The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey Team

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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby mikey287 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:42 pm

I'm with Jesse. It's not even really about talking to the other poster directly, look at things that he says, he's a lost cause pretty much...he doesn't like this team, we get it...he doesn't seem to grasp the fundamentals of the game and why things are happening...there's no context. And in a vacuum, that's fine. Who cares? But you don't want that misinformation spreading really...plus it's better for discussion if the conversation takes a turn towards specifics not just meandering nonsensically around...this invites more poignant discussion instead of mindless blather...

If the discussion can be improved, why not improve it?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby RxBandit66 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:44 pm

Basically, out of 16 teams, only one wins the championship. And those championships hang by a thread. A hot goalie here, a favorable bounce there. There are no teams like the Habs of the 70's or the Oilers of the 80's, and in the cap era, there probably never will be.

Back in 2008 and 2009, expectations were raised to ridiculous levels, and no team can win the Cup every single year. Some posters act like the whole team is garbage, when really only the finer points need tweaked. Yes, the Pens will need health, great play in goal, and a little puck luck to finish on top. But so do all the other teams. The Pens were better on paper a year ago, but they could go deeper into the playoffs this year. I mean, the team won 50 games this season with 500+ man games lost. People say the regular season is meaningless, and that may be true once the playoffs begin, but 50 wins is a lot of wins. They didn't win that many games by being soft, choking crybabies. We'll see how things stack up now that these guys are getting healthy.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby knives of ice on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:42 pm

I just have no idea why any rational coach would not rest stars against a team like the flyers tomorrow. its beyond moronic. especially a game anyone would half a brain in this organization knows we should want to lose.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Nizzy on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:40 pm

Jesse wrote:
Nizzy wrote:The team has simply not looked as good since, and at multiple times they've had just as much talent if not more.


They made it to the ECF last year and were one of four teams playing at the end of the season. That definitely sucks, and is the trademark of a team that doesn't look good.

Got to the 3rd round on pure talent. Yes, that's how stacked that team was.

Nizzy wrote:Bylsma makes me so sick, his stupid systems don't work in this league.


If they didn't work, the team wouldn't win. So you're wrong. I'm half tempted to ask you, mainly because I don't think you can answer, what is the Penguins system? Care to elaborate on their defensive zone and neutral zone set-ups?

The team doesn't win. 20-21 record in the playoffs since 2009 cup win. 20-21 record since Dan had his full first off season to implement his style of play. (3-4 in playoff series)

"if it didn't work, the team wouldn't win. So you're wrong"

What has this team won since 2009? Oh 250 regular season wins? How about the 4 consecutive playoff series losses vs teams ranked below them in terms of playoff seeding?

Bylsma changed the system this year, which I did give him props for. However since changing the system he hasn't changed his ways. Rookies on short leash & not playing the best possible lineups. From the games I've seen this year, from a 5v5 standpoint, when the Penguins enter the zone, their play focuses on keeping the puck around the boards. I don't even want to say its a cycle type play because it's not similar to the 2008-2009. I watch some of these teams like the Bruins and when the team enters the zone 1 of the Bruins B-LINE to the net. They have guys that can be there for more than 1 second. Whenever we have a very weak net presence, and are "pleased" with this around the boards play, we are simply easy to play against. I simply do not know all the actual system names/styles as you probably do.

They don't score consistently during 5v5 play, you won't be winning in the playoffs vs good teams.


Nizzy wrote:You want this Puck Moving team? However you don't want a skilled team? But you want to be puck moving, north south/stretch passes, but for 4 years it was dump and chase? You don't want skilled players, but half the roster is world class talent with a ton of Olympic players? It's like everything Bylsma/Shero are doing has contradicted itself. Really what is the team identity?


Nothing in this paragraph makes much sense to me. Do you think the Penguins are the only team in the league that dump the puck into the zone? Do you realize that every single NHL team, especially on the road, relies on dump and chase at some point or another? I don't even understand what your point is here.

Maybe you missed the quote from Bylsma: "We don't want to be a skilled team" but how can this be when you have 2 of the best centers in the league? The Penguins are a skilled team, with the wrong coach. I realize what you are saying about the dump n chase, however it was the Penguins offense for 4 years, while other teams used it as last resort at certain points in the game. Sorry, you know I have trouble explaining things :)


Nizzy wrote:Win a cup with a solid defensive pairing of Hal Gill/Robert Scuderi to replace it the year after with Goligoski/Leopold to fit Bylsma's style of play. Failures ever since. It seems pretty logical to me what the problems are.


Have you watched Rob Scuderi? He's been awful this year. Hal Gill is a shell of his former self and completely nosedived after we let him go. Gogo fetched us Matt Niskanen AND James Neal, so complaining about him getting ice time here is just completely moronic to me.

Look, everybody gets it man. You've watched 8 games this year and you hate Dan Bylsma. Trust me, we all understand that your expectation is Cup or Bust at every single opportunity. If the Penguins went to the SCF this year and lost in seven games to the Blues, you'd be right in here beating your Dan Bylsma drum, talking systems as if you were able to discuss them with any semblance of validity.

I am not defending Scuderi this year at all, it unfortunately turned out to be a bad signing.

Cup or Bust at every single opportunity = Not true

2010 - They didn't have the defense to win the cup that year, didn't expect the cup.
2011 - Crosby/Malkin out for the season, I mean at that point you really don't have a chance.
2012 - Expected at least great playoff run. Complete embarrassment vs Phila, Bylsma should have been fired.
2013 - Definitely expected to be in the Finals vs Chicago/LA. If we lose vs Boston, okay fine, but not the way they did.

Your last sentence is actually not true. I have said multiple times on these boards that "just losing" to the Boston Bruins in 2013, and Phila Flyers in 2012 were not the problems. It's the embarrassing way they lost. If they slugged it out vs Boston and lost in 6-7 games and scored more than 2 goals, I would be completely different right now.

10 games this year have been enough. I see the same exact weaknesses and problems from the past 4 years where I almost didn't miss a single game.

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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Nizzy on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:35 am

mikey287 wrote:I'm with Jesse. It's not even really about talking to the other poster directly, look at things that he says, he's a lost cause pretty much...he doesn't like this team, we get it...he doesn't seem to grasp the fundamentals of the game and why things are happening...there's no context. And in a vacuum, that's fine. Who cares? But you don't want that misinformation spreading really...plus it's better for discussion if the conversation takes a turn towards specifics not just meandering nonsensically around...this invites more poignant discussion instead of mindless blather...

If the discussion can be improved, why not improve it?


Mikey,

Please explain to my why fundamentals are needed here. Also, please note, I am not disregarding your point about me not being able to grasp fundamentals.

Because here is what I see:

1) Adams, Glass, Pyatt is the worst 4th line in the league. Whether true or not, you have better options: Megna - Vitale - HarryZ/Payerl. You can have 1 of Adams, or Glass. However the combination of those players are terrible for 5v5 hockey.You aren't winning a cup with the current 4th line and Craig Adams getting 8+ minutes of 5v5 hockey per game. Do not have to break down the fundamentals to see it's just a terrible line with bad players.

2) Can't clear the crease. This is a playoff must. How do we expect to get a Wayne Simmons out of the crease in round 1? Do you remember what Dustin Byfuglien did to Luongo over the course of that Hawks vs Canucks series in 2010? How do we plan on getting Lucic out from the net? Franzen? The worst part about this problem is, I don't see the urgency to even care. We need a guy to cross check whoever is in front of Fleury, break their stick right across their back, and get a cross-checking penalty. Why? For no reason at all, JUST BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO WIN STANLEY CUPS.

3) We are too easy to defend in the offensive zone. If Crosby/Malkin don't skate around 5 people to score or set-up the perfect play, this team has nothing but shots from the outside walls/points. I can't break down the fundamentals like you can, but this is what I see man. I know I keep saying Boston, but it's true, they are the team to beat.... they stack 5 in front of Rask and you don't score unless you get up around the net. I don't know how Crosby gets 0 points vs Boston but then Patrick Kane destroys Boston in the cup. It has to be more than just X's and O's right? Could it be that Kane was more worried about winning the cup, and Crosby was more worried about barking at the Bruins? Could it be the career 4th line ahl/grinder coach that doesn't know a thing about offense? Guess not.

As much as you guys think I'm ridiculous, I think the same to you. I don't know how you watched the 2013 Playoff Penguins and can still come here and act like there's no problems. Problems aren't just with "the players" this is an entire ORGANIZATIONAL PROBLEM. The lack of discipline, Shero saying "we are just here for entertainment", wrong, we are here to try and Stanley Cups. They went for the family atmosphere, it's the wrong approach. The coach, the players, they are too comfortable. Crosby didn't cry like this in 2009.

Please be clear, I don't dislike the team. I am starting to DESPISE the entire organization that Mario risked everything to keep.

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent.

The Penguins are wasting talent in combination of not playing the correct players. (younger more talented guys are ready and more hungry to play) Secondly, have a terrible overrated coach who does not hold the world class talent accountable for when they make mistakes = lack of discipline.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:57 am

I agree with with 1 and 2 but "too easy to defend"? No way. We've had a billion (citation needed) injuries and are still a top tier scoring team.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby meow on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:07 am

Nizzy with a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out post. Excuse me while I go have an aneurism.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:20 am

Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I'm with Jesse. It's not even really about talking to the other poster directly, look at things that he says, he's a lost cause pretty much...he doesn't like this team, we get it...he doesn't seem to grasp the fundamentals of the game and why things are happening...there's no context. And in a vacuum, that's fine. Who cares? But you don't want that misinformation spreading really...plus it's better for discussion if the conversation takes a turn towards specifics not just meandering nonsensically around...this invites more poignant discussion instead of mindless blather...

If the discussion can be improved, why not improve it?


Mikey,

Please explain to my why fundamentals are needed here. Also, please note, I am not disregarding your point about me not being able to grasp fundamentals.

Because here is what I see:

1) Adams, Glass, Pyatt is the worst 4th line in the league. Whether true or not, you have better options: Megna - Vitale - HarryZ/Payerl. You can have 1 of Adams, or Glass. However the combination of those players are terrible for 5v5 hockey.You aren't winning a cup with the current 4th line and Craig Adams getting 8+ minutes of 5v5 hockey per game. Do not have to break down the fundamentals to see it's just a terrible line with bad players.

2) Can't clear the crease. This is a playoff must. How do we expect to get a Wayne Simmons out of the crease in round 1? Do you remember what Dustin Byfuglien did to Luongo over the course of that Hawks vs Canucks series in 2010? How do we plan on getting Lucic out from the net? Franzen? The worst part about this problem is, I don't see the urgency to even care. We need a guy to cross check whoever is in front of Fleury, break their stick right across their back, and get a cross-checking penalty. Why? For no reason at all, JUST BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO WIN STANLEY CUPS.

3) We are too easy to defend in the offensive zone. If Crosby/Malkin don't skate around 5 people to score or set-up the perfect play, this team has nothing but shots from the outside walls/points. I can't break down the fundamentals like you can, but this is what I see man. I know I keep saying Boston, but it's true, they are the team to beat.... they stack 5 in front of Rask and you don't score unless you get up around the net. I don't know how Crosby gets 0 points vs Boston but then Patrick Kane destroys Boston in the cup. It has to be more than just X's and O's right? Could it be that Kane was more worried about winning the cup, and Crosby was more worried about barking at the Bruins? Could it be the career 4th line ahl/grinder coach that doesn't know a thing about offense? Guess not.

As much as you guys think I'm ridiculous, I think the same to you. I don't know how you watched the 2013 Playoff Penguins and can still come here and act like there's no problems. Problems aren't just with "the players" this is an entire ORGANIZATIONAL PROBLEM. The lack of discipline, Shero saying "we are just here for entertainment", wrong, we are here to try and Stanley Cups. They went for the family atmosphere, it's the wrong approach. The coach, the players, they are too comfortable. Crosby didn't cry like this in 2009.

Please be clear, I don't dislike the team. I am starting to DESPISE the entire organization that Mario risked everything to keep.

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent.

The Penguins are wasting talent in combination of not playing the correct players. (younger more talented guys are ready and more hungry to play) Secondly, have a terrible overrated coach who does not hold the world class talent accountable for when they make mistakes = lack of discipline.


:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: Great post.

It will be interesting to see, after two days off, how Disco approaches this game. Will he have them, again, try to come out and out hit Philthy thereby playing right into the Cryers hands? Will he continue to try to instill in them to "be a grind team in the offensive zone" with perhaps the softest, most ineffective bottom six among contenders? Or will he adjust before the game even starts and have the Pens back off a bit, trap somewhat and play more for the counterattack?

Will Sid have to carry Sean Couturier around the ice all day, or will the coach get him some decent matchups?? Will Db's defenders again claim that Disco actually wanted this matchup, to shut down the Flyers third line and least offensively gifted center? :face:

Will he dress the timid, passionless, cowardly Scuderi??? Or will Bortuzzo, Engo and/or Despres get the sweater each has earned? Will ineffective Adams get to continue his streak rather than do what is best for the team and for Adams??

Is it 3pm yet???? DROP THE PUCK!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Beveridge on Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:55 am

People asking for Engo to start. Now I know we've officially jumped the shark on here.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby columbia on Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:45 pm

Does Bylsma get canned, if they don't make it to the East finals?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:49 pm

Jacques Martin was behind the bench this past weekend. I expect we'll see a great deal of him these playoffs.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Rylan on Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:36 pm

columbia wrote:Does Bylsma get canned, if they don't make it to the East finals?


I think it really depends on how they go out. If they go out in the 2nd round to Philadelphia in a hard fought 7 game series where giving the nod to either team is an insult to the other, then no I don't think he gets fired.

If they get absolutely outclassed then yes, he gets canned.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Rocco on Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:49 pm

Meesh ‏@HockeyMeesh 17m

Craig Adams was on the ice for 40 more goals against than goals for this season. 40. Next worst was Sutter at 18. #BanAdams


Meesh ‏@HockeyMeesh 2m

Context: those numbers are all situations, including PK and just the forwards. Worst defenseman was Scuderi at -27 (Orpik -20)


Those three players (Adams, Scuderi, Orpik) are three locks to play every night when healthy. Is that bad?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Desiato on Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:18 pm

I have believed major changes would be beneficial since 2012. However, despite that, I think the Pens still have a good shot at the cup. Upsets happen. Injuries happen. Epiphanies occur. A lot can happen.

I fault HCDB for a lot and believe a change should have occurred. Yet, I believe he's a smart man who has the ability and the tools available to figure it out.

I believe in the roster. While there are weak points, the strong points are some of the best in the sport. Scuderi and Orpik should show more value as the game slows down and experience starts to *really* matter.

Let's not talk like the Pens have already been eliminated. It's not the dynasty that was within reach, but it's still a pretty awesome team to follow.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby mikey287 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:35 pm

Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I'm with Jesse. It's not even really about talking to the other poster directly, look at things that he says, he's a lost cause pretty much...he doesn't like this team, we get it...he doesn't seem to grasp the fundamentals of the game and why things are happening...there's no context. And in a vacuum, that's fine. Who cares? But you don't want that misinformation spreading really...plus it's better for discussion if the conversation takes a turn towards specifics not just meandering nonsensically around...this invites more poignant discussion instead of mindless blather...

If the discussion can be improved, why not improve it?


Nizzy wrote:Mikey,

Please explain to my why fundamentals are needed here. Also, please note, I am not disregarding your point about me not being able to grasp fundamentals.


You took the time to put together a rational response, it deserves a response.

Fundamental knowledge of the game is always necessary for discussion of team tactics.

Nizzy wrote:Because here is what I see:

1) Adams, Glass, Pyatt is the worst 4th line in the league. Whether true or not, you have better options: Megna - Vitale - HarryZ/Payerl. You can have 1 of Adams, or Glass. However the combination of those players are terrible for 5v5 hockey.You aren't winning a cup with the current 4th line and Craig Adams getting 8+ minutes of 5v5 hockey per game. Do not have to break down the fundamentals to see it's just a terrible line with bad players.


I have had no problems with Glass this year. Adams and Pyatt have been useless this year. I don't think Glass belongs to be lumped in with them to be honest. Having Vitale, a RHS center, makes Adams completely defunct. Glass is a fine 4th line LWer for almost any team in the league. Fundamental knowledge will still prevail, because it's necessary for proper player evaluation, especially with these types of role players...but I agree. Glass-Vitale-non-Adams would be a fine fourth line.

Nizzy wrote:2) Can't clear the crease. This is a playoff must. How do we expect to get a Wayne Simmons out of the crease in round 1? Do you remember what Dustin Byfuglien did to Luongo over the course of that Hawks vs Canucks series in 2010? How do we plan on getting Lucic out from the net? Franzen? The worst part about this problem is, I don't see the urgency to even care. We need a guy to cross check whoever is in front of Fleury, break their stick right across their back, and get a cross-checking penalty. Why? For no reason at all, JUST BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO WIN STANLEY CUPS.


Let's take note of modern defense and how it works. As I've noted previously, these Pronger/Tkachuk crease battles are largely dead. Teams generally put two defensemen out higher than the guy in front and just block the shot/pass instead of engaging. Constant engagement creates a 4 on 3, which is much bigger advantage to the offense than 5 on 4. How I run things on my PK usually is no different than how a lot of teams run their own (I almost make it sound like I invented this or something...geez...they were first, not me). Strong side shift, back side defenseman picks up the stick of the man in front and walls him out. Pretty straightforward. Our problem is, our most likely crease clearer (Bortuzzo) is also the dumbest player on the rink at any given time...so it's difficult for him to process in time and being that he's not a good skater, it's usually too late to do anything about it. In a dream scenario, he never plays a playoff game for the Penguins.

Once you are engaged in that situation, it's important to remain focused on the task at hand and how the play continues to develop. If Orpik picks up the guy in front as the weak side d-man, it's important to release him if he becomes the strong side d-man again and calls that switch out to his partner. My fear isn't the "crease clearing" it's the discipline and understanding of what that represents and how to execute it properly in short order. Given that this team seems to lack discipline, I worry about that physical alterations becoming distracting and leading to exactly what you described...unnecessary penalties when, likely, already down a man...

Nizzy wrote:3) We are too easy to defend in the offensive zone. If Crosby/Malkin don't skate around 5 people to score or set-up the perfect play, this team has nothing but shots from the outside walls/points. I can't break down the fundamentals like you can, but this is what I see man. I know I keep saying Boston, but it's true, they are the team to beat.... they stack 5 in front of Rask and you don't score unless you get up around the net. I don't know how Crosby gets 0 points vs Boston but then Patrick Kane destroys Boston in the cup. It has to be more than just X's and O's right? Could it be that Kane was more worried about winning the cup, and Crosby was more worried about barking at the Bruins? Could it be the career 4th line ahl/grinder coach that doesn't know a thing about offense? Guess not.


I don't think we're easy to defend. I wish we had more sustained zone time with the usage of the area below the icing line. But I don't think teams look at us and go, "well, this won't be hard..." because we score a lot. As for how Chicago scored and Pittsburgh didn't. It's something I've said multiple times in the past. Attack the Bruins weakness...their defense. Sounds silly given how good they are and weakness is a relative term after all. But think about their defensemen, not very great skaters on the whole, not very great puck movers, many have trouble with small area footwork (Chara, Boychuk, McQuaid). Pucks get below the icing line. Let the best small area player (Crosby) take on that Bruins defense. Not Patrice Bergeron, a perfect nemesis. LD Chara, LW Lucic. Major flaws on both of them. Highly exploitable side of the ice in my eyes. But must be executed properly. Must use proper support triangles for continued attack time. We kept finding ourselves out-numbered at the point of the attack which was ultimately our downfall. 5 on 5 is already advantage defense. Why go at it 2 on 5 or 3 on 5? Doesn't make sense to me. Chicago did a better job of advanced scouting. Understood weaknesses, exploited them.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:39 pm

Mikey is conditioning responses with positive reinforcement. Effective.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Great58 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:24 am

mikey287 wrote: Chicago did a better job of advanced scouting. Understood weaknesses, exploited them.

Mikey, was it really a case of better advanced scouting, or more the case of having more time/game tape to review of the Bruins? What I mean is, it seemed to me that the Bruins evolved through the Playoffs of 2013, so if you prepared to play them as they played against Toronto, that team didn't exist once the ECF started. The Hawks had the luxury of dissecting the Pens/Bruins series to exploit weakness before the series started. If the roles had been reversed, and the Pens faced the Bruins with four Bruins/Hawks game tapes to analyze, we might have approached things differently? I guess this post season could give the best possible answer to that question.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby mikey287 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:43 am

Well, I think that's six of one, half dozen of another just about, Great58. You also can say, well, the Blackhawks kind of stick out in the Campbell Conference a tiny bit because they play that East Coast game almost...they aren't big hitters, they aren't "heavy" and all that...so, they're used to having to find openings on where to attack, they can play either way because they have the luxury of an excellent top-four that can play the whole game in a pinch.

Might we have approached things differently? Hmm, not sure about that one. But that's high cynicism on my part. I don't think, even with a week to prepare, we don't do too much differently against Boston, unfortunately. The adjustments were a little too minor for my liking during the series, I didn't feel they had enough of an impact on where we were faltering. I'm also not an NHL head coach, I might not have done a better job. Almost certainly I would not have.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:47 am

I already knew it was bad, but Rocco's post about the Axis of Evil (Adams, Scuderi, and Orpik) makes the reality even more depressing.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby NashvilleCat on Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:07 am

Great58 wrote:
mikey287 wrote: Chicago did a better job of advanced scouting. Understood weaknesses, exploited them.

Mikey, was it really a case of better advanced scouting, or more the case of having more time/game tape to review of the Bruins? What I mean is, it seemed to me that the Bruins evolved through the Playoffs of 2013, so if you prepared to play them as they played against Toronto, that team didn't exist once the ECF started. The Hawks had the luxury of dissecting the Pens/Bruins series to exploit weakness before the series started. If the roles had been reversed, and the Pens faced the Bruins with four Bruins/Hawks game tapes to analyze, we might have approached things differently? I guess this post season could give the best possible answer to that question.

Are you suggested that we would have made adjustments to our style? I think we're still waiting to get to our game again.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Nizzy on Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:37 am

Mikey,

Thanks for the response.

I can't agree about the front of the net battles not being a thing anymore. You explained it very well, and that's how a team has to play it when they don't have that crease clearing guy. 5 years removed from Gill vs Holmstrom, I still believe it's a large part of playoff success. Both needing a guy in front of the net (which we don't have at all) ((could have been Morrow for us)) or having a guy to help clear the crease for your goalie.

Either way, lets not harp on that point. Good stuff on the Bruins weaknesses, I think what you said was shown by Toronto last year as they almost (probably should have) beaten Boston in the first round.

So you break down all this great stuff on how to beat Boston. Chicago wins in 6 (to be fair, it probably should have gone to game 7), and Pittsburgh gets embarrassed in 4 games.

My logic says Bylsma is a complete failure as a head coach and has lived off Crosby/Malkin's talent. I just hope he is fired so I can calm down around here.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:24 am

Nizzy wrote:Mikey,

Thanks for the response.

I can't agree about the front of the net battles not being a thing anymore. You explained it very well, and that's how a team has to play it when they don't have that crease clearing guy. 5 years removed from Gill vs Holmstrom, I still believe it's a large part of playoff success. Both needing a guy in front of the net (which we don't have at all) ((could have been Morrow for us)) or having a guy to help clear the crease for your goalie.

Either way, lets not harp on that point. Good stuff on the Bruins weaknesses, I think what you said was shown by Toronto last year as they almost (probably should have) beaten Boston in the first round.

So you break down all this great stuff on how to beat Boston. Chicago wins in 6 (to be fair, it probably should have gone to game 7), and Pittsburgh gets embarrassed in 4 games.

My logic says Bylsma is a complete failure as a head coach and has lived off Crosby/Malkin's talent. I just hope he is fired so I can calm down around here.


I worry for your health if Bylsma is canned and this team still loses in the playoffs.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Factorial on Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:46 pm

Nizzy wrote:Mikey,

Thanks for the response.

I can't agree about the front of the net battles not being a thing anymore. You explained it very well, and that's how a team has to play it when they don't have that crease clearing guy. 5 years removed from Gill vs Holmstrom, I still believe it's a large part of playoff success. Both needing a guy in front of the net (which we don't have at all) ((could have been Morrow for us)) or having a guy to help clear the crease for your goalie.

Either way, lets not harp on that point. Good stuff on the Bruins weaknesses, I think what you said was shown by Toronto last year as they almost (probably should have) beaten Boston in the first round.

So you break down all this great stuff on how to beat Boston. Chicago wins in 6 (to be fair, it probably should have gone to game 7), and Pittsburgh gets embarrassed in 4 games.

My logic says Bylsma is a complete failure as a head coach and has lived off Crosby/Malkin's talent. I just hope he is fired so I can calm down around here.


You could try Xanax.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Great58 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:49 pm

NashvilleCat wrote:
Great58 wrote:
mikey287 wrote: Chicago did a better job of advanced scouting. Understood weaknesses, exploited them.

Mikey, was it really a case of better advanced scouting, or more the case of having more time/game tape to review of the Bruins? What I mean is, it seemed to me that the Bruins evolved through the Playoffs of 2013, so if you prepared to play them as they played against Toronto, that team didn't exist once the ECF started. The Hawks had the luxury of dissecting the Pens/Bruins series to exploit weakness before the series started. If the roles had been reversed, and the Pens faced the Bruins with four Bruins/Hawks game tapes to analyze, we might have approached things differently? I guess this post season could give the best possible answer to that question.

Are you suggested that we would have made adjustments to our style? I think we're still waiting to get to our game again.

Well, we did make adjustments to our style. Game 3 was clearly a different approach than game 2, and the series might have ended up (somewhat) differently had Jagr not hooked Malkin in OT to set up the turnover game winner.

Had we seen the Bruins team that showed up in the ECF on tape beforehand, might we not have dug ourselves the hole we did in games 1 and 2? The Bruins clearly didn't play Toronto the way they did us, and the Rangers series game tapes probably underestimated what the Bruins were doing because of the way the Rangers approached the game. IMO.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby pens_srq on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:38 pm

I think the comments of former players in this article are indicative of what the Pens try to do.
http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/5925569-74/penguins-system-nhl#axzz2yzHxfRpf

As an organization, the Pens have hated trapping since the mid and late 90's were dominated by the Devils trapping system. They have been committed to playing what they consider to be 'exciting' hockey. And I have to admit, there is nothing more inducing of heart attack hockey than their high risk, high reward system. But what I don't ever see are any situational changes to their system. OK. There are changes but they aren't big enough. The Red Wings would open it up a little, get a lead and then clamp down with a stifling trap. The Pens, and I think a lot of people have pointed it out, are kinda thick headed about it when their system isn't working. Their 3rd and 4th lines obviously have difficulty handling the system. It's unforgiving nature does not help when the players on those lines haven't played together very much to develop chemistry either. There was a time under Therrien when things weren't going well with the system, so he had them play a trap. It helped. I think the issue is that desperate times call for drastic measures. When your system is getting stomped on by the other team's system, revert to something more basic and see if that helps. The minor tweaks to the Pens systems during the playoffs are as frustrating as DB's inability to pull a goaltender or call a time out for the first 3 years of his tenure as head coach. They haven't been enough. But he is learning... slowly. Yanking Fleury last year was the best decision he has made as a head coach IMO. I'm hoping Jacques Martin's influence can kick in this year and help. To me it seems to be absurd to spend all the time they obviously do on face-off plays and not have a way to throw a trap or a more conservative system when the situation arises. It's precisely this that leads to them blowing all kinds of 3rd period leads this year.

And for the love of God, if Fleury gives up a goal on the first shot of the game yank him. Not because every goalie in that situation should be pulled, but because every time it happens to Fleury it gets in his head and he loses it.
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