage lacks at times, but their hockey writers and analysts probably know a lot more about the sport than you do, no offense.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:06 am

shafnutz05 wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:I don't understand what I'm reading. There is only one category that is relevant to a goaltender; wins, in which MAF was 4th last year and 2nd 2011-12. Played a ton both years.


I'm not sure what I'm reading here. I agree with Slappy, if you are making the claim that "wins" is the only category relevant to how good of a goaltender you actually have, that's absurd. Wins are dependent on so many other factors...if you play for an offensive juggernaut, naturally you will have a chance to win more games. Save percentage is light years more relevant than "wins".


Ok ok... I may have overstated... plenty of relevant categories. That said, stopping the puck enough times to win more times that others is as relevant as stopping the puck a larger proportion of the time than others. As for its dependence; are you saying that sv% isn't dependant on other factors?

shafnutz05 wrote:Sure, ESPN's hockey coverage lacks at times, but their hockey writers and analysts probably know a lot more about the sport than you do, no offense.


They probably do; I'm sure you have point in saying that -- and saying no offense after you point your response at me and not the topic doesn't absolve you, as I have pointed out to you privately before -- but I don't see how that proves that their staff writers are correct with their assessment of NHL goalies. I'll cede Hradek/Lebrun, but this certainly does not read as an 'ESPN Hockey writers weigh in'... closer to Buzzfeed, IMO. Maybe that's more your speed anyway... no offense.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:10 am

:lol: I prefer Bleacher Report, thank you very much.

Save percentage is certainly relevant upon other factors (the quality of opponent shots, most notably), so I completely agree with you there.

From a strictly qualitative perspective, I can't really disagree with this list too much. I don't really think "wins" is important in terms of goaltender skill though. Just like an MLB pitcher with a 4.50 ERA that plays for an elite offensive squad, that number will be inflated. Of course, ERA is probably a much more relevant measure of performance than SV%, but that's going off on a tangent.

In defense of save pct., I would argue that the best goaltenders in the league tend to have the higher save percentages...while team defense plays a varying role in that, by and large it's a pretty solid indicator of how good a goalie has been. But it's certainly not the end all be all, to your point.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:33 am

pcm wrote:Sorry JIm, I'm pretty sure "keeping the puck out of the net" is on the job description of everyone on the ice + 2 of the three coaches behind the bench.

The difference is that besides disrupting dump-ins, its the only thing on a goalie's job description. But that doesn't make it only the goalie's job.


No, he is the only one with that specific job. Even the rules support that. No one else wears the pads. No one else is positioned in front of the net. No one else can freeze a puck in the paint. Everyone else can cross center red, etc.

The goalie does transition the puck to the offense and he can shoot the puck on net... but scoring goals is not his job. Sure he can aid in that ends... but that is not his job. Opposite side of the coin for forwards, coaches and even D. Yeah, that duty falls onto their job description somewhere, but it is down the list. It is the #1 spot for the goaltender.

However, it is an opinion based comment so we can disagree.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:14 am

I guess its an opinon, its an opinion that every person involved in organized hockey would agree with, but its still just an opinion.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:16 am

Mike Smith didn't magically get better at stopping the puck when he signed with Phoenix from Tampa Bay/Dallas.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shmenguin on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:28 am

if i'm looking at stats to determine how good a goalie is, i don't even take a peek at "wins".
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby JS© on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:36 am

Staggy wrote:If anyone wants a good lol I recommend reading ESPN's top 100 forwards. I realize these types of lists are hard to do but it may be the worst one I have ever seen.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/notebook/_/page/2013_nhlrank_forwards/

Spoiler: Brendan Morrow is on the list, along with KHL Kovalchuk :face:


At least they acknowledged that KHLovalchuk is no longer on an NHL team. They still have Morrow listed with the Penguins.

They're also using Phaneuf's pic from his Calgary days on the dman list, which is almost 4 years old.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby sil on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:01 pm

Hmm, I do find it interesting that Pascal "I own the league in 5-on-5 goals scored even though my centerman's been injured most of the last two years" Dupuis isn't even in the top-100.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby pcm on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:52 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I guess its an opinon, its an opinion that every person involved in organized hockey would agree with, but its still just an opinion.


When semantics is lost on someone, it ends up looking like just some antics.

If you ask Paul Martin if it's his job to make sure the puck doesn't end up in the back of the net, what do you think he'll say?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:54 pm

Isn't the #1 job of a defenseman to play defense?

Isn't the object of playing defense to not let the other team score?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby penny lane on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:56 pm

sil wrote:Hmm, I do find it interesting that Pascal "I own the league in 5-on-5 goals scored even though my centerman's been injured most of the last two years" Dupuis isn't even in the top-100.

:thumb:
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:26 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Isn't the #1 job of a defenseman to play defense?

Isn't the object of playing defense to not let the other team score?


Yes and yes. That doesn't change the statement that the goaltenders main job is to keep the puck out of the net and that he is the only one with that specific job.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Crankshaft on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:30 pm

I just can't even consider a scenario in which I would feel comfortable replacing Fleury. The only player this off-season that I would have considered rolling the dice with would have been Jonathan Bernier. There is no way you can roll the dice with Hartzel or Zackoff with Vokoun this season. With that said, I don't get the continued complaining & axe grinding if no scenario is in place that would be better than what we have now.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:49 pm

Crankshaft wrote:I just can't even consider a scenario in which I would feel comfortable replacing Fleury.


A realistic scenario... I agree, which is the biggest part of the problem. However, if your car sucks but you don't have the money for a new one... that does not mean you car suddenly doesn't suck anymore. You still complain about the problems it has and try to resolve/replace it.
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