Do We Need Letang?

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Do the Penguins Need Letang?

Yes
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29%
No
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Total votes : 28

Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Stevens25 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:57 am

You guys yell every day about how the 3rd and 4th line can't create any offense.
Letang creates offense. Does he sacrifice his defensive responsibilities? Absolutely. I am going to wait a full year to see if J. Martin can instill some defensive responsibilties because what Letang adds on the offensive Even Strength of the ice is sorely needed.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Jim on Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:15 am

I believe that the problem with the team is attitude. We are once again sliding into the "country club" type feel. There are a few, maybe a handful, of players on the team that I believe believe that they can do no wrong and have no desire to change or improve. They feel that what they do is fine and everyone else just need to go with it. ... and management and ownership lets them. Until that changes you will just get flashes of brilliance but nothing long lasting.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:56 am

The thread is titled "do we NEED Letang"? The Pens answered this question already this season by winning consistently without him.

Yes, I was another of those people who desperately did not want him to be re-signed but Shero's loyalty overwhelms his brain a lot of the time. Like I keep saying, he isn't the genius everyone thinks he is, he was the one who was lucky enough to be able to draft Crosby and Geno which made other players want to come here and play as well.

I like Ray for sure, but I'm done with the "he can do no wrong" garbage.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:13 am

They've won more with him during the season. Does anyone care if they come in first or 8th in the regular season?
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby sil on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:23 am

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I like Ray for sure, but I'm done with the "he can do no wrong" garbage.


You probably shouldn't have had anything to do with it from the beginning.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:36 am

sil wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I like Ray for sure, but I'm done with the "he can do no wrong" garbage.


You probably shouldn't have had anything to do with it from the beginning.


Yeah that idea needed to be abandoned quite a while ago.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Pitt87 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:14 am

llipgh2 wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
farnham16 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Letang's problem is himself. No amount of coaching can reverse stupidity and lack of intelligence.


Nah. Taking ice time away when he plays with said stupidity over and over again would help send a message. Coaching is a factor.


Coaching is THE factor... because its the only thing thats been missing for the last 2 years. Its the entire reason that Jacques Martin is here. A little early to tell if its helping, but adjustments are in place.


True, but he isn't the head coach. He can only do what DB lets him.


Not certain thats the nature of their relationship, but I don't know for sure either. Hoping that the partnership includes ownership, and in particular Martin stepping up to do what he does best. IMO, his style would get the most from a guy like 58.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:23 pm

IF Letang continues his play from the playoffs, like he is this year, then no, we don't need him.

With his current play, it seems he brings more bad than good. Sure he can make a nice first pass and skate really well. However he has absolute brain farts in the defensive zone, he turns pucks over, he gets his shots blocked in the offensive zone more often than not, and when it finally does get through, it misses the net. He's been this way since he first came into the league. I remember these boards salivating at how good he would be when he finally starts hitting the net.....when does that start happening?

He isn't much of an asset on the power play either. Sure every so often he'll make a nice play and everyone will point to it and call out all the Letang haters, but let's be realistic, his nice play every so often doesn't make up for the gaffs he so often makes or his invisible cloak he wears.

I'm fine with his defensive shortcomings if he brought an offensive game, but he doesn't. Sure he'll rush the puck, but 9 times out of 10, he'll gain the zone and take a weak wrist shot on net that the goaltender easily controls. Never does he drive the net, pull up and look for a pass, or even hold on to the puck in the zone. It's always the same weak shot from the boards. He's not a goalscorer, yet with his shot and hands you'd think he'd be able to pot a few more. There's no reason he can't score like Green, Buff, Karlsson, Weber, Markov, etc. His career high of 10 goals seems a little low for someone with his skills.

Sure he puts up decent points, but that's always when Sid and Geno are in the lineup. As soon as they were out of the lineup, Letang's numbers dropped. Not that anyone wouldn't expect them to slightly, but he went absolutely AWOL. Then there's his temper and bad penalties that he tends to take when teams rattle his cage.

I just can't seem to find enough good things lately to justify what we'll be paying him. A couple years ago he was playing a strong game in his end and still contributing offensively enough to justify a nice contract. As of a couple games ago, he was the only minus player on the team. Not surprising Geno now took over at -5, while Letang is a minus 4, and Engo is a -5 as well.

Geno and Letang are and will be robbing this team blind. I wouldn't be upset if he was traded with his current play, however I'm willing to give a bit more time under Martin to see if he can actually get some hockey sense and figure it out. Maybe Martin can help Geno find his too.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby sjnhiils on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:27 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:The thread is titled "do we NEED Letang"? The Pens answered this question already this season by winning consistently without him.

Yes, I was another of those people who desperately did not want him to be re-signed but Shero's loyalty overwhelms his brain a lot of the time. Like I keep saying, he isn't the genius everyone thinks he is, he was the one who was lucky enough to be able to draft Crosby and Geno which made other players want to come here and play as well.

I like Ray for sure, but I'm done with the "he can do no wrong" garbage.

Crosby and Malkin were drafted before he came here. His first draft was a mistake when he took Jordan Staal over Toews and Kessel. Didn't like the pick from day one.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby sjnhiils on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:41 pm

Jim wrote:I believe that the problem with the team is attitude. We are once again sliding into the "country club" type feel. There are a few, maybe a handful, of players on the team that I believe believe that they can do no wrong and have no desire to change or improve. They feel that what they do is fine and everyone else just need to go with it. ... and management and ownership lets them. Until that changes you will just get flashes of brilliance but nothing long lasting.

Ken Hitchcock had a good quote in the paper today regarding Fred Shero. He said "As hard as it was,as much as he enjoyed the players,he really stayed away from them so he could make calculated decisions that were best for the team. He was one of the first coaches that really removed himself from the emotion of the game and just made sure everybody stayed in that circle." While this might be too extreme in the current NHL, there has to be an answer lying somewhere in the middle of this and what HCDB is doing.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Great58 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:06 pm

[quote="murphydump55"]IF Letang continues his play from the playoffs, like he is this year, then no, we don't need him.

With his current play, it seems he brings more bad than good. Sure he can make a nice first pass and skate really well. However he has absolute brain farts in the defensive zone, he turns pucks over, he gets his shots blocked in the offensive zone more often than not, and when it finally does get through, it misses the net. He's been this way since he first came into the league. I remember these boards salivating at how good he would be when he finally starts hitting the net.....when does that start happening?

He isn't much of an asset on the power play either. Sure every so often he'll make a nice play and everyone will point to it and call out all the Letang haters, but let's be realistic, his nice play every so often doesn't make up for the gaffs he so often makes or his invisible cloak he wears.

I'm fine with his defensive shortcomings if he brought an offensive game, but he doesn't. Sure he'll rush the puck, but 9 times out of 10, he'll gain the zone and take a weak wrist shot on net that the goaltender easily controls. Never does he drive the net, pull up and look for a pass, or even hold on to the puck in the zone. It's always the same weak shot from the boards. He's not a goalscorer, yet with his shot and hands you'd think he'd be able to pot a few more. There's no reason he can't score like Green, Buff, Karlsson, Weber, Markov, etc. His career high of 10 goals seems a little low for someone with his skills.

quote]
Ok, let's compare.
Letang 2013: 35 games played, 5 goals 33 assists 38 points. On ice for 44 ES goals for, 28 ES goals against. 2013 Playoffs 13 games, 3 goals, 13 assists 27:38 TOI
Green 2013: 35 games, 12 goals, 14 assists, 26 points. On ice for 24 ES goals for, 27 ESGA. 2013 Playoffs 7 games, 2 goals, 2 assists, 25:32 ATOI
Byfuglien 2013: 43 games, 8 goals, 20 assists 28 points. On ice for 44 ES goals for, 45 goals against. 2013 Playoffs... oh, wait.
Karlsson 2013: 17 games played, 6 goals 12 assists, 18 points. On ice for 17 ES goals, 9 ES goals against. 2013 Playoffs: 10 games 1 goal 7 assists ATOI: 26:44
Weber 2013: 48 games 9 goals 19 assists 28 points. On ice for 38 ESGF, 30 ESGA.

Where exactly is Letang failing in the offensive department relative to these players?
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Great58 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:25 pm

Oh yeah:
Markov 2013: 48 games played 10 goals 20 assists 30 points. On ice for 30 ES goals for, 39 ES goals against. 2013 Playoffs 5 games, 0 goals, 1 assist. ATOI: 23:54
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Factorial on Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:23 pm

Yes.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:53 pm

Great58 wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:IF Letang continues his play from the playoffs, like he is this year, then no, we don't need him.

With his current play, it seems he brings more bad than good. Sure he can make a nice first pass and skate really well. However he has absolute brain farts in the defensive zone, he turns pucks over, he gets his shots blocked in the offensive zone more often than not, and when it finally does get through, it misses the net. He's been this way since he first came into the league. I remember these boards salivating at how good he would be when he finally starts hitting the net.....when does that start happening?

He isn't much of an asset on the power play either. Sure every so often he'll make a nice play and everyone will point to it and call out all the Letang haters, but let's be realistic, his nice play every so often doesn't make up for the gaffs he so often makes or his invisible cloak he wears.

I'm fine with his defensive shortcomings if he brought an offensive game, but he doesn't. Sure he'll rush the puck, but 9 times out of 10, he'll gain the zone and take a weak wrist shot on net that the goaltender easily controls. Never does he drive the net, pull up and look for a pass, or even hold on to the puck in the zone. It's always the same weak shot from the boards. He's not a goalscorer, yet with his shot and hands you'd think he'd be able to pot a few more. There's no reason he can't score like Green, Buff, Karlsson, Weber, Markov, etc. His career high of 10 goals seems a little low for someone with his skills.

quote]
Ok, let's compare.
Letang 2013: 35 games played, 5 goals 33 assists 38 points. On ice for 44 ES goals for, 28 ES goals against. 2013 Playoffs 13 games, 3 goals, 13 assists 27:38 TOI
Green 2013: 35 games, 12 goals, 14 assists, 26 points. On ice for 24 ES goals for, 27 ESGA. 2013 Playoffs 7 games, 2 goals, 2 assists, 25:32 ATOI
Byfuglien 2013: 43 games, 8 goals, 20 assists 28 points. On ice for 44 ES goals for, 45 goals against. 2013 Playoffs... oh, wait.
Karlsson 2013: 17 games played, 6 goals 12 assists, 18 points. On ice for 17 ES goals, 9 ES goals against. 2013 Playoffs: 10 games 1 goal 7 assists ATOI: 26:44
Weber 2013: 48 games 9 goals 19 assists 28 points. On ice for 38 ESGF, 30 ESGA.

Where exactly is Letang failing in the offensive department relative to these players?


Oh, sorry, I forgot that half of a season means everything.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:55 pm

I think his offensive numbers prior to last season stand for themselves as well.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Great58 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:01 pm

murphydump55 wrote:Oh, sorry, I forgot that half of a season means everything.

Ok, why don't you post the comparison numbers for 2012 then for us to discuss?
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby no name on Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:11 pm

I think now you are in a much harder spot to trade Letang. OK say we can trade him but we are pressed against the cap right now. You trade Letang you are going to want a big name D back in his place?? Who are you looking to get. PK Subban, Karelson, some other D man that is in the same mold of Letang. If you could find me another young defensive stud ok maybe I would go for that. Then you are hurting on the power play.

befor the season started when you had no one signed and 14 cap space to play with you could do this. Trade him and have a ton of places to move him and re do your roster to your liking.

Now if you trade him its pretty much, getting another D man back to fill the hole when he is gone.

I am not a big fan Letang but I think our options are limited in moving him.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:49 pm

Great58 wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:Oh, sorry, I forgot that half of a season means everything.

Ok, why don't you post the comparison numbers for 2012 then for us to discuss?


My point was that you would think he'd be more of a goal scorer with his hands and shot. That's when I compared him to the aforementioned players.

Therefore:

There were 29 defensemen ahead of him last year in goals. (granted he did miss some time, but was basically on pace for his career high of 10 goals over a full season)

The previous year he had 10 goals, the leading Dman had 19, and there were 13 ahead of him in goals.

2010-11 he had 8 goals and the leader had 20. There were 26 dmen ahead of him in goals.

I simply said there's no reason that he can't score like these other defensemen. He has a great shot, an accurate shot it seems at times, a hard snap shot....but yet he can't hit the net from the point, he can't one time the puck, etc.

Yes he does get a lot of assists, but as I said, once 87 and 71 are out, he goes AWOL, he doesn't create like many think. He started that one season on fire and as soon as Sid and Geno went out, his points just stopped, literally. It's understandable that they would drop off a bit, but not to the extent that they did.

My point is that he's going to be making 7 million dollars, and is a liability defensively.....if he's going to be that way and make that much money, then at least break the 10 goal mark like many other defensemen do. If he played great defense and score 8-10 goals, I'd accept it. But if you're going to be horrible in your own end and turn the puck over like crazy with horrible decisions, then at least figure it out somewhere else on the ice.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Great58 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:01 pm

How terrible is he really doing?
Letang has averaged 0.54 ppg over his career, with 47 goals in 393 games. Even Strength he is 349 GF, 307 GA. Playoffs 47 points in 80 games played (13 goals).
Karlsson 0.72 ppg, 49 goals in 250 games. 198 GF, 209 GA at ES. 15 points (3 goals) in 23 career playoff games.
Green 0.64 ppg, 94 goals in 451 games. On ice of 386 goals for, 327 goals against at ES. 33 points in 59 playoff games, 9 goals.
Weber 0.55 ppg, 112 goals in 451 games, on ice for 386 ES goals for, 327 goals against. 20 points (10 goals) in 43 playoff games.
Byfuglien * 0.54 ppg, 96 goals in 469 games, on ice for 311 ES goals for, 337 goals against. 25 points in 39 games (14 goals)
*Split time between D/F

Letang's cap hit NEXT year isn't too far off of these guy's current cap hits. So while you can say you'd like to see him put more pucks in the back of the net, his defensive liability above his offensive talent is not readily apparent. With his ES GF/GA of 1.13 is just slightly behind Green and Weber's of 1.18, and better than Karlsson's 0.95 and Byfuglien's (inflated) 0.92.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby no name on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:06 pm

If you had to trade Letang for one other player who would you want?
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:22 pm

Drew doughty is the first one that comes to mind. I could think of others.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Rylan on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:25 pm

OEL please.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:27 pm

He would be near the top of the list as well.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:12 pm

I'd say Ryan Suter as well. You get decent production, minute-eating, and good defensive play.

I'd also love to see how many times Steigerwald gets Sutter and Suter mixed up.
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Re: Do We Need Letang?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:20 pm

Another good choice. And keith. Keith/martin would be pretty amazing.
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