The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey Team

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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:55 am

shmenguin wrote:i'm much more concerned about his personnel choices than his in-game coaching. he's seriously a dimwit with the choices he makes.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby The U on Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:59 am

shmenguin wrote:i'm much more concerned about his personnel choices than his in-game coaching.


This. The fact that the best players don't dress should be #1 on everybody's list of complaints.

Looking back over the past 2 years.....Should Adams ever dress over Vitale or Megna or Engelland at forward? Should Engelland ever dress at D over Despres or Bortuzzo?

An inferior player is dressing over better players every single game. That is my #1 Bylsma complaint.

#2 would be his inability to roll with multiple strategies and systems during a playoff run. You need to be able to play like 3 or 4 different systems and styles depending on the opponent. We seem to have 1 gameplan and no ability to adjust.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:26 am

The lineup choices are baffling and infuriating, but it is his inability to have any positive affect on the team when things start to go badly that is his worst failure. He simply has no ability to get the team back on track when the game starts to go off the rails.

Last night they were up 2-0 with his misfit toys lineup. But when SJ turned it around and tied it at 2-2, there was that deer in the headlights, blank expression on his face again. The broadcast actually caught it right before the Pens retook the lead to make it 3-2. Bylsma looked completely baffled and then, after the Pens scored, he immediately jutted out his jaw and looked confident and defiant again.

Add to that his failure to hold anyone that is not a rookie accountable for anything, and he is just a pathetic leader. Even his post game interviews clearly review he has very limited ability to think quickly and speak authoritatively. He is weak and the guys sense it. His time has passed with this group. RS needs to act.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby wondermoose on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:26 am

My only and real big beef I got with bylsma is how his game plan had changed. There's no more"grinding these ******** down"mentality. He's allowed the team to get Charmin soffff, no speed, no grit, no resilience. When this team goes down they go down hard, and that's a horrific characteristic for an "elite" team to have.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DelPen on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:27 am

I'm even more concerned about what appears to be a complete lack of preperation in practice. In game decisions shouldn't kill you if have a solid ganme plan you prepare before the game starts. Can anyone say they see any preperation especially for big games now or in the last 4 years?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DelPen on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:29 am

wondermoose wrote:My only and real big beef I got with bylsma is how his game plan had changed. There's no more"grinding these ******** down"mentality. He's allowed the team to get Charmin soffff, no speed, no grit, no resilience. When this team goes down they go down hard, and that's a horrific characteristic for an "elite" team to have.


Well part of that is on Shero. Not sure who exactly Bylsma should put together to grind the other team down with this line up. But it's a perfect storm of being soft this year where we couldn't get good grinders or even keep them because the cap went down.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby meow on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:31 am

wondermoose wrote:My only and real big beef I got with bylsma is how his game plan had changed. There's no more"grinding these ******** down"mentality. He's allowed the team to get Charmin soffff, no speed, no grit, no resilience. When this team goes down they go down hard, and that's a horrific characteristic for an "elite" team to have.

You want Gibbons, Kobasew, Jokinen, and Pyatt to grind people down?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:33 am

wondermoose wrote:My only and real big beef I got with bylsma is how his game plan had changed. There's no more"grinding these ******** down"mentality. He's allowed the team to get Charmin soffff, no speed, no grit, no resilience. When this team goes down they go down hard, and that's a horrific characteristic for an "elite" team to have.


This is on Shero. If you want to play an aggressive forecheck, you need big guys that skate and like to hit. They don't have that and Shero hasn't done much to bring that element in.

That being said, the coach should adjust and not try the same approach with a small, average speed group of forwards. Bylsma can't and won't.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:34 am

meow wrote:
wondermoose wrote:My only and real big beef I got with bylsma is how his game plan had changed. There's no more"grinding these ******** down"mentality. He's allowed the team to get Charmin soffff, no speed, no grit, no resilience. When this team goes down they go down hard, and that's a horrific characteristic for an "elite" team to have.

You want Gibbons, Kobasew, Jokinen, and Pyatt to grind people down?



:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

There seems to be a functional disconnect in the way that Bylsma wants to play and the types of guys Shero has been bringing in. :evil:
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:36 am

DelPen wrote:I'm even more concerned about what appears to be a complete lack of preperation in practice. In game decisions shouldn't kill you if have a solid ganme plan you prepare before the game starts. Can anyone say they see any preperation especially for big games now or in the last 4 years?


Practice? You mean play time?

Ever notice how lousy Bylsma's teams come out when they have a few days off and time to prepare for the next opponent?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DelPen on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:38 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:There seems to be a functional disconnect in the way that Bylsma wants to play and the types of guys Shero has been bringing in. :evil:


Yet Vitale and Engellend sat last night, both would have been better than Pyatt, who is slower than everyone except Adams, and of course also Adams. Vitale especially seems like the perfect guy to play in this system.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby shmenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:44 am

vitale isn't as disciplined or heady as the other guys on the ice. they kept him off the PK for a reason last year. so i think there is a method to the madness there.

with that said, vitale should be in the lineup, despite not being a harvard graduate.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby RxBandit66 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:00 pm

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
meow wrote:
wondermoose wrote:My only and real big beef I got with bylsma is how his game plan had changed. There's no more"grinding these ******** down"mentality. He's allowed the team to get Charmin soffff, no speed, no grit, no resilience. When this team goes down they go down hard, and that's a horrific characteristic for an "elite" team to have.

You want Gibbons, Kobasew, Jokinen, and Pyatt to grind people down?



:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

There seems to be a functional disconnect in the way that Bylsma wants to play and the types of guys Shero has been bringing in. :evil:


Agree 100% on this, and I didn't get into it in my OP because a large portion of that is on Shero. Every team has some degree of personnel issues, but the Pens have developed a disturbing trend in the playoffs of losing to inferior opponents. A coach's job is to get the most out of the players he's got. Has Bylsma done that with Bortuzzo? Or Despres? Bylsma is 20-22 in the playoffs since 2009, with not only two of the best players in the world, but a management team that spends to the cap each year, and a team full of guys who have won championships before. And yet, they mentally unravel, even in meaningless regular season games in December. How many 2-goal leads have been blown under Bylsma? How few times have they came back and won after being down? How many times have they played only 20-30 quality minutes?

If Bylsma is this great guy, and the team is all happy and friends in the locker room, and everyone gets along and buys into the system, then why do they unravel so easily?? Eventually this has to fall on the head coach.
Last edited by RxBandit66 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby indian on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:02 pm

* Adams has lost a step and little bit of composure, he was borderline nhler anyways.
* Vitale adds a lot with his speed.
* Engellend is terrible moving side by side while skating backward but is speedy, solid on boardplay, has a pretty good shot and RH so ideal for a right winger.
* Sid is gassed and shows it, DB needs to reduce Olympian minutes so that they get a chance to recuperate.
* Team always starts solid with a lot of energy but the play gradually drops off during the game.
* Bryan Gibbons is not an answer for Sid's line, may be an effective scoring option on third line when he is not going against top opposition defense.
* Sid needs a stable presence on his Right wing. Put someone there for 10 games and let them adjust before playoffs, if still not good try other player for 10 games.
* Orpik/Scuderi based on last 15 games or so should play 3rd pairing (15-17 minutes a game).
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:03 pm

Yea i posted this elsewhere but I really think this is the best they could do;

Kunitz/Crosby/Jokinen - adds a competent top 6 to play with Sid, Jussi can Finnish from the right side and provide a back up faceoff option and defensive conscience

Goc/Malkin/Neal - I love Jokinen there and wouldn't hesitate to go back to it, but JJ is needed elsewhere and is the Pens second best option at RW. Goc replaces JJ's defensive presence, provides a strong faceoff capability and perhaps some of what Kunitz had added to this trio.

Glass/Sutter/Stempniak - enough to be effective? Glass is in the top 9 on this team and hopefully Stempniak can add some offense.

Pyatt/Vitale/Engelland - some size, some grit.. maybe insert a Megna against faster teams.

Goc more than makes up for Adams pk, he is no longer needed.

This puts each guy closest to his abilities and in the best position to succeed, in my humble opinion.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby indian on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:07 pm

* One last thing, team should focus on sustained time in offensive zone, not scoring or shots on goals.
* Players should be judged on offensive zone time, defense on preventing odd man rushes.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Jesse on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:21 pm

I see a lot of people in this thread saying "Dan Bylsma needs to save Sidney Crosby from guys like Patrice Bergeron."

Maybe, just maybe, being the best player in the world and all, Sidney Crosby has to be a little better himself?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby sil on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:26 pm

Jesse wrote:I see a lot of people in this thread saying "Dan Bylsma needs to save Sidney Crosby from guys like Patrice Bergeron."

Maybe, just maybe, being the best player in the world and all, Sidney Crosby has to be a little better himself?


"(Said in a monotone robotic voice) But media says that Sidney Crosby is the best player in the world. Why should Crosby have to get better if he is the best"?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Jesse on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:26 pm

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The lineup choices are baffling and infuriating, but it is his inability to have any positive affect on the team when things start to go badly that is his worst failure. He simply has no ability to get the team back on track when the game starts to go off the rails.

Last night they were up 2-0 with his misfit toys lineup. But when SJ turned it around and tied it at 2-2, there was that deer in the headlights, blank expression on his face again. The broadcast actually caught it right before the Pens retook the lead to make it 3-2. Bylsma looked completely baffled and then, after the Pens scored, he immediately jutted out his jaw and looked confident and defiant again.

Add to that his failure to hold anyone that is not a rookie accountable for anything, and he is just a pathetic leader. Even his post game interviews clearly review he has very limited ability to think quickly and speak authoritatively. He is weak and the guys sense it. His time has passed with this group. RS needs to act.


Are you a psychologist?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby columbia on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:28 pm

Jesse wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The lineup choices are baffling and infuriating, but it is his inability to have any positive affect on the team when things start to go badly that is his worst failure. He simply has no ability to get the team back on track when the game starts to go off the rails.

Last night they were up 2-0 with his misfit toys lineup. But when SJ turned it around and tied it at 2-2, there was that deer in the headlights, blank expression on his face again. The broadcast actually caught it right before the Pens retook the lead to make it 3-2. Bylsma looked completely baffled and then, after the Pens scored, he immediately jutted out his jaw and looked confident and defiant again.

Add to that his failure to hold anyone that is not a rookie accountable for anything, and he is just a pathetic leader. Even his post game interviews clearly review he has very limited ability to think quickly and speak authoritatively. He is weak and the guys sense it. His time has passed with this group. RS needs to act.


Are you a psychologist?


The better question is: how does he have access to the team and the locker room and know that DB is such a terrible leader?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby shmenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:30 pm

Jesse wrote:I see a lot of people in this thread saying "Dan Bylsma needs to save Sidney Crosby from guys like Patrice Bergeron."

Maybe, just maybe, being the best player in the world and all, Sidney Crosby has to be a little better himself?


part of you being a knowledgeable source is that your posts tend to resonate, so while i can't speak for others, i tend to remember your opinions. price of fame, i guess. so with that said, this is a different tune than you were singing last june, where it was bergeron's magnificence that shut crosby down, as opposed to sid under-performing.

i guess that probably means the truth is somewhere in between.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Tico Rick on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:32 pm

Carry on.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby sil on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:32 pm

Not speaking for Jesse, but Bergeron's ability is there regardless. It's on Sid to overcome it...and, frankly, he's not at all.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Bioshock on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:32 pm

columbia wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The lineup choices are baffling and infuriating, but it is his inability to have any positive affect on the team when things start to go badly that is his worst failure. He simply has no ability to get the team back on track when the game starts to go off the rails.

Last night they were up 2-0 with his misfit toys lineup. But when SJ turned it around and tied it at 2-2, there was that deer in the headlights, blank expression on his face again. The broadcast actually caught it right before the Pens retook the lead to make it 3-2. Bylsma looked completely baffled and then, after the Pens scored, he immediately jutted out his jaw and looked confident and defiant again.

Add to that his failure to hold anyone that is not a rookie accountable for anything, and he is just a pathetic leader. Even his post game interviews clearly review he has very limited ability to think quickly and speak authoritatively. He is weak and the guys sense it. His time has passed with this group. RS needs to act.


Are you a psychologist?


The better question is: how does he have access to the team and the locker room and know that DB is such a terrible leader?


My thoughts exactly.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Jesse on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:32 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Jesse wrote:I see a lot of people in this thread saying "Dan Bylsma needs to save Sidney Crosby from guys like Patrice Bergeron."

Maybe, just maybe, being the best player in the world and all, Sidney Crosby has to be a little better himself?


part of you being a knowledgeable source is that your posts tend to resonate, so while i can't speak for others, i tend to remember your opinions. price of fame, i guess. so with that said, this is a different tune than you were singing last june, where it was bergeron's magnificence that shut crosby down, as opposed to sid under-performing.

i guess that probably means the truth is somewhere in between.


Well, I have had a lot of time to reflect on that, and a lot of people have said some things to me that really made me second guess myself.

I think a reality that either I refused to accept or just flat out chose not to is that the two superstars on this team just simply haven't performed well since they lifted the Stanley Cup. Montreal, Philly, Boston. They just went ice cold. It's a real head-scratcher.

Bergeron is good. But I don't think Bylsma should have to change his entire gameplan to get Sid away from him if Sid is indeed the best player on the planet.

Then again I just might be an idiot. Who knows. You're probably right about the truth, though.
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