the Jacques Martin effect?

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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby Jesse on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:16 am

Jesse wrote:
sil wrote:Don't underestimate how important management feels Bylsma's popularity is...not just amongst this team, but other teams/players in the league as well.

I'm not saying that's the reason he's still here, but it shouldn't be entirely overlooked.


I disagree. It should be entirely overlooked.


Yes.

This team has a short window to win as many cups as possible. If management thought Bylsma wasn't suited for that, they'd have moved him. Period.

No one keeps coaches because of popularity. And if they do, they are the Buffalo Sabres up until they fired Ruff last year.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:20 am

I don't think very many people believe that Bylsma used Therrien's system, I think that many people believe that team defense was part of their game and the further from his tenure they get the less composed the team has been in their own zone. Reports that Rierden told Martin that they assume they are going to play in the offensive zone substantiate that.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby M10 on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:22 am

This is petty in the scheme of things but why is Martin and Granato on rotating bench duty and not Martin and Reirden?

Also, Bylsma comes off as a flake to me. Look no further than his comments regarding Bennett and Despres last off-season. We all know his flaws but we've all seen his strengths as well.

With that said, when it comes to the catalyst that is the playoffs... Our star, core, evolution, re-evolution, insert marketing hype slogan here needs to be better in the playoffs. Anyone on this team who clears 5 million a year in salary needs to buy a new jock strap come playoff time, or use bleach to get the stains out.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby Great58 on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:29 am

Jesse wrote:The biggest myth on the internet is "Bylsma used Therrien's system to win the cup."

It's simply not true. The both played a 1-2-2 and did it in a way that was night/day. Therrien's response to losing was to tighten it up. Bylsma's was to go the complete other direction and dictate at the offensive blueline instead of the defensive blueline.

They aren't even close.

Please don't introduce facts and reason into the discussion. :)
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby sil on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:35 am

Jesse wrote:
Jesse wrote:
sil wrote:Don't underestimate how important management feels Bylsma's popularity is...not just amongst this team, but other teams/players in the league as well.

I'm not saying that's the reason he's still here, but it shouldn't be entirely overlooked.


I disagree. It should be entirely overlooked.


Yes.

This team has a short window to win as many cups as possible. If management thought Bylsma wasn't suited for that, they'd have moved him. Period.

No one keeps coaches because of popularity. And if they do, they are the Buffalo Sabres up until they fired Ruff last year.


Well, I certainly don't think they kept him because of popularity alone...or even as a major part of their thinking.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:37 am

Idoit40fans wrote:Reports that Rierden told Martin that they assume they are going to play in the offensive zone substantiate that.


He basically did, I posted the article earlier in the thread. I was amazed to hear that coming from Reirden.... it was eye opening... the penguins did not spend much time on defensive zone coverage because their forwards always have the puck.... blew my mind.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby sil on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:43 am

DropEmJayBird wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Reports that Rierden told Martin that they assume they are going to play in the offensive zone substantiate that.


He basically did, I posted the article earlier in the thread. I was amazed to hear that coming from Reirden.... it was eye opening... the penguins did not spend much time on defensive zone coverage because their forwards always have the puck.... blew my mind.


Thus...Martin.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:48 am

Jesse wrote:The biggest myth on the internet is "Bylsma used Therrien's system to win the cup."

It's simply not true. The both played a 1-2-2 and did it in a way that was night/day. Therrien's response to losing was to tighten it up. Bylsma's was to go the complete other direction and dictate at the offensive blueline instead of the defensive blueline.

They aren't even close.


He didn't use Therrien's system specifically, but the core of it remained the same. Bylsma, himself, said that he didn't want to change their system at that point of the season so he was just going to make some tweaks to it... so it was neither Therrien's nor Bylsma's system, but Therrien's system modified by Bylsma.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby no name on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:17 pm

Jesse wrote:
Jesse wrote:
sil wrote:Don't underestimate how important management feels Bylsma's popularity is...not just amongst this team, but other teams/players in the league as well.

I'm not saying that's the reason he's still here, but it shouldn't be entirely overlooked.


I disagree. It should be entirely overlooked.


Yes.

This team has a short window to win as many cups as possible. If management thought Bylsma wasn't suited for that, they'd have moved him. Period.

No one keeps coaches because of popularity. And if they do, they are the Buffalo Sabres up until they fired Ruff last year.



It should be overlooked, but as Sil said our management feels his popularity with our players is something they want to keep around. Mario had a voice in this and i am sure he wants a coach our players enjoy playing for. I would think management asked Geno and Sid how they felt about Dan (althought i wouldn't agree with that). Players like Dan he stays, bring in a defensive minded coach and have him show Dan what you need to do to win in the playoffs.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby no name on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:21 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Jesse wrote:The biggest myth on the internet is "Bylsma used Therrien's system to win the cup."

It's simply not true. The both played a 1-2-2 and did it in a way that was night/day. Therrien's response to losing was to tighten it up. Bylsma's was to go the complete other direction and dictate at the offensive blueline instead of the defensive blueline.

They aren't even close.


He didn't use Therrien's system specifically, but the core of it remained the same. Bylsma, himself, said that he didn't want to change their system at that point of the season so he was just going to make some tweaks to it... so it was neither Therrien's nor Bylsma's system, but Therrien's system modified by Bylsma.


Bylsma said he used to same system but wanted the players to play more agressive attitude and attack play with more tempo. He moditvated them to play that way, which was great and helped us win the cup. But make no mistake it was Therians system. Players gave up on Therian and no longer played uptempo for him. Where Dan was able to make them play the same system uptempo that got them to the cup final the year befor.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:24 pm

Well it wasn't just more uptempo, the forecheck was pretty different. I guess they called it a 1-2-2, but it looked a lot like a pretty aggressive second man on the forecheck.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby M10 on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:34 pm

It's only been two games, but has anyone noticed that the pre-Bylsma era Orpik is back? He's actually taking the body in the defensive zone and punishing guys along the boards.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby Beveridge on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:37 pm

I think I remember it being said this was the first time in years (like pre-stanley cup finals years) that he hasn't had to have surgery or something in the offseason and was able to train fully this summer.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby no name on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:59 pm

Ultimatly i think what needed to be changed was Byslma playoff stance of Just play our system and we should win attitude. He rarely made adjustments to what the other teams were doing. Sure in the regular season you play a different team each night so adjusting your scheme to each team doesn't make sence. You just teach your system and go at it. And with the Penguins skill its pretty easy to win with almost any system.

But in the playoffs its all about adjusting to what they are doing and what you are doing against them. Dan never adjusted he kept staus quo, sure our skill still beat the Islanders and Ottawa but the Bruins out schemed us, they adjusted we didn't.

Also when you have to play a offensive style in the regular season its pretty hard for the players to turn 180 degrees and play a defensive strategy. Its best if you play a some what defensive system all year so you are ready to play that style in the playoffs.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby Great58 on Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:46 pm

DropEmJayBird wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Reports that Rierden told Martin that they assume they are going to play in the offensive zone substantiate that.


He basically did, I posted the article earlier in the thread. I was amazed to hear that coming from Reirden.... it was eye opening... the penguins did not spend much time on defensive zone coverage because their forwards always have the puck.... blew my mind.

I didn't interpret that quote to mean they they didn't work on defensive zone coverage issues. I believe he was just stating what he thought was a fact: that their defensive zone time was low due to their puck possessing forwards. Turns out he was incorrect in that premise, as the Pens had one of the worst Corsi rating of the playoff teams (18th in the league). But I didn't take that quote to imply the Penguins coaching staff felt it wasn't an area worthy of addressing.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:54 pm

Get to your game.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby no name on Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:25 pm

Great58 wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Reports that Rierden told Martin that they assume they are going to play in the offensive zone substantiate that.


He basically did, I posted the article earlier in the thread. I was amazed to hear that coming from Reirden.... it was eye opening... the penguins did not spend much time on defensive zone coverage because their forwards always have the puck.... blew my mind.

I didn't interpret that quote to mean they they didn't work on defensive zone coverage issues. I believe he was just stating what he thought was a fact: that their defensive zone time was low due to their puck possessing forwards. Turns out he was incorrect in that premise, as the Pens had one of the worst Corsi rating of the playoff teams (18th in the league). But I didn't take that quote to imply the Penguins coaching staff felt it wasn't an area worthy of addressing.


Either way its just a odd quote from Rierden, no matter how good you are at puck possession there is a whole other side of the game. No wonder Martin was brought in.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby bh on Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:13 am

Yeah, admitting that they don't work on defensive coverage all that much sounds pretty bad to me.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby KG on Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:50 am

If Bylsma allows Martin to work his magic on defensive coverage then this team can go places. With all of these assistant coaches in place, Bylsma is more like the Mayor of the Penguins as opposed to the head coach. Everyone likes him, he delegates authority, but he is in charge.

Call it whatever you want, just win baby....
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby DropEmJayBird on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:07 am

Great58 wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Reports that Rierden told Martin that they assume they are going to play in the offensive zone substantiate that.


He basically did, I posted the article earlier in the thread. I was amazed to hear that coming from Reirden.... it was eye opening... the penguins did not spend much time on defensive zone coverage because their forwards always have the puck.... blew my mind.

I didn't interpret that quote to mean they they didn't work on defensive zone coverage issues. I believe he was just stating what he thought was a fact: that their defensive zone time was low due to their puck possessing forwards. Turns out he was incorrect in that premise, as the Pens had one of the worst Corsi rating of the playoff teams (18th in the league). But I didn't take that quote to imply the Penguins coaching staff felt it wasn't an area worthy of addressing.


True, on second reading - he probably means they don't spend much time in the defensive zone during a game, but for him to provide that as an answer when the new assistant is asking him what changes they've put in place the past year... eh seems kind of odd.

I guess what I don't know is what Reirden's philosophy is personally and what exactly has he been asked to do by the FO. They may have told him "we want the puck out of our zone asap, retrieve it and move it to the forwards before the other team can apply pressure." That's great and all, but what happens when teams like the islanders, flyers take away those stretch passes selling out with their speed, or a team like the bruins just sit back and wait? Worse yet - what happens when we don't get the puck out - and have to rely on defensive zone coverage. The results and a quote like this lead me to believe it may not have been a team focus.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby Gaucho on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:12 am

bh wrote:Yeah, admitting that they don't work on defensive coverage all that much sounds pretty bad to me.


I don't think he did.
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby sil on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:29 am

KG wrote:If Bylsma allows Martin to work his magic on defensive coverage then this team can go places. With all of these assistant coaches in place, Bylsma is more like the Mayor of the Penguins as opposed to the head coach. Everyone likes him, he delegates authority, but he is in charge.

Call it whatever you want, just win babyGET TO YOUR GAME!!!....
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby columbia on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:30 am

What exactly is Reiden's role now?
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:39 am

He was apparently working the PP during the preseason (at least, he had the whiteboard when they called a TO during one of the games)
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Re: the Jacques Martin effect?

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:39 am

columbia wrote:What exactly is Reiden's role now?


Making Bylsma's hair look more substantial.
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