The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby sil on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:48 am

burghsportsguys wrote:The Pens will easily replace Orpik with Bortuzzo next season.


I highly doubt Bortuzzo will see top-4 minutes next season...if that's the case...we won't be in good shape.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby burghsportsguys on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:02 am

sil wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:The Pens will easily replace Orpik with Bortuzzo next season.


I highly doubt Bortuzzo will see top-4 minutes next season...if that's the case...we won't be in good shape.


I don't think he will play top 4 minutes. But Orpik isn't playing at a "top 4" level right now, either, and certainly won't be next year. A lot of what I see if Bortuzzo is what made me like Orpik years ago. He plays with an edge, he punishes the other team in the crease, etc. I don't think Orpik plays with the same fire that he used to, but maybe I'm alone in that thinking.

Other than "experience" and "leadership" I really struggle to see what Orpik brings to the table that Bortuzzo doesn't - and I haven't seen any measurable benefits from those two nebulous traits.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby Pitts on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:14 am

burghsportsguys wrote:Other than "experience" and "leadership" I really struggle to see what Orpik brings to the table that Bortuzzo doesn't - and I haven't seen any measurable benefits from those two nebulous traits.

But you do not have access to the locker room, bench or any other player areas to make that assessment.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby pcm on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:26 am

Pitts wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:Other than "experience" and "leadership" I really struggle to see what Orpik brings to the table that Bortuzzo doesn't - and I haven't seen any measurable benefits from those two nebulous traits.

But you do not have access to the locker room, bench or any other player areas to make that assessment.


What he's saying is that outside of those "lockerroom" intangibles, based entirley on what every person can see from his on-ice play, he doesn't see any measurable advantage to Orpik over Bortuzzo.

I'm not saying I agree with the judgement itself, but judging players based on results is much more valid than judging them based on rumor and Rossi.

This "you don't have access to the lockerroom" response is tired and specious.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby burghsportsguys on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:31 am

Pitts wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:Other than "experience" and "leadership" I really struggle to see what Orpik brings to the table that Bortuzzo doesn't - and I haven't seen any measurable benefits from those two nebulous traits.

But you do not have access to the locker room, bench or any other player areas to make that assessment.


100% true.

I can't say whether it's a positive or a negative, since I don't have that access. Similarly, the same can be said about Adams, Engelland, and others. No one can really see the intrinsic value of dressing these players, we can only see what happens on the ice on a nightly basis. We have to consider the potentially devastating impact on the locker room of losing a guy like Orpik and his intangibles. It could certainly send the team into a tailspin unlike the franchise has ever experienced. As you said, we just don't know.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:34 am

columbia wrote:
"In an ideal world, Shero would trade Orpik in the coming weeks and capture a significant return before losing him for nothing over the summer."


There are some players that you don't trade away. It's part of honoring the time they have put in, with and for the organization.

A quick look at the cap tells you that he won't be around next year: that's his exit point.


This... plus, I don't think a contender trades a veteran defenseman in-season. He's not the 44 that lit up DET in 2009 but in the event he is needed, he's a superior 7th man.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby zeke5123 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:36 am

Pitt87 wrote:
columbia wrote:
"In an ideal world, Shero would trade Orpik in the coming weeks and capture a significant return before losing him for nothing over the summer."


There are some players that you don't trade away. It's part of honoring the time they have put in, with and for the organization.

A quick look at the cap tells you that he won't be around next year: that's his exit point.


This... plus, I don't think a contender trades a veteran defenseman in-season. He's not the 44 that lit up DET in 2009 but in the event he is needed, he's a superior 7th man.


Well, it depends upon what we can get. If we were able to get a solid winger for Sid, then of course make the trade. You are upgrading the team.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:54 am

zeke5123 wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
columbia wrote:
"In an ideal world, Shero would trade Orpik in the coming weeks and capture a significant return before losing him for nothing over the summer."


There are some players that you don't trade away. It's part of honoring the time they have put in, with and for the organization.

A quick look at the cap tells you that he won't be around next year: that's his exit point.


This... plus, I don't think a contender trades a veteran defenseman in-season. He's not the 44 that lit up DET in 2009 but in the event he is needed, he's a superior 7th man.


Well, it depends upon what we can get. If we were able to get a solid winger for Sid, then of course make the trade. You are upgrading the team.


No chance a hockey trade gets made with an aging defender in which the Pens come out on top, and he will not be moved just to free up a spot or eliminate some cap. In other words, a contender does not trade a veteran defenseman in-season... :pop:
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby Jim on Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:33 pm

Pens Cup years: 1991 traded Zalapski, won the Cup. 1992 traded Coffey, won the Cup. 2009 traded Whitney, won the Cup.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby pcm on Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:55 pm

Orpik for Palmieri :pop:
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby burghsportsguys on Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:08 pm

Jim wrote:Pens Cup years: 1991 traded Zalapski, won the Cup. 1992 traded Coffey, won the Cup. 2009 traded Whitney, won the Cup.


Not true, I read on the internet that contending teams do not trade defensemen. Your facts are no match for statements made on the interwebs.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby penny lane on Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:32 pm

so :
letang-martin
scuderi-niskanen
maatta-bortuzzo
For the cup?

Even Ray won't be trading NHL D caliber for NHL D caliber in return.
I'm looking forward to seeing Brooks play in the Olympics.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby KG on Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:38 pm

sil wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:The Pens will easily replace Orpik with Bortuzzo next season.


I highly doubt Bortuzzo will see top-4 minutes next season...if that's the case...we won't be in good shape.


Agreed. I think people want very much to believe that Bort could be a young Orpik, because he is physical. I don't see it. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bort traded at the deadline, or if he is here next year it will be bottom pairing minutes...
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby pcm on Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:56 pm

The thinking is that Brooks looks slow and overmatched out there as a top 4 guy. He's a great bottom pair veteran guy at this point. If he were to re-sign here, that'd be his role.

But Bortuzzo can fill a similar role (not veteran) as a hard-to-play-against bottom pairing defender, for $3m less.
Bortuzzo wouldn't be replacing Orpik's role as a top defenceman on this team. Maatta and Niskanen have already done that.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby pcm on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:00 pm

penny lane wrote:so :
letang-martin
scuderi-niskanen
maatta-bortuzzo
For the cup?


I'd go with:

Martin-Letang
Maatta-Niskanen
Scuderi-Bortuzzo

Which is still better than the Pen's cup winning D:

Gonchar-Orpik
Scuderi-Gill
Eaton-Letang
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby KG on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:01 pm

Shero should decide on if he wants to re-sign Orpik before the deadline. I haven't heard/seen any rumblings that he is talking to Orpik's agent?

This could be similar to San Jose last year and Douglas Murray. They were a playoff team but knew they weren't going to re-sign Crankshaft, so they dealt him for 2 picks. I'm sure if Shero threw Orpiks name out there during the deadline that he would net a lot more then 2 picks...

I don't think this happens at all, as Shero and DB look at Orpik as a glue guy. Some agree, some don't...
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby Penspal on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:12 pm

sil wrote:It makes more sense if you pause and remember the true fact that regular season hockey =/= playoff hockey.


Exactly. I had that in my earlier post, but for reasons of brevity, I removed it. Come playoffs, the rules change, and I believe Orpik can clutch and grab with the best of them. Plus, he is fearless which is huge come playoff time.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby Pitts on Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:57 pm

pcm wrote:
Pitts wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:Other than "experience" and "leadership" I really struggle to see what Orpik brings to the table that Bortuzzo doesn't - and I haven't seen any measurable benefits from those two nebulous traits.

But you do not have access to the locker room, bench or any other player areas to make that assessment.


What he's saying is that outside of those "lockerroom" intangibles, based entirley on what every person can see from his on-ice play, he doesn't see any measurable advantage to Orpik over Bortuzzo.

I'm not saying I agree with the judgement itself, but judging players based on results is much more valid than judging them based on rumor and Rossi.

This "you don't have access to the lockerroom" response is tired and specious.

No, he said "I haven't seen any measurable benefits from those two nebulous traits."
There are no results to be judged there. And we do not know what Orpik may or may not do for the team when cameras aren't on him.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby burghsportsguys on Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:50 pm

Pitts wrote:
pcm wrote:
Pitts wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:Other than "experience" and "leadership" I really struggle to see what Orpik brings to the table that Bortuzzo doesn't - and I haven't seen any measurable benefits from those two nebulous traits.

But you do not have access to the locker room, bench or any other player areas to make that assessment.


What he's saying is that outside of those "lockerroom" intangibles, based entirley on what every person can see from his on-ice play, he doesn't see any measurable advantage to Orpik over Bortuzzo.

I'm not saying I agree with the judgement itself, but judging players based on results is much more valid than judging them based on rumor and Rossi.

This "you don't have access to the lockerroom" response is tired and specious.

No, he said "I haven't seen any measurable benefits from those two nebulous traits."
There are no results to be judged there. And we do not know what Orpik may or may not do for the team when cameras aren't on him.

He nailed exactly what I was saying. On-ice, Orpik has no measurable benefit over Bortuzzo. The locker room stuff/intangibles/leadership seems very nebulous. For many that support Orpik, those intangibles are the go-to reason why we need him, despite the fact that on-ice results wouldn't necessarily indicate that.

In any case, I don't expect Orpik to be traded, nor do I expect him to be supplanted this season. Based on what I see with my lying eyes, I think Bortuzzo will easily fill the void left by Orpik if he is not here next season. In fact, I personally think it will be a step up once Bortuzzo gets more experience playing every night. If Orpik got hurt right now, I would have no concern that Bortuzzo could fill in admirably from here on out.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby slipshod on Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:17 pm

Borts > Orpik in the offensive zone.

I think they ride with Orpik this year but will not re-sign him. His time is past as a top 4 and there are just too many good D-men waiting in the wings but he gets his last shot at another cup with the Pens this year. I'm good with that. He's earned it.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:10 pm

burghsportsguys wrote:
Jim wrote:Pens Cup years: 1991 traded Zalapski, won the Cup. 1992 traded Coffey, won the Cup. 2009 traded Whitney, won the Cup.


Not true, I read on the internet that contending teams do not trade defensemen. Your facts are no match for statements made on the interwebs.


That's a bit revisionist... In 92, the Pens were on the brink of not making the playoffs when they moved Coffey. In 91, they traded Zalapski -- who was 22 at the time -- and two others for Ron Francis, who is in the HOF, and Ulf. Hardly a 'get rid of him' situation. And Ryan Whitney was 26 when he was traded in 2009... and terrible.

But, like you said, Trade Orpik and we win the cup I guess. /Interwebz...
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:59 am

Orpik is still okay as a bottom pair guy, or even a #4, but to give him the top pairing at this point is not in the best interest of anyone. Scuderi may be 35 but he is an incredible positional defenseman. Last night against Buffalo, he disrupted a pass and the proceeded to make two poke checks before passing the puck to a teammate who cleared the puck down the ice, on one sequence during a Sabres power play. Orpik will have to become more positionally sound as he ages, in order to remain in someone's top 4.

Depending on how much Orpik plays in Sochi, he may need the occasional rest, too, down the stretch. Even if he tells Bylsma he wants to play every night, he should not play back to backs. Give Borts or Despres the experience. The only thing worse than a declining player in the postseason is a tired declining player. Bylsma has done a great job of covering for Orpik's weaknesses the past few seasons. Now he'll need to manage his minutes effectively going forward. With an insane amount of depth on D it would be foolish to play any of the veterans even if they are slightly fatigued, beat up, or injured. Especially with a ridiculous division lead.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby columbia on Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:08 am

RxBandit66 wrote:With an insane amount of depth on D it would be foolish to play any of the veterans even if they are slightly fatigued, beat up, or injured. Especially with a ridiculous division lead.


Independent of Orpik, this never seems to happen in hockey.
It's not like it bothers me or anything, but it's always seemed that players/teams could benefit from resting everyone over the course of season.
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby headh on Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:40 am

I always viewed his inclusion in the "top pair" as a roster concession necessary to a team with our plethora of offensive talent. Now it seems that Bylsma actually considers this guy to be "world class". Consider me "stunned".

I don't believe that he'd be in the top pairing of any realistic contender for the Stanley Cup for this or any of the past few seasons. I think that Orpik and Scuderi would be our bottom pair except to play them together would be equal to conceding goals. Scuderi is already getting limited minutes.

They should trade Orpik now while he still has some value. That would leave us with pairings that actually utilize our most talented players.


Maatta & Niskanen
Letang & Martin
Scuderi/Bortuzzo/Despres



To me it's a borderline decision to play Orpik and Scuderi instead of Despres and or Bortuzzo
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Re: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik (Mike Colligan)

Postby burghsportsguys on Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:19 am

Pitt87 wrote:
burghsportsguys wrote:
Jim wrote:Pens Cup years: 1991 traded Zalapski, won the Cup. 1992 traded Coffey, won the Cup. 2009 traded Whitney, won the Cup.


Not true, I read on the internet that contending teams do not trade defensemen. Your facts are no match for statements made on the interwebs.


That's a bit revisionist... In 92, the Pens were on the brink of not making the playoffs when they moved Coffey. In 91, they traded Zalapski -- who was 22 at the time -- and two others for Ron Francis, who is in the HOF, and Ulf. Hardly a 'get rid of him' situation. And Ryan Whitney was 26 when he was traded in 2009... and terrible.


You said "a contender does not trade a veteran defenseman in-season" - that's an exact quote.

In 1991, Zalapski was in his 3rd full season and an up-and-coming star (he had 48 points in 66 games when he was dealt).
In 1992, the Pens were in a rough patch and looking to shake things up, but they were absolutely a contender - you may remember that they won their last 11 games in the playoffs that year.
In 2009, I knew Whitney was terrible, but many loved him and considered him an immovable part of the "core", which was laughable.

Here's the FACT. Three times the Pens were contending, and three times they moved a veteran defenseman. Who they got in return is irrelevant. For all we know, they will deal a vet d-man for another d-man at this deadline (like the Coffey deal that brought Kjell or the ZZ deal that brought Ulf). The FACT is that contending teams do make in-season deals involving verteran defensemen. It cannot be argued.

Pitt87 wrote:But, like you said, Trade Orpik and we win the cup I guess. /Interwebz...

This is when you know you've lost it... strawman city, baby.

I NEVER said that. Just nut up to the fact that you are wrong, there's no need to invent arguments I made and argue against strawmen. It's ok to be wrong, and it ok to admit it. It's very likely they won't deal Orpik. If they do, it likely won't be a big deal.
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