Fleury is done

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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:16 pm

Jim wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:It's not what other options are there it's what other options were there. Namely Bernier and Schnieder were available.


The peoblem with the Pens going after those two is that those teams were not looking to take a "starter" goalie back. Flueiry would have needed to have been moved and neither team would have wanted him.

There are plenty of teams that would take on Fleury for salary reasons to get to the cap floor. Fleury didn't have to go to those teams.

As for all these people "Get the sanity and logic out of here Mikey" get real. The people saying Fleury is done in this thread have referred to his now clear track record of riding a hot offensive team in the regular season while he has average numbers to totally choking and blowing up in the playoffs. As someone said earlier "Win as a team, lose as a team." but you don't give up a goal on the first shot you see from just inside the blue line as a team. The Fleury detractors have solid evidence of him being done, lets not act like this is overreaction.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby tfrizz on Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:22 pm

Jim wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:From capgeek:

CLAUSES: Limited NMC (starting July 1, 2010, only prevents being placed on waivers); Limited NTC (can designate a list of teams he will accept a trade to)


I would think that the actual clause would have a number of teams associated with it.


tfrizz wrote:That's correct, but given the number of teams that'd actually be interested in him (5? maybe?) it's effectively a full NTC since he could just list all the teams that have absolutely no interest in him as "will accept trade to".


That would be an uber-bastard move and only support the need for him to be removed from the team.


It would be, and I can't see Fleury actually doing it - but he could.

I recall Shero mentioning that he received a number of calls inquiring about Fleury, but all he got were lowball offers (go figure). It may sound crazy, but at this point in time Fleury has more value to the team than he does on the market.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Rylan on Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:22 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
Jim wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:It's not what other options are there it's what other options were there. Namely Bernier and Schnieder were available.


The peoblem with the Pens going after those two is that those teams were not looking to take a "starter" goalie back. Flueiry would have needed to have been moved and neither team would have wanted him.

There are plenty of teams that would take on Fleury for salary reasons to get to the cap floor. Fleury didn't have to go to those teams.

As for all these people "Get the sanity and logic out of here Mikey" get real. The people saying Fleury is done in this thread have referred to his now clear track record of riding a hot offensive team in the regular season while he has average numbers to totally choking and blowing up in the playoffs. As someone said earlier "Win as a team, lose as a team." but you don't give up a goal on the first shot you see from just inside the blue line as a team. The Fleury detractors have solid evidence of him being done, lets not act like this is overreaction.


Done is a sense of finality that is incorrect though. Fleury continues to show glimmers that he can get it done, and with a coach that is strong in teaching positioning and re-emphasizing fundamentals should help Fleury bounce back into a more competent goalie. So in a sense, done is an overreaction. Being pessimistic about the likelihood of him bouncing back is probably a more apt statement that is more correct.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Jim on Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:24 pm

The problem with moving Fluery to one of those teams is who takes over the net? That is why the Miller/Fleury idea makes some sense. While it doesn't solve the problem for either team, both teams get rid of a problem, appear to be trying, plus have someone that can start.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Mango Salsa on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:06 pm

There I fixed it

Image
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Crankshaft on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:09 pm

Talking about trading Fleury, especially now, is silly. It's just not going to happen. You might as well talk about trading Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:10 pm

Crankshaft wrote:Talking about trading Fleury, especially now, is silly. It's just not going to happen. You might as well talk about trading Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin.


Its early still, but don't worry, we never miss that.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby DudeMan2766 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:23 pm

Fleury won't be done until this thread reaches 29 pages :pop:
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby tfrizz on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:27 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:Talking about trading Fleury, especially now, is silly. It's just not going to happen. You might as well talk about trading Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin.


Its early still, but don't worry, we never miss that.


Malkin + Fleury for Kopitar + Quick?
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby mikey287 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:29 pm

As many know, I have a reputation of being a strong Fleury supporter. At times, maybe the strongest. Even I am quite concerned at this point, to be honest. Last playoffs was the first time I really didn't believe Fleury gave us the best chance to win and wanted him to be benched.

I've seen him play a little bit in the preseason, and it doesn't look so hot so far. Now, there's a new goalie coach, a new assistant coach and I'm willing to give that time because the team is actively addressing obvious concerns. And that needs time to percolate. Though, I'll say my patience is running thin on Fleury (tough for me to type that...).

That said, let's not create any kind of revisionist history here. Fleury was unbelievable in 2008 and minus the Washington series, was unbelievable in 2009. He was the best player or second best player in our early round exit in 2007 vs. Ottawa as well. Now...since then...well...that's not worth going into again, various factors...the series without Crosby/Malkin, the cluster**** in Philly, etc. But lots on Fleury as well during that time as well...

I hope that this team can employ a more defensively-conscious system while helping to snap Fleury out of this prolonged funk...but the leash is as short as it has ever been for me...which means there isn't a link left on the chain for most of you.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:49 pm

Yeah, I'd definitely say Fleury was better in 08 than 09. Maybe not better, but definitely not worse. He would have been gone a while ago if not for that cup win, and that would have probably been a disservice.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby mikey287 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:19 pm

2013 Fleury is not the same goaltender as 2008 Fleury.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby pens_CT on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:37 pm

mikey287 wrote:2013 Fleury is not the same goaltender as 2008 Fleury.

In your opinion are the differences strictly a lack of confidence, or do you see technical differences between now and 2008?
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby mikey287 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:55 pm

pens_CT wrote:
mikey287 wrote:2013 Fleury is not the same goaltender as 2008 Fleury.

In your opinion are the differences strictly a lack of confidence, or do you see technical differences between now and 2008?


I think one leads to the other. There was never any doubt that Fleury had/has the tools to be an incredible goalie. We saw brilliant flashes of that. I mean, I still shake my head in awe at game 5 of the 2008 Stanley Cup Final. He was rough technically early on, really improved for a while, and now he's regressing...it's snowballing on him.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:01 pm

pens_CT wrote:
mikey287 wrote:2013 Fleury is not the same goaltender as 2008 Fleury.

In your opinion are the differences strictly a lack of confidence, or do you see technical differences between now and 2008?


I'd say the differences in Fleury's game between 08 and 13 are predominantly psychological rather than technical/stylistic. When compared to his first few seasons his stance and skating are more reserved, he relies on his athleticism less (mainly because his positioning and rebound control have improved), however these are all aspects of his game that still require improvement/refinement. Shockingly his stickhandling is actually better but his processing time and decision making with the puck hinder any technical improvements. MAF's technical ability remains one of his strengths, the weaknesses seem rooted in his mind. He has yet to reach the potential that is promised in the physical side of his game.

For the record I'm a huge Fleury fan and agree with Mikey's premise that you can't rebuild Rome in a day - real results will likely take longer than one offseason, but the clock is ticking. On a side note Mikey - what is your opinion on Jeff Deslauriers? AHL fodder or potential challenge to JZ for future backup?
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby mikey287 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:34 pm

I'll admit I kinda liked JDD when he was on my prospect radar. He's very athletic. He's big, he can get across the crease, make a big save. Like I always say, the biggest difference between goalies today isn't the talent, it's the consistency in which they can bring that talent to the forefront. That's where JDD loses out for me. He had those bad ass gold pads in Edmonton at one point though, and I think he's a right glove, so he's got my vote of confidence (is he serious...?)

He's looking like a career #3 though, good organizational depth, might be able to hop in in a pinch, but he's not a viable solution for very much...
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby tfrizz on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:35 pm

Just thought I'd mention that those who though the Pens could've got Tim Thomas cheap were pretty far off. He signed a 1-year deal worth "between $3- and $4-million" with Florida.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby mikey287 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:39 pm

Yeah, the cap hit is $3.75M. He'd get lit the **** up here in Pittsburgh, excuse my French. Remember what he looked like before he got behind Julien and Chara? One of the league's worst goalies...let's see how he does in Florida...
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby skullman80 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:52 pm

mikey287 wrote:Yeah, the cap hit is $3.75M. He'd get lit the **** up here in Pittsburgh, excuse my French. Remember what he looked like before he got behind Julien and Chara? One of the league's worst goalies...let's see how he does in Florida...


Man you hate Thomas like no other. It's one of the few things you are totally irrational on.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby mikey287 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:16 pm

skullman80 wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Yeah, the cap hit is $3.75M. He'd get lit the **** up here in Pittsburgh, excuse my French. Remember what he looked like before he got behind Julien and Chara? One of the league's worst goalies...let's see how he does in Florida...


Man you hate Thomas like no other. It's one of the few things you are totally irrational on.


It's pretty on point. Clearly, thoroughly described talent analysis.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:25 pm

2006-2007, the year before Claude Julien was hired as HC of the Bruins:

Thomas: 66 games, 30-29-4, .905 SV% and 3.13 GAA.

2008-2009, Claude Julien's 2nd year (given a year for better system implementation):

Thomas: 54 games, 36-11-7, .933 SV%, 2.10 GAA.

Yeah, I'd say Julien was a major part in his success.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby mikey287 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:27 pm

In before citing NCAA stats from 20 years ago or some other inferior league.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby pcm on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:54 pm

mikey's [ir?]rational dislike of Thomas will be put to the test this season, as Thomas has one of the worst D corp in the league in front of him.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby meow on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:05 pm

Mike and I don't always agree, but we agree 100% on Thomas. No talent hack is an understatement when it comes to Thomas.
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Re: Fleury is done

Postby Gaucho on Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:09 pm

So why can he get the job done and Flower can't?

Relatively speaking.
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