Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Luckybreak on Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:48 am

shmenguin wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:I'd rather see him doing this because - well, what else does Adams bring 5 on 5? And we all know he's gonna play.


i hate seeing anyone on our team do that. adams should be embarrassed.


C'mon Shmenguin you know this happens every game, even from some of the best in the world (gasp!), and if Sens are gonna play the 'get in the way' game I see this as fair response.

Was Geno's head butt of the boards as morally outrageous? I'd rather see Adams do this than Cooke throw his elbow, in the grand scheme it wasn't the worst!


embellishments happen every game. dives don't. and they don't happen with respectable players.


I saw the dive as an embellishment on the clutch-grab-obstruct-impede-a-thon that was going on. Adams is a respectable player, also a smart guy who despite limited skill retains a place on the roster. In an ideal world he gets called for diving, but the Sens also get called for interference multiple times. Sadly the refs didn't seem to be living in that world but I'm not pinning that on poor old Adams!
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby meow on Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:34 pm

I can see that being called a dive if there were refs on the ice last night. Since there were not, that's why there was no call. Prison ball - call your own fouls.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pcmforless on Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:27 pm

And for that question that always seems to pop up "when is the last time one of our goalies stole us a game".
Answer- Last night, although Anderson was trying his hardest to steal one for the Sens
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jesse on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:00 pm

I love Robert Bortuzzo's attitude. I really do. He's a real life troll on the ice. He seems to lavish in taking attention away from our superstars and onto himself in a way I've not seen from a defenseman on this team in quite some time.

But the guy can be just brutal in front of his own net. He flounders at times. If he could just stop wandering around and plant himself in the crease, he'd be an every night type of player. That's the one thing that has just haunted him this year.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jesse on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:01 pm

pcmforless wrote:And for that question that always seems to pop up "when is the last time one of our goalies stole us a game".
Answer- Last night, although Anderson was trying his hardest to steal one for the Sens


Fleury axe-grinders will never admit to something so obvious.

Their response will be something in regards to him not stealing anything and the fact that it's only February.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pcm on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:09 pm

Now that's some defense!

Image
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby The Snapshot on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:27 pm

Jesse wrote:
pcmforless wrote:And for that question that always seems to pop up "when is the last time one of our goalies stole us a game".
Answer- Last night, although Anderson was trying his hardest to steal one for the Sens


Fleury axe-grinders will never admit to something so obvious.

Their response will be something in regards to him not stealing anything and the fact that it's only February.


I don't think a goalie "steals" a game when his team outshoots the other by a 2-1 margin, although I can see how you think one save stole the game. The fact is, Anderson almost stole the game.

I'm not shorting Fleury for what he did last night, which was to help win a game his team deserved to win. That is not the same as winning one they didn't, and he rarely does that. That save last night is exactly why if he was consistent on the easy saves and added one or two of those in he would be warming up for the HOF. In his defense, the Pens normally carry play and puck possession, but it isn't often the shoe is on the other foot and we win.

He has been great this year. How can you honestly take someone to task over stating the obvious that he has always been a great regular season goalie?
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby meow on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:33 pm

And it begins.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:36 pm

That save may not win save of the year, but im willing to bet that among all candidates, its the most impressive one. That was certainly the difference between ot and losing...the pens carried play though, im not sure i would say that game was stolen. Fleury was the second best goalie last night.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Dr Rosenrosen on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:56 pm

- If HCDB told #2 to pick up the slack in #58's absence, I think he took it entirely the wrong way
- Neal said he would shoot more and he did - to his detriment - until the great patience he showed on the GWG.
- Speed alone is not enough for Gibbons to be effective on Sid's line. He needs to finish better or help more in the possession game. I'm not sure he can do either.
- Engelland got manhandled a couple times in the corner. Strange to see.
- I believe Sid took one in the nuts on the play where he looked hurt.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby The Snapshot on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:57 pm

meow wrote:And it begins.


Nothing has begun.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby RxBandit66 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:23 pm

-Great team win, Pens unfazed by the ol Boston blueprint.
-Fleury looked like the Fleury of 2008 and 2009
-Paul Martin looked the Paul Martin of last season, which is a good thing.
-At the rate Maatta is progressing, I'm not going to make predictions, but wow at the possibilities.
-Hopefully Pyatt, Vitale, Conner, and BB are all back after the Olympics.
-Kobasew was decent, but Megna's speed could have helped against a big, lumbering Sens defense.
-Engo has been strong of late; why did he only play 6 mins especially with a forward down already?
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby tfrizz on Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:23 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
Jesse wrote:
pcmforless wrote:And for that question that always seems to pop up "when is the last time one of our goalies stole us a game".
Answer- Last night, although Anderson was trying his hardest to steal one for the Sens


Fleury axe-grinders will never admit to something so obvious.

Their response will be something in regards to him not stealing anything and the fact that it's only February.


I don't think a goalie "steals" a game when his team outshoots the other by a 2-1 margin, although I can see how you think one save stole the game. The fact is, Anderson almost stole the game.

I'm not shorting Fleury for what he did last night, which was to help win a game his team deserved to win. That is not the same as winning one they didn't, and he rarely does that. That save last night is exactly why if he was consistent on the easy saves and added one or two of those in he would be warming up for the HOF. In his defense, the Pens normally carry play and puck possession, but it isn't often the shoe is on the other foot and we win.

He has been great this year. How can you honestly take someone to task over stating the obvious that he has always been a great regular season goalie?


If Ottawa walked away with the win, that would've been a goalie stealing a game. Fleury didn't "steal the game", per se, but he definitely bailed the team out.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jesse on Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:47 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
Jesse wrote:
pcmforless wrote:And for that question that always seems to pop up "when is the last time one of our goalies stole us a game".
Answer- Last night, although Anderson was trying his hardest to steal one for the Sens


Fleury axe-grinders will never admit to something so obvious.

Their response will be something in regards to him not stealing anything and the fact that it's only February.


I don't think a goalie "steals" a game when his team outshoots the other by a 2-1 margin, although I can see how you think one save stole the game. The fact is, Anderson almost stole the game.

I'm not shorting Fleury for what he did last night, which was to help win a game his team deserved to win. That is not the same as winning one they didn't, and he rarely does that. That save last night is exactly why if he was consistent on the easy saves and added one or two of those in he would be warming up for the HOF. In his defense, the Pens normally carry play and puck possession, but it isn't often the shoe is on the other foot and we win.

He has been great this year. How can you honestly take someone to task over stating the obvious that he has always been a great regular season goalie?


I'm not very concerned with how many games a goaltender steals for this specific franchise. That might be important if you're in Minnesota or New Jersey, any team with an offense that's perpetually mired in a funk that needs goalies to allow 2GA or less every night to have any serious chance of winning the hockey game.

I'm concerned with, specific to Fleury, him giving the Penguins an opportunity to win a hockey game. That's happened 30 times this year out of 45 attempts. Good enough for first in the NHL. Wins is an abrasive statistic for goaltenders, but it's an important one for me because not every team in the NHL is the same. I'm selfish in understanding what's perfect for the Penguins as a whole.

Fleury's statistics this year, albeit his career best, are the league average. On point. If that's good enough for the Penguins, it's good enough for me.

And certainly, he's always been a great regular season goaltender. I am not going to wipe the Stanley Cup he won off of his record because of what's happened in recent years.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pcm on Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:54 pm

I'm concerned with, specific to Fleury, him giving the Penguins an opportunity to win a hockey game. That's happened 30 times this year out of 45 attempts.


At the very least. I'm sure there were L's where he was good enough, but the team in front of him wasn't.

Fleury getting the blame for the team's playoff failures continues to be the biggest myth surrounding this organization.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby sil on Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:13 pm

The playoff loss to the Flyers, which probably stung people the most, is the one that rests more on Fleury than anything because he really didn't give them a chance in that series...though the funny thing is that just a few goals (amongst so so many) the other way and Bryz almost didn't give the Flyers a chance to win.

You really can't look at the Habs or Bolts series and say he didn't at least give them a chance with his play...though I'm sure people will find a way to blame him alone (see below.)
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby The Snapshot on Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:43 pm

OK, since we want to start waving the Flower power flag in an I told you so vibe, I'll bite.

The facts are that the recent playoff failures were most especially resultant from Fleury's propensity to give up soft goal after soft goal in playoff games - and any soft goal in a playoff game is difficult to recover from. These goals, regardless of the defensive structure or lack thereof in front of him, were by all accounts stoppable shots. If a shot comes from a certain place on the ice, only a bad goal can result if it goes in. Many of these goals would not even be characterized as legitimate scoring chances. Alas, these goals were not the type of goals the Pens were getting against the opposing goaltender in most of these series.

Why is it so important to simply ignore this simple fact in support of Fleury? Why not just say we hope he is mentally stronger and able to do what he did last night in the playoffs? He clearly has a TON to prove.

It is noteworthy that many of the games we lost in the recent playoff failures were VERY similar to last nights, where the opposing goalie stood on his head and we had a goalie not only NOT make that big glove save, but also allowing one or two more to leak in. Montreal and Tampa were eliminations where we consistently carried the play. The Islanders series was headed down that same toilet except that Bylsma finally decided he had seen that movie before. Losing to Boston, while a sweep was tough to accept, was at least to an arguably superior team who's goalie played lights out.

That is pretty much irrefutable if you watch the tapes back - yet we are supposed to just pretend he's always been good in the playoffs when in reality he has NEVER been consistent night in night out even in the two Cup runs? I still can see from my seats at that end the puck standing on end behind him on a bad angle shot in Game 6 of the '08 Finals at the Igloo. He put that one in with his a** after letting a harmless shot roll up his arm and down his back. That goal was largely the swing point in Game 6 that allowed the Wings to carry the Cup around the Igloo. To get there though in that season in earlier rounds, he showed an ability to bounce back right away from bad outings. He had gained a reputation for immediately playing some of his best games the next try. THAT is all we need perhaps, but instead we see a guy completely fall apart, and people want to find any reason other than that he was a house of cards mentally?

I want SOMEONE to give us solid goaltending night after night in the Playoffs. I think this team, with a few key additions here and there, can win with that. I don't care who it comes from. Vokoun, Zatkoff, Fleury, Hartzell, Jarry......whoever.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Lt. Dish on Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:59 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
meow wrote:And it begins.


Nothing has begun.


We have. Only, and just now.

Last edited by Lt. Dish on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby The Snapshot on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:00 pm

Lt. Dish wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
meow wrote:And it begins.


Nothing has begun.


We have. Only, and just now.


THEY started it. :pop:
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Lt. Dish on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:10 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
Lt. Dish wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
meow wrote:And it begins.


Nothing has begun.


We have. Only, and just now.


THEY started it. :pop:


Sing with me, Snap! (see above) :fist:

I think of Fleury's rebound in games 6 and 7 in the '09 Finals after that nuclear meltdown in game 5. Seems like ancient history, but he needs to remember that he has that in him. Mike Bales has taken to reminding him.

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/513 ... z2sPgjURrU

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/peng ... 1309160162

We'll believe it when we see it, but I'm feeling a different vibe this year. Means zero, and there's no hockey basis for it, and it's only February, but...I can't explain it.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby The Snapshot on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:23 pm

Lt. Dish wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
Lt. Dish wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
meow wrote:And it begins.


Nothing has begun.


We have. Only, and just now.


THEY started it. :pop:


Sing with me, Snap! (see above) :fist:

I think of Fleury's rebound in games 6 and 7 in the '09 Finals after that nuclear meltdown in game 5. Seems like ancient history, but he needs to remember that he has that in him. Mike Bales has taken to reminding him.

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/513 ... z2sPgjURrU

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/peng ... 1309160162

We'll believe it when we see it, but I'm feeling a different vibe this year. Means zero, and there's no hockey basis for it, and it's only February, but...I can't explain it.


I want to sing along. Believe me I do. :thumb:

Just don't see why it is all or nothing like Fleury can never be good because he failed over and over. He can be.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Lt. Dish on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:31 pm

I think he can be great this year. I do.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby DropEmJayBird on Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:00 am

Ironically, when I see defenses literally crap themselves over and over in front of so-called "shutdown" goalies, I suddenly see them let in a lot of pucks. On top of that, I see teams go on stretches (with full lineups) where they lose like 7 of 10 or so.

I think with Fleury, even in his shortcomings, we have a lot more stability in the net than we think we do, when compared to other teams. He's having a career year in terms of numbers so far for him, and I hope that's due to improvements made by the new goalie coach. But it's pretty amazing given the number of injuries this team has suffered.

Hopefully that translates into the playoffs, but I think that will have a lot more to do with how the team in general handles the playoffs. Will they start running around like chickens with their heads cut off like they did against Philly and the Isles, turning the puck over constantly and breaking down in terms of their defensive zone coverage, or will they simply fail to score goals (Montreal, Boston) while trying to hammer the square peg into the round hole.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pcm on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:13 am

The Snapshot wrote:OK, since we want to start waving the Flower power flag in an I told you so vibe, I'll bite.

The facts are that the recent playoff failures were most especially resultant from Fleury's propensity to give up soft goal after soft goal in playoff games - and any soft goal in a playoff game is difficult to recover from. These goals, regardless of the defensive structure or lack thereof in front of him, were by all accounts stoppable shots. If a shot comes from a certain place on the ice, only a bad goal can result if it goes in. Many of these goals would not even be characterized as legitimate scoring chances. Alas, these goals were not the type of goals the Pens were getting against the opposing goaltender in most of these series.

Why is it so important to simply ignore this simple fact in support of Fleury? Why not just say we hope he is mentally stronger and able to do what he did last night in the playoffs? He clearly has a TON to prove.

It is noteworthy that many of the games we lost in the recent playoff failures were VERY similar to last nights, where the opposing goalie stood on his head and we had a goalie not only NOT make that big glove save, but also allowing one or two more to leak in. Montreal and Tampa were eliminations where we consistently carried the play. The Islanders series was headed down that same toilet except that Bylsma finally decided he had seen that movie before. Losing to Boston, while a sweep was tough to accept, was at least to an arguably superior team who's goalie played lights out.

That is pretty much irrefutable if you watch the tapes back - yet we are supposed to just pretend he's always been good in the playoffs when in reality he has NEVER been consistent night in night out even in the two Cup runs? I still can see from my seats at that end the puck standing on end behind him on a bad angle shot in Game 6 of the '08 Finals at the Igloo. He put that one in with his a** after letting a harmless shot roll up his arm and down his back. That goal was largely the swing point in Game 6 that allowed the Wings to carry the Cup around the Igloo. To get there though in that season in earlier rounds, he showed an ability to bounce back right away from bad outings. He had gained a reputation for immediately playing some of his best games the next try. THAT is all we need perhaps, but instead we see a guy completely fall apart, and people want to find any reason other than that he was a house of cards mentally?

I want SOMEONE to give us solid goaltending night after night in the Playoffs. I think this team, with a few key additions here and there, can win with that. I don't care who it comes from. Vokoun, Zatkoff, Fleury, Hartzell, Jarry......whoever.


To test a hypothesis, you have to have a control. The Boston series was that control. Remove Fleury from the equation = same results. Our team leaders hit the whine button midway through game 1 and the team went on full tilt. They got solid goaltending... and still were decimated. While Boston may have been the better team, they were not THAT much better.

IMO Fleury's leaky goals are a symptom of the problem. Not the problem itself, which falls more under the categories of team leadership and accountability. No doubt, Fleury is a team leader and needs to be accountable for his subpar play, which has only exacerbateed the underlying problem. But blaming him for those loses is like blaming your hangover for making you feel like crap.

Fortunately, I see progress this year. The team has shown some gutsy wins. Fleury is back on the wagon. J. Martin has brought in some new ideas. There are young guys making an impact. But this team lives and dies by how 87 & 71 lead the way. 29, 58, 14, 18 all tend to follow suit.
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Re: Game 56 vs Ott - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens_CT on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:57 am

pcm wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:OK, since we want to start waving the Flower power flag in an I told you so vibe, I'll bite.

The facts are that the recent playoff failures were most especially resultant from Fleury's propensity to give up soft goal after soft goal in playoff games - and any soft goal in a playoff game is difficult to recover from. These goals, regardless of the defensive structure or lack thereof in front of him, were by all accounts stoppable shots. If a shot comes from a certain place on the ice, only a bad goal can result if it goes in. Many of these goals would not even be characterized as legitimate scoring chances. Alas, these goals were not the type of goals the Pens were getting against the opposing goaltender in most of these series.

Why is it so important to simply ignore this simple fact in support of Fleury? Why not just say we hope he is mentally stronger and able to do what he did last night in the playoffs? He clearly has a TON to prove.

It is noteworthy that many of the games we lost in the recent playoff failures were VERY similar to last nights, where the opposing goalie stood on his head and we had a goalie not only NOT make that big glove save, but also allowing one or two more to leak in. Montreal and Tampa were eliminations where we consistently carried the play. The Islanders series was headed down that same toilet except that Bylsma finally decided he had seen that movie before. Losing to Boston, while a sweep was tough to accept, was at least to an arguably superior team who's goalie played lights out.

That is pretty much irrefutable if you watch the tapes back - yet we are supposed to just pretend he's always been good in the playoffs when in reality he has NEVER been consistent night in night out even in the two Cup runs? I still can see from my seats at that end the puck standing on end behind him on a bad angle shot in Game 6 of the '08 Finals at the Igloo. He put that one in with his a** after letting a harmless shot roll up his arm and down his back. That goal was largely the swing point in Game 6 that allowed the Wings to carry the Cup around the Igloo. To get there though in that season in earlier rounds, he showed an ability to bounce back right away from bad outings. He had gained a reputation for immediately playing some of his best games the next try. THAT is all we need perhaps, but instead we see a guy completely fall apart, and people want to find any reason other than that he was a house of cards mentally?

I want SOMEONE to give us solid goaltending night after night in the Playoffs. I think this team, with a few key additions here and there, can win with that. I don't care who it comes from. Vokoun, Zatkoff, Fleury, Hartzell, Jarry......whoever.



Fortunately, I see progress this year. The team has shown some gutsy wins. Fleury is back on the wagon. J. Martin has brought in some new ideas. There are young guys making an impact. But this team lives and dies by how 87 & 71 lead the way. 29, 58, 14, 18 all tend to follow suit.


This team needs more than 87 and 71 to win the cup. During the last SCF against Detroit they needed performances from unlikely sources like Kennedy, Staal and Talbot to win when 87 and 71 were held in check. I'm not sure I see that secondary scoring on this team at this point. Its time for GMRS to earn his paycheck and make the necessary additions.
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