Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby columbia on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:46 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Fleury and Vokoun are 2 different goalies. Fleury is at his best when he isn't scrambling around covering the defense's mistakes because he was never taught how to handle it. Vokoun, with the experience, can play with a crappy D because he's been playing with crappy defenses his entire career (especially during his time in Florida, where he consistently saw 40+ shots a game), and has learned from experience.

So yes, it is possible that 2 goalies can play differently with the same defense in front of them.


I'm not sure if you intended to, but you just made an argument for Vokoun being the better goalie.

Also: Vokoun was capable of learning to deal with adversity through experience, but it has to be taught to MAF? He's not capable of learning on his own?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:47 pm

tfrizz wrote:Fair enough. I didn't read the article that closely.


I didn't either at first, but then was like "why are these guys on the list" and looked back up at the top.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby czwalga on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:48 pm

tfrizz wrote:
czwalga wrote:So we're back to the argument that Pittsburgh gives up more super shots than any other team, and fleury is not a good goalie to handle that. We need a worse goalie, but someone better at playing with a **** defense.

Wow


Where are you getting that?



Fleury and Vokoun are 2 different goalies. Fleury is at his best when he isn't scrambling around covering the defense's mistakes because he was never taught how to handle it. Vokoun, with the experience, can play with a crappy D because he's been playing with crappy defenses his entire career, and has learned from experience.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shmenguin on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:48 pm

tfrizz wrote:
shmenguin wrote:i haven't even looked at the list, but if i was headed into the playoffs today, i'd take any of the guys in the top 25 over fleury.


I wouldn't take Emery over him and I wouldn't feel overly confident with Smith either.


all things equal, i'd bet on either of these guys to outplay fleury in a playoff series right now.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:52 pm

shmenguin wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
shmenguin wrote:i haven't even looked at the list, but if i was headed into the playoffs today, i'd take any of the guys in the top 25 over fleury.


I wouldn't take Emery over him and I wouldn't feel overly confident with Smith either.


all things equal, i'd bet on either of these guys to outplay fleury in a playoff series right now.


No offense shmenguin, but that is a terrible bet at things equal.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MarioLives on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:55 pm

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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shmenguin on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:57 pm

Rylan wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
shmenguin wrote:i haven't even looked at the list, but if i was headed into the playoffs today, i'd take any of the guys in the top 25 over fleury.


I wouldn't take Emery over him and I wouldn't feel overly confident with Smith either.


all things equal, i'd bet on either of these guys to outplay fleury in a playoff series right now.


No offense shmenguin, but that is a terrible bet at things equal.


none taken. though i'm wondering if your opinion is the result of a short memory or just faith that the last 2 years weren't the "real" fleury in the playoffs. or if this is that weird thing where people think him scoring on himself 3 or 4 times was some sort of team issue.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:59 pm

Odd that Nashville had one of the best goalies and two of the best Dmen and yet...
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shmenguin on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:59 pm



the subban thing is funny. if letang stays healthy for a couple more games, PK doesn't win the norris, and his status-level is significantly different.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:00 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Rylan wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
shmenguin wrote:i haven't even looked at the list, but if i was headed into the playoffs today, i'd take any of the guys in the top 25 over fleury.


I wouldn't take Emery over him and I wouldn't feel overly confident with Smith either.


all things equal, i'd bet on either of these guys to outplay fleury in a playoff series right now.


No offense shmenguin, but that is a terrible bet at things equal.


none taken. though i'm wondering if your opinion is the result of a short memory or just faith that the last 2 years weren't the "real" fleury in the playoffs. or if this is that weird thing where people think him scoring on himself 3 or 4 times was some sort of team issue.


Emery is playing on one hip and is below average technically.

Smith is a big goalie that occupies space. Outside of that, I am not impressed with his lateral movements nor his glove hand. When exposed (as in not insulated) he gets torched.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:00 pm

Jim wrote:Odd that Nashville had one of the best goalies and two of the best Dmen and yet...


No one on that team could score.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:01 pm

I just noticed that Orpik is not on that list... but I though that he was such a beast?!?!?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:03 pm

Jim wrote:I just noticed that Orpik is not on that list... but I though that he was such a beast?!?!?


To be fair, if every team had their top 2 defensemen on the list, it would exceed the 50.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:05 pm

Rylan wrote:
Jim wrote:I just noticed that Orpik is not on that list... but I though that he was such a beast?!?!?


To be fair, if every team had their top 2 defensemen on the list, it would exceed the 50.


Orpik isnt one of our top 2 anymore.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:05 pm

Rylan wrote:
Jim wrote:I just noticed that Orpik is not on that list... but I though that he was such a beast?!?!?


To be fair, if every team had their top 2 defensemen on the list, it would exceed the 50.


Zing!
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:06 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
Rylan wrote:
Jim wrote:I just noticed that Orpik is not on that list... but I though that he was such a beast?!?!?


To be fair, if every team had their top 2 defensemen on the list, it would exceed the 50.


Orpik isnt one of our top 2 anymore.


Wasn't the point. The point was there are going to be a plethora of good defensemen that weren't going to make the list.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Gaucho on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:07 pm

What he said.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:11 pm

columbia wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Fleury and Vokoun are 2 different goalies. Fleury is at his best when he isn't scrambling around covering the defense's mistakes because he was never taught how to handle it. Vokoun, with the experience, can play with a crappy D because he's been playing with crappy defenses his entire career (especially during his time in Florida, where he consistently saw 40+ shots a game), and has learned from experience.

So yes, it is possible that 2 goalies can play differently with the same defense in front of them.


I'm not sure if you intended to, but you just made an argument for Vokoun being the better goalie.

Also: Vokoun was capable of learning to deal with adversity through experience, but it has to be taught to MAF? He's not capable of learning on his own?


Vokoun is what, 35? Fleury isn't even 30 yet, and hasn't had a legitimate goalie coach his entire career (and still came away with a cup ring).

I never said Vokoun had to learn it on his own (though I can see how you came to that). I was implying Vokoin received the proper training from the get-go and was able to carry the Pens when the defense broke down because he was used to dealing with it in Florida.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby jimjom on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:14 pm

Could really do without the pictures of each player on the list.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:16 pm

Nobody said anything about Fleury not having a legit goalie coach when he went to back to back Stanley Cup Finals. IMO, the problem with Fleury is mental. Until he gets his head right, he will continue to fail.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby columbia on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:20 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Nobody said anything about Fleury not having a legit goalie coach when he went to back to back Stanley Cup Finals. IMO, the problem with Fleury is mental. Until he gets his head right, he will continue to fail.


PGH fans - more than most, it seems - really like to blame the coaching staff; regardless of the sport.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shmenguin on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:25 pm

Rylan wrote:Emery is playing on one hip and is below average technically.

Smith is a big goalie that occupies space. Outside of that, I am not impressed with his lateral movements nor his glove hand. When exposed (as in not insulated) he gets torched.


i also think emery isn't any good and smith is overrated. with that said, fleury is historically bad when it matters. i'll take fleury in the month of november. right now, i'll take almost anyone else in april-june
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:26 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Rylan wrote:Emery is playing on one hip and is below average technically.

Smith is a big goalie that occupies space. Outside of that, I am not impressed with his lateral movements nor his glove hand. When exposed (as in not insulated) he gets torched.


i also think emery isn't any good and smith is overrated. with that said, fleury is historically bad when it matters. i'll take fleury in the month of november. right now, i'll take almost anyone else in april-june


I still disagree, but I see your point.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:31 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Nobody said anything about Fleury not having a legit goalie coach when he went to back to back Stanley Cup Finals. IMO, the problem with Fleury is mental. Until he gets his head right, he will continue to fail.


I'd argue that goes back into the whole thing about the defense in front of him.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:38 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Rylan wrote:Emery is playing on one hip and is below average technically.

Smith is a big goalie that occupies space. Outside of that, I am not impressed with his lateral movements nor his glove hand. When exposed (as in not insulated) he gets torched.


i also think emery isn't any good and smith is overrated. with that said, fleury is historically bad when it matters. i'll take fleury in the month of november. right now, i'll take almost anyone else in april-june


And that's just it... you know what you're getting out of Fleury from October through March - good, steady, strong goaltending with the odd bad game (or two) sprinkled throughout. It's when the pressure gets turned up that things start to go south.
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