The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey Team

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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Pavel Bure on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:12 pm

Shero for years now has gotten away from his mantra of making this team hard to play against. We've had big splashes at trade deadlines and signings in free agency but none in the past couple years have made this team harder to play against. Remember the first couple years of the Shero era. The Pens signed players that brought "jam" and "grit" to the lower lines. Yeah the star players didn't have greatness on their wings but greatness isn't what is needed there. This team needed to get tougher. That didn't happen this year, or last year, or the year before. The Penguins have become a finesse team that hopes it's star players can perform constantly. This is not the way to build a winning team... I guess we'll really see in the playoffs but it's obvious that bigger, stronger, more disciplined teams will eat the Pens for breakfast.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Digitalgypsy66 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:14 pm

tfrizz wrote:
DelPen wrote:
meow wrote:So you want the top-to-bottom most talented team in the league to play a chip and chase, 1995 Devils style game?


I'd take the 2007-2009 Therrien style game without Therrien as the coach. Not sure if that's possible though.


It isn't with Bylsma in charge.

Another component is that the 2009 Penguins had a Conn Smythe trophy winner on an entry level contract. Letang and Staal were also on entry level deals (Alex Goligoski was making more money than Letang for some reason).

That's a big deal.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:16 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:Shero for years now has gotten away from his mantra of making this team hard to play against. We've had big splashes at trade deadlines and signings in free agency but none in the past couple years have made this team harder to play against. Remember the first couple years of the Shero era. The Pens signed players that brought "jam" and "grit" to the lower lines. Yeah the star players didn't have greatness on their wings but greatness isn't what is needed there. This team needed to get tougher. That didn't happen this year, or last year, or the year before. The Penguins have become a finesse team that hopes it's star players can perform constantly. This is not the way to build a winning team... I guess we'll really see in the playoffs but it's obvious that bigger, stronger, more disciplined teams will eat the Pens for breakfast.



:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby TheHammer24 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:28 pm

shmenguin wrote:Bergeron owned Sid last year. Sid needs to get away from Bergeron. Seems pretty simple.

This line matching thing isn't an issue...until it is. We're fortunate it didn't bite us in 09 when Sid was totally neutered by Babcock's matchups, just like last year. So it's generally overblown, but you need to have the ability to acquire breathing room for your stars, even if it's only for a little while.

I'll take a lack of continuity over the junky crap we've seen too often from sid's line once things get real.

You're looking at it from reverse. It's easy to match the best defensive center in the league against the best player in the league, when the players who are deprived ice time aren't great. Sitting Sid so he can get away from Bergeron just results in Bergeron sitting too. So now, you've just matched Boston's first line against your third line. That seems desirable, right? No. The end result is Sid gets less ice time, their first line gets more ice time, and your third line gets more ice time. That's not desirable. You want to maximize Sid/Geno's ice time. Why sit them "to avoid" Bergeron.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby The U on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:34 pm

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Shero for years now has gotten away from his mantra of making this team hard to play against. We've had big splashes at trade deadlines and signings in free agency but none in the past couple years have made this team harder to play against. Remember the first couple years of the Shero era. The Pens signed players that brought "jam" and "grit" to the lower lines. Yeah the star players didn't have greatness on their wings but greatness isn't what is needed there. This team needed to get tougher. That didn't happen this year, or last year, or the year before. The Penguins have become a finesse team that hopes it's star players can perform constantly. This is not the way to build a winning team... I guess we'll really see in the playoffs but it's obvious that bigger, stronger, more disciplined teams will eat the Pens for breakfast.



:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:



Agreed.

However, he did try to make the team tougher last year by acquiring Iginla, Morrow, Murray. Those guys all were brought on for a number of reasons, 1 of which was their ability to play physical.

This year, not so much. Probably the softest Pens team since Craig Patrick was running things. I guess there wasn't enough money to upgrade this offseason and at the deadline we went for "2 way players" as opposed to guys that excel at playing tough/physical hockey.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Jesse on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:48 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Bergeron owned Sid last year. Sid needs to get away from Bergeron. Seems pretty simple.

This line matching thing isn't an issue...until it is. We're fortunate it didn't bite us in 09 when Sid was totally neutered by Babcock's matchups, just like last year. So it's generally overblown, but you need to have the ability to acquire breathing room for your stars, even if it's only for a little while.

I'll take a lack of continuity over the junky crap we've seen too often from sid's line once things get real.

You're looking at it from reverse. It's easy to match the best defensive center in the league against the best player in the league, when the players who are deprived ice time aren't great. Sitting Sid so he can get away from Bergeron just results in Bergeron sitting too. So now, you've just matched Boston's first line against your third line. That seems desirable, right? No. The end result is Sid gets less ice time, their first line gets more ice time, and your third line gets more ice time. That's not desirable. You want to maximize Sid/Geno's ice time. Why sit them "to avoid" Bergeron.


A lot of times this is what happens against Toronto. RC is so hyped to get Phaneuf out against Crosby that he completely neuters his own defense in the process.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby pcm on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:56 pm

The difference between those early years and these recent ones is that the organization had developed a hungry group of young supporting players to complement Sid and Geno (Talbot, Staal, Scuderi, Malone, Letang, Orpik, Kennedy). Shero's task then was to bring in a few supporting vets to round out the team.

Only now are we are starting to see some other young guys step up and take solid complinetary roles on this team. For too long has Shero backfilled the roster with vets while dB marginalizes the young guys. I know this is an old song and tune for some of you to hear, but it's true. Obviously drafting in later rounds puts the organization at a disadvantage, but so does giving away picks like Halloween candy.

Engelland and Vitale are the only 2 players on our team we've developed into fulltime NHL'ers (at the start of this season) since the cup. 4 years and that's all we have to show for it. That's sad. The next crop is looking bright... Maatta, Despres, Bortuzzo, Gibbons, Bennett, Megna. But even still, only 2 or 3 of those will actually play in the playoffs. Developing these guys will be the key to the success of the team.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DesertPenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:13 pm

pcm wrote:I wonder what would have happened last night if Vitale and Engelland were dressed on the 4th line? Certainly the loss of Bortuzzo wouldn't have been as dramatic, but I think also that this team would not have gotten pushed around the way it did in the second when SJ started to impose their will.

We'll see how this team responds tonight against another "heavy" team.


I do have an issue with Vitale sitting, but getting him in the lineup means dropping Pyatt, which probably actually makes us smaller.

I hope Goc on the 4th line is only temporary, or at the very least someone (Pyatt) is sat down for Vitale to rejoin the lineup. We need his energy in the bottom 6.

I wonder, if Bort is out for any period of time, if we will see Dumolin or Harrington up, or if Engo will simply take his place.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby RxBandit66 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:14 pm

pcm wrote:The difference between those early years and these recent ones is that the organization had developed a hungry group of young supporting players to complement Sid and Geno (Talbot, Staal, Scuderi, Malone, Letang, Orpik, Kennedy). Shero's task then was to bring in a few supporting vets to round out the team.

Only now are we are starting to see some other young guys step up and take solid complinetary roles on this team. For too long has Shero backfilled the roster with vets while dB marginalizes the young guys. I know this is an old song and tune for some of you to hear, but it's true. Obviously drafting in later rounds puts the organization at a disadvantage, but so does giving away picks like Halloween candy.

Engelland and Vitale are the only 2 players on our team we've developed into fulltime NHL'ers (at the start of this season) since the cup. 4 years and that's all we have to show for it. That's sad. The next crop is looking bright... Maatta, Despres, Bortuzzo, Gibbons, Bennett, Megna. But even still, only 2 or 3 of those will actually play in the playoffs. Developing these guys will be the key to the success of the team.


:thumb: This x 1000
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby shmenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:20 pm

There are other guys... They just aren't on the team anymore.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby pcm on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:23 pm

Sitting Pyatt would only make us smaller in the literal sense. But not at all in the figurative sense. The guy plays like a giant wet rag out there. Of course, he had a decent game last night. But that was the first time I've seen him contribute something since his first week on the team.

Vitale plays the game with speed, aggresion, and hunger. He may not be the smartest guy out there, but he's an ideal "energy" 4th liner, ie, he more often than not contributes something each shift.

My lineup would be:

Kunitz-Crosby-Stempniak
JJ-Malkin-Neal
Goc-Sutter-Megna
Glass-Vitale-Engelland

Adams can take Engelland's spot if Bortuzzo's out. And then Bennett can work his way back into the lineup...
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:24 pm

DesertPenguin wrote:
pcm wrote:I wonder what would have happened last night if Vitale and Engelland were dressed on the 4th line? Certainly the loss of Bortuzzo wouldn't have been as dramatic, but I think also that this team would not have gotten pushed around the way it did in the second when SJ started to impose their will.

We'll see how this team responds tonight against another "heavy" team.


I do have an issue with Vitale sitting, but getting him in the lineup means dropping Pyatt, which probably actually makes us smaller.

I hope Goc on the 4th line is only temporary, or at the very least someone (Pyatt) is sat down for Vitale to rejoin the lineup. We need his energy in the bottom 6.

I wonder, if Bort is out for any period of time, if we will see Dumolin or Harrington up, or if Engo will simply take his place.


Pyatt has been getting time on the 3rd line, so adding Vitale means not dressing Craig Adams, not Pyatt. Now that Goc is on the roster, Vitale might not find the ice again this year.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby jimjom on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:32 pm

I endorse PCM's line suggestion. Also, can't agree more with the OP
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:38 pm

I've been complaining about the backfilling for what seems like a decade now. They should be graduating one or two roster spots a year(one or two when everyone is healthy, not 1 or 2 if there are one or two injuries) from the minors and then if they need to replacing them come playoff time. Not saying they give someone a job out of camp, but sitting on a couple every day spots that they're going to give development time to. They're still barely doing it now and they have 2 lines(this can be read as players) that could each carry the team into the playoff by themselves. Its pretty inexcusable. Penguins fans like to make fun of the Flyers for never rebuilding and just trying to buy their way past rebuilds, but the Pens are basically doing the exact same thing, and suffering the exact same consequences over the past several years. They're just doing it without blatantly awful contracts.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby SoupOrSam on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:09 pm

...and for as much as we all cry about that craptastic boston series let's not forget just how close those games actually were for the most part. the first goal wins ideology speaks volumes for a pit/bos series.

we both like to play tight and wait for the other to mess up. what sucks, and ive said it i think like 5 times now in the last year is just how brutal that call on cooke was for that 5min major. wasnt even boarding imo. that set the tone for the series imo... couple that with the complete collapse of any sort of powerplay since they make or break these kinds of games and thats what happened imo.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby shmenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:12 pm

SoupOrSam wrote:...and for as much as we all cry about that craptastic boston series let's not forget just how close those games actually were for the most part. the first goal wins ideology speaks volumes for a pit/bos series.

we both like to play tight and wait for the other to mess up. what sucks, and ive said it i think like 5 times now in the last year is just how brutal that call on cooke was for that 5min major. wasnt even boarding imo. that set the tone for the series imo... couple that with the complete collapse of any sort of powerplay since they make or break these kinds of games and thats what happened imo.


let's not forget we scored 2 goals in 4 games. that series wasn't close.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby SoupOrSam on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:18 pm

shmenguin wrote:
SoupOrSam wrote:...and for as much as we all cry about that craptastic boston series let's not forget just how close those games actually were for the most part. the first goal wins ideology speaks volumes for a pit/bos series.

we both like to play tight and wait for the other to mess up. what sucks, and ive said it i think like 5 times now in the last year is just how brutal that call on cooke was for that 5min major. wasnt even boarding imo. that set the tone for the series imo... couple that with the complete collapse of any sort of powerplay since they make or break these kinds of games and thats what happened imo.


let's not forget we scored 2 goals in 4 games. that series wasn't close.


with the exception of the retarded meltdown of game 2.... i thought the other games could have went either way. boston just managed to score first. so... i guess i just saw it differently.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby shmenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:29 pm

considering the historic nature of their ineptitude, the burden of proof is on your shoulders here, which is why i found the "let's not forget" line a little too confident.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby guiner on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:42 pm

I guess we lost last night.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby penny lane on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:44 pm

SoupOrSam wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
SoupOrSam wrote:...and for as much as we all cry about that craptastic boston series let's not forget just how close those games actually were for the most part. the first goal wins ideology speaks volumes for a pit/bos series.

we both like to play tight and wait for the other to mess up. what sucks, and ive said it i think like 5 times now in the last year is just how brutal that call on cooke was for that 5min major. wasnt even boarding imo. that set the tone for the series imo... couple that with the complete collapse of any sort of powerplay since they make or break these kinds of games and thats what happened imo.


let's not forget we scored 2 goals in 4 games. that series wasn't close.


with the exception of the retarded meltdown of game 2.... i thought the other games could have went either way. boston just managed to score first. so... i guess i just saw it differently.


Game 2 at home against Boston, pens came out like Zombies in Night of the Living Dead.
IN the play-offs , some nights, the pens are tight. Wrapped up so tightly.
They peed away a chance to equal that series and to move on.
AS they know, conference final appearances don't happen every year. Yes, I am over last year. :? :o
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby wondermoose on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:44 pm

I'm sad to see Pyatt look so slow. I thought having a bigger body, regardless of whether he hits with it, would be useful for forechecking and whatnot. I'd just assume play Engo as forward and let him run wild on some defensemen. Maybe call up Harry Z for some speed and hitting. I don't know. I'm so sad to see this team look small, slow, and scared.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby farnham16 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:48 pm

No morning skate today eh? Yeah, that is a pretty long flight from San Jose to Anaheim. And the boys really got hit last night. Better not overwork them.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby TheHammer24 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:21 pm

A morning skate on the morning before the back end of back-to-backs make no sense. Let's stop panicking, yinzers.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DelPen on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:25 pm

farnham16 wrote:No morning skate today eh? Yeah, that is a pretty long flight from San Jose to Anaheim. And the boys really got hit last night. Better not overwork them.

There's hardly ever morning skates on back to back games let alone on the road.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Rylan on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:33 pm

This country club atmosphere is getting embarrassing anymore.
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